| Author | Message | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1607 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jackob, Thanks for your comments. You are so right about most everything you posted above. Please allow me one important clarification to my post above. I am not in any way trying to be divisive, because that may be the appearance. Let us be clear, all of us who are interested in exposing Adventism have the same eventual goal--and that is to bring as many people as possible out of a system that was founded on deception, that definitely started out as a cult (just like WWCG). How many of us though would deny that even those two groups, SDA and WCG, even though they are definitely not just another Christian church, yet at the same time, I have to amend my views, and admit that God did do some very important work in both of those groups. Speaking now for myself in SDA, I was brought up memorizing Ellen verses right along side Bible verses. To listen to baseball games was considered idolatry, because EGW forbade competitive sports. Yet, somehow, I was exposed to the real Jesus thru my parents, and at many truly gospel campmeetings where I know my heart was convicted to follow Jesus, but I resisted during those years, maybe because I didn't like the way Christianity was being taught in my very strict home and cultic schools. But when the largest church in Adventism at LLU, has a pastor who preaches sermons that I listen to, and one day, I thought KSGN radio had dropped SDA programming for evangelical programming, but, no it was Randy Roberts. I am not ready to accuse him of willfully deceiving me. The largest church in Adventism is teaching the book of Galatians. Both John Stott (a great evangelical even though he believes in annihilationism--but is highly regarded by conservative Reformed scholars anyway) and Lee Strobel (the author of Case for Christ) was favorably received, and preached a great sermon at the University Church. Do you think he would be received this way in a Kingdom Hall? That is why I cannot follow along and call SDA a non-Christian cult. I cannot answer to the Lord in a clear conscience on that. I have to agree with a pastor who I consider an authority, and whose opinion I trust who said "However, it is clear to me that Adventism, for all its problems, is in a very different category than the above (meaning CS, LDS, and JW), which are at their core, utterly heterodox." Adventism has many elements such as those core folks who post on Revival sermons, who are clearly in the cult camp with JW,s etc. That historical side of Adventism belongs there--I agree. So, if, someone believes the basic 28 fundamentals, I cannot consider that a cult. If your beliefs are those, and if you are truly born again, then you can still be a Christian. It is impossible to reform a cult. That is why SDA and WCG will never be true Christian or evangelical churches. Here is an interesting link to John MacArthur where he gives his official position on the SDA church. He is not sympathetic to SDAs and he acknowledges that SDA started out as a cult, but he refuses to call them a cult now. He is considerably kinder to SDAs than he is to Catholicism on a recent tape I circulated to many of you on this forum. www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/70-24-11.htm I am totally supportive of all here on FAF. I just think that there are some questions that should be answered as to how we represent Adventism. I see nothing wrong however in expressing opinions that SDA is a cult. I believed that too, and it would have been helpful for me to have an excellent forum like this to discuss my honest beliefs at the time. Most of what goes on here is extremely valuable, and I value everyone's opinions here. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1214 Registered: 10-2004  |
"Do you think he would be received this way in a Kingdom Hall?" Stan, the cults are getting more ecumenical these days. Didn't you see the quote I posted before from the former Christian Science forum? Here it is again:
Then a current CS member posted and said that he thought the ecumenism was great. If SDA used to be a cult, then it still is--because it has not changed. The SDA President Jan Paulsen himself said that the SDA church has not changed any of their doctrines. And you yourself equated SDA and RCC, Stan. So is the SDA church a "front for the kingdom of Satan" as you've quoted MacArthur as saying about RCC?  Now, back to your previous posts above, Stan. How can you dimiss the scholars and former SDA Pastors who do call SDA a cult? (And the percentages don't matter--the majority can be wrong. But if we go by majority, how do you explain that before Walter Martin's book, basically all of Christianity called SDA a cult?) You said that it bothers you that we say that certain scholars/former SDA Pastors are wrong. But you are saying that the other scholars/former SDA Pastors (who do call SDA a cult) are wrong. So if we take either side of the issue, we have to say that some of the scholars/former SDA Pastors are wrong, simply because they disagree with each other! Even Hank Hanegraaf admits that Evangelicals have been very divided on this issue. I do want to reply to more of your second to last post, Stan, but I thought I would just post this first. Anyway, as long as we (those of us on both sides) can keep the discussion friendly and civil, I think we can handle the disagreements that arise on this forum. I hope there won't be a need for any of us to "run and hide." Hopefully we can all be able to say what we believe and can respect each other's view. Jeremy | ||
| Artman29 Registered user Username: Artman29 Post Number: 32 Registered: 4-2006 |
I still stand to what I said before. SDA is a cult. It is lead by fear and anxiety. It hasn't changed and in my opinion as long as EGW is the main source of inpiration, it never will. Any group that uses guilt and fear to entangle innocent people for a religious cause, is in my opinion a cult. When your identity is taken away and you feel helpless and vulnerable there has been brain washing involved. One thing I have learned, just because millions of people are following some religious oranization it does not mean that it is on the level. Once more, God does not motivate us by guilt or spiritual pressure. He loves us and wants us to be happy. Legalism is not a happy loving lifestyle. It is full of fear and sure there are going to be people that say that SDA is not a cult but that is possibly because they are scared to say otherwise. Salvation is a gift and the only thing we have to do is accept it. EGW says that we have to do so much more and this just is not the case. For the first time in my life I am understanding the true Jesus who loves me, not for what I do or don't do but because He created me and died for me and that is it. It is simple. Othere earmarks of a cult that are pertitnent to mention, is this.. IN a cult you don't question the leader. I never once, while being an Advnetist questioned anything that EGW had to say. When she said not to eat this or that or what to wear or what day to worship or this and that we did it. Why did God give us the power of choice? In a cult all we are is robots. This is not a fulfilling lifestyle. It is not a black and white world we live in. Being an adventist growing up I wasn't allowed to read any fiction books or anything that was secular. How are we supposed to make descions and grow develop mentally when we have so many restrictions put on us at such a young age? God loves us and wants us to be FREE of all of that. This is what he was talking about when he adressed the Pharisees. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotted Son that whosever believeth in Him would not parish but have everlasting life" THAT IS IT God did not say this and then plan on EGW coming around years later, and adding to it. No, He said it because that is it. Jesus did all the work!! Andy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1608 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, I appreciate the spirit of your post!! Thanks so much. Yes, Jeremy, if I am consistent with what MacArthur said about Catholicism, I will have to say that the leadership of both RCC and SDA are controlled by the spirit of deception, which ultimately is a front for the Kingdom of Satan. As I said previously, these differences about whether you call an organization a cult, vs a false gospel may seem minor. But, in today's evangelical world, if we are going to have credibility with our SDA friends and family, and dealing with the realities of today's evangelical world, who is now accepting everything. Inother words, what is more effective? Credibility is significantly lost when you compare SDA to Mormonism, etc. Also Jeremy, CS being ecumenical with the false liberal United Methodist Church is not surprising. They are the same thing. But it is far different when you have John MacArthur (who BTW is not IGNORANT of Adventism. He is a close personal friend to Geoff Drew, who gave his testimonial at the FAF reunion), and John Stott, and Lee Strobel recognizing clearly that SDA does not belong in the status of CS, LDS, etc. Well, I will be off line at least until tomorrow, as we are headed for the Colorado river. So, this is not hit and run, but I will find a library and hope to come back on. I want to emphasize again--I value so much the friendships here, and I think we overall disagree agreeably. But this dialogue should not end. It may be that I will have to reverse myself again, as we observe carefully what is going on in Adventism Theoretically, much of Adventism has crossed the line which Walter Martin drew one month before his death. Whatever the case---stay far away from Adventism! Stan | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 1026 Registered: 7-2004 |
The greatest deception is the one that is mostly truth and has only a little bit of error. When compared with other so called "Christian Cults" Adventism falls into this category. They know how to talk in Christian-speak, however their meanings are not the same as Orthodox Christianity. I'm in complete agreement with Jackob on the issue that the strongest aspect of Adventism is fear. The use of fear and coersion was learned at EGW's knee. Every one of us posting here on this site has dealt with that fear and coersion to one degree or another, and it was singularly unpleasant to cope with. I recall having a vague discomfort with the beliefs of the Adventist church almost all of my life, even when I was just a child. It just didn't make much sense to me that if God was so loving and so kind, and if Jesus loved us enough to die on the cross for our sins, why couldn't that include the sins after baptism in a blanket-sense, just as it did prior to baptism. I was taught that all of a persons sins from prior to baptism were washed away in the baptismal font, but that after that cleansing you had better be a good little accountant and list every infraction in every prayer, and be ever so careful not to repeat the same sins over and over or God wouldn't be able to forgive those--those were now besetting sins. Better get dunked again! You could sin by the games you played, the foods you ate (pepper grows on a tree, for heaven's sake!), whether or not you consumed water at mealtime was problematic! Now I'm very clear that I am the foulest of sinners, but I am also very clear that those were the very sins that Jesus carried to the cross with him, and those were the sins that were forever exiled--never to condemn me again--when he rose from death's grip. If I should sin again, which I do not want to do, but find that I do every day, those sins that I have not yet to commit have already been paid for. That is not presumption, it is fact! I cannot believe that that I ever let fears about such things as pepper on my eggs run me around in circles of fear. God simply is not as petty as he is painted to be by the Adventist prophet! Yes, indeed, Adventism is a cult, even the kinder, gentler Adventism. It is made even more devious by its closer resemblance to true Gospel Christianity. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 484 Registered: 1-2003  |
Well Friends, I'm not going to "run and hide" but I think I need to retreat into my "sabbath rest" from all the discussions about cult vs: non cult. It is totally unproductive for me (at the moment) in my walk with my Lord and Savior. I spent yesterday afternoon, after church, in prayer with a small group of friends. A time of prayer for our church and and the coming study sessions. We each wanted a time apart, to pray and prepare ourselves for the weeks ahead. It was almost 9pm before we finally left. As one of the ladies in our group said, with tears on her cheeks, "My heart is breaking for my friends who are in fear of division and blinded to the Word of God as He is quietly speaking to each of us." We have been meeting for some time as a small group and starting next week we are having our first public meeting at the church to study the Biblical basis for what we believe. Each of us are in agreement to keep to scripture and not get drawn into arguments to win points but to point others to Christ as we have discovered HIM in our Bible study and prayer time. Each of us in our small group has felt a sense of being avoided by friends and being accused of wanting to divide the church. This is not our purpose, we only want to search out the truths of Scripture. We want to stay focussed on Christ and Him alone. Some of the first subjects for our study will be the New Covenant, the Sabbath, EG White, and the State of the Dead. (not all done at the same time ) The question of Cultism is not the MAIN THING folks, Christ and Him crucified is the MAIN THING. I ask for your prayers and support. We feel that "at this time" God is calling us to this time of study. I will not be reading much on here for awhile as i take a semi-vacation from the discussions, but please send me email if you feel led to by God. If it was not for my prayer partners both here (online) and in person it would be VERY lonely right now. There are a few from this forum who I keep in contact with via email and chats. Thanks to each of you. (I enjoyed seeing a couple of you on your webcams, it was fun and thanks) In Christ, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 685 Registered: 4-2000  |
Well said, Belvalew! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3865 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree; well said, Belva! Again, the problem with Adventism is not their published doctrines. Those are intentionally misleading. Those (and the original deception prepared for Walter Martin) are what have convinced so many evangelicals that the SDA church is not in the category of the other Christian cults. The fact that something looks and sounds "orthodox" does not make it so. Belief and practice are what determine what the group really is. One more observation: the 28 Fundamentals include a statement of authenticity and ongoing dependence upon a modern prophet for instruction, doctrine, etc. Even without dealing with all the other fundamentals, which include annihilation, soul-sleep, Sabbath requirement, and the IJ, etc., that one fundamental belief about EGW should be enough to disqualify Adventism as an evangelical church. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1609 Registered: 3-2005 |
I agree that SDA is not an evangelical church, and it never will be if Ellen White is an authority over scripture. The question is, what do you do for classification purposes, with groups that are in between. I have softened my position on WCG as well as SDA. But LDS, CS, JW are in a clear non-Christian category--no argument. But I cannot deny that God is working in the false churches SDA, RCC, WCG, that still have basic Trinitarian, and Deity of Christ theology in ways I don't see evidence of in JW or CS. He is saving people out of all false religions, but I just can't deny the work God has done in the history of Adventism and WCG, despite the fact their doctrines clearly keep them out of the evangelical camp. SDA is not just another evangelical church--don't get me wrong. Ruth Tucker is a well recognized cult expert who wrote a book recently called "Another Gospel", where she revisits Adventism and does say that much of Adventism is another gospel, but there are elements in Adventism where even she says that some SDA sermons are much more Biblical than in other popular churches. She is basing this on her observations. My views are consistent with hers--Adventism is a another gospel. Maybe its helpful to divide Adventism into historical--crossing the line into the realm of the cults; and evangelical, where we have to recognize that Smuts Van Rooyen and Randy Roberts are preaching gospel truth. But broadbrushing SDA and WCG, and possibly some of RCC may not be fair. Stan | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 234 Registered: 6-2005 |
Richard, sorry for your lonliness. Dont stay gone long, your "voice" is refreshing. Ill pray for you and Annie, and for your church situation. Gods timing is Gods timing, and never seems to make sense from a human standpoint. Psalm 91. Lori | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1218 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stan, If a few liberal areas popped up within Mormonism, would you no longer call them a cult? The fact is, even if there are some Evangelical-leaning Christians in the SDA church, they're still in a cult and they are still under EGW's satanic hold/bondage. (Yes, I agree with the former SDA Pastor/counter-cult lecturer who Colleen mentioned that says the SDA church is a Satanic cult. ) Stan, the WCG renounced many of their cultic beliefs. On the other hand, the SDA church has not changed any of their beliefs. If they used to be a cult, then they still are a cult. Have you seen their official belief book? Look at that book, and then tell me it's not a cult! It is basically just a summary of all of EGW's teachings. Why can't we base our evaluation of the SDA church on their official belief book? And their Fundamentals say that EGW is a "continuing and authoritative source of truth." That means that according to their official statement of beliefs, anything contained in EGW's writings is official SDA doctrine. Walter Martin did not care about what certain "factions" of Adventism believed. He wrote to the official leaders of the church and asked them if EGW was the infallible interpreter of Scripture. Of course, they would never write back to him and say "Yes"--because they knew he would then call them a cult. But my point is, his decision about whether to call them a cult was based on the official beliefs of the SDA church, Adventism as a whole--not a few liberal areas in California, etc. Here is what MacGregor Ministries says on their website:
I have to agree that according to Walter Martin's criterion, the SDA church is a cult. Also, remember that Lorri MacGregor is a former JW, and here they say that the Adventists are the most angry and hateful of all the cultists they encounter! Wow. Anyway, Stan, regarding Walter Martin before he died, you said that you don't know that Robert Morey's story is accurate. But what about "our own" Skip Baker who posted on here about a year ago and said:
And then the next post said:
I must say, you certainly have changed your tune, Stan. I really don't see anything wrong with us saying that Walter Martin was deceived by the SDAs, when he himself admitted that to Skip Baker and Doug Hackleman. Jeremy | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 188 Registered: 7-2005  |
I saw also on this forum at this thread in 2000, Lynn W said
So, it seems that even LDS can appear evangelicals and give the right answers about salvation. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3876 Registered: 12-2003 |
Interesting, Jackob. I believe that Mormonism is also working on its public relations image. If one believes the words people say, almost anyone can appear orthodox. The real crux of the matter is deception. Just because people SAY words doesn't mean they embrace what most Christians understand those words to mean. And in the case of some evangelical-sounding Adventists, their words are carefully calculated to sound good to a wider Christian audienceóbut they oh-so-carefully leave out certain things, or ever so subtly use variations of words to give an evangelical impression without compromising Adventist teaching. One example of this that I heard recently was a sermon in which the pastor was explaining that Paul taught one should not be brought under the bondage of "legalism". Well, of courseóno one would disagree with that. The text he was teaching, though, was clearly teaching not to return to the bondage of the "law". Now, to an Adventist audience, to talk about "legalism" instead of the "law" makes a HUGE difference. To the average Christian listener, however, that subtlety would likely go unnoticed unless the listener were well-acquianted with the text and realized the verbal diversion. No Adventist thinks he's legalistic, and Adventists are the first to decry "legalism". They insist their Sabbath keeping is not legalistic. (I insisted my Sabbath-keeping was not legalistic!) So, when an Adventist pastor dodges what the text says about the law and instead preaches against "legalism", even using an example of a small community in which the local Christians began judging each other for eating or not eating specialty foods shipped to them from overseas, the point of "law" is completely lost to the Adventist audience. The deception is subtle but profound. Adventists are not the only ones who practice this deception, nor does the deception mean the Adventist is finally getting it right. It just means the truth is being buried behind new layers of obfuscation. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 687 Registered: 4-2000 |
Yes, Mormons and other cults are also busily trying to convince us that they are all about Jesus Christ. For example, please visit the Reformed Mormon website (recently renamed, "The Community of Christ") at www.cofchrist.org for interesting parallels to Adventism. Indeed, they can make themselves look very good online. Their new name, the Community of Christ, is really very deceptive. Some new residents in a neighborhood would not know that this was a Mormon group due to their new, Christian-sounding name. Several years ago, I listened to a series of recorded programs on National Public Radio (NPR). One of their recorded programs featured excerpts of a typical prayer meeting in a LDS Church. Amazingly, if someone told you that this was a recorded SDA prayer meeting, you would not doubt their word. As I recall, the Mormon prayer meeting participants were earnestly praying and thanking God for bringing them into their "wonderful truth." Basically, they were grateful that they finally "arrived" in latter-day theological superiority. It really sounded just like SDA prayer meetings that I have attended many times. As I listened to that NPR program, while I was still an Adventist, my thoughts immediately associated this with Adventism in a remarkable way. I remember telling Sylvia, "Wow, this sounds just like OUR prayer meetings." Interestingly, more and more Mormon students are finding SDA colleges and universities very appealing for their formal education. One of my Mormon neighbors is enrolled in the Physician Assistant training program at Union College. As two Mormon missionaries once told us in our home, "The Adventists stole our health message." Dennis Fischer | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1611 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, Thanks for pointing out my many inconsistencies! (smiley). My evaluation of Morey's credibility has changed from a year ago. My perspective on Adventism has also changed. But, remember, my dad also now disagrees with me a little--and he did raise me as cultishly as it gets. (smiley) I have been convicted on my slight modification only after a lot of prayer. I have also come to my conclusions, because of a Biblical doctrine that I had failed to grasp until recently--and that is being in submission to pastoral authority. I hate to keep harking back to my Walter Martin days, but I was so sure he was wrong and I was right about Adventism being a full blown cult, and I was convinced Martin was wrong. But after awhile, as I said above, I realized that God had set some to be pastors and teachers. He called me to be a physician. I am not trained in theology, and I am not an expert on the cults or the occult. He was my pastoral authority at the time. Jeremy, you have asked enough questions, and challenged me enough, that I must go further to explain what I mean to be under pastoral authority. The Reformation taught the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers. But it did not take away the concept of being under authority of a pastor. When there was a series of posts about three weeks ago, that clearly went over the line, I really had the need to come before the Lord and take stock as to what I am doing. I realized that a lot of things I posted in the past did not really advance the cause of Christ. I was driven back to read Dale Ratzlaff's book again, and then realize what Dale meant to all of us as formers, and the great pioneering work that he did, and all the abuse and insults he took by being called the anti-christ by so many cultic current SDAs. I realized that he was the founder of LAM. I had to think to myself. How can this former SDA pastor still come to the conclusion that Adventism is cultic, yet not equal to the other cults,(and I confirmed with him that he still stands by his book)? I realized that he is a man who knows much more about SDA than I do, and he must know much more about LDS and JW than I do. So that is another pastoral authority I appeal to besides Walter Martin. I must mention one more example of pastoral authority that I feel Biblically obligated to mention. I am a proud member of the FAF Bible study. I have been blessed beyond measure by the study led by Richard and Colleen (she is a great Bible teacher). The fellowship and prayer with some other current forum posters and many others have been such a blessing. I am thankful for pastors like Gary Inrig, who allow us to have the Bible study at his church. He has also been very gracious to host our FAF alumni reunion. I was curious about what his opinion was of Adventism as a cult and how it compares to CS, LDS, and JW. He answered me back within 5 minutes with a very firm statement, no hesitation, or hedging. "It is clear to me that Adventism, with all its problems, is very different than LDS, JW, or CS...." So, I am a man under authority, and I am speaking only for myself, but I interpret that as saying that I should defer to his authority when discussing Adventism on the world wide web. The fact that he answered me within 5 minutes was like a confirmation of what I thought the Lord was telling me in prayer. Please, remember, that I apply the doctrine of pastoral authority that I describe above as pertaining only to me. I remain as fully supportive of FAF and LAM as before. I am just as zealous to bring as many people within Adventism to the good news of the authentic Gospel of Christ. I also think that Pastor Gary really does "get it" about the differences between the groups. He was also helpful regarding my understanding of WCG. I only disagree with most of you posting on this thread, as to the matter of degree. But, I do believe that the distinction is important. I can't call SDA a cult as long as the largest SDA church in the country is preaching Christ--sorry, I can't do it. And I have sensed a lot of distress over the last three weeks with regard to this. It is clear that just calling historical Adventism a different gospel--which is the Biblical language--is not enough, but, that is as far as I can go. I praise God for the chance to be raised in Adventism, and I praise Him so much more for leading me and other family members out. I praise God for Him giving me the chance to express myself on this forum. I thank God for everyone of you. In His Sovereign grace, Stan | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 486 Registered: 1-2003 |
Stan, I believe one Friday night you gave me your email address and phone number but I can't find it. Would you please send me some way to contact you again. Some strange things are happening at my church which I have not felt lead to be public about. I'd like to talk to you. In Christ, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3878 Registered: 12-2003 |
Stan, I respect your personal opinion regarding Adventism. It appears disingenuous, however, to refer to various pastoral opinions without quoting them in context. It seems it would be best for you to share Gary Inrig's entire quote showing the sentence above in context, allowing readers to draw their own conclusions about his opinion. In context, Gary's message has a decidedly different tone than does that one out-of-context sentence you shared. Further, I have heard Gary's wife, also a member of the pastoral staff at Trinity, call Adventism a cult. As for "pastoral authority", pastors have differing opinions and understandings of Adventism based on their personal experiences and the breadth (as opposed to the depth) of their personal study. You can find many informed pastors who call Adventism a cult. In short, pastoral authority does not determine whether or not a group is a cult. It's own doctrinal statements, practices, and uses of deception are what identify a group as a cult or not. Individual people and their personal beliefs or public words do not mark a group as a cult or not-a-cult. The internal reality of a group is its true identifier. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1612 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen, I will share the entire quote tomorrow, if I get a chance. Sorry, it appeared out of context. Jeremy, I don't know how civil dialogue can ever start with anyone who is seeking answers about Adventism, by referring to SDA as a Satanic cult. It doesn't matter who said it. But I will say, that my mother, and missionary grandfather were not members of a Satanic cult. My grandfather baptized me, and I believe that baptism is valid. I feel like the odd man out here trying to defend Adventism, when I really don't want to. But, Adventism has enough legitimate things to attack, that I will continue to attack, but I think our cause is advanced by refraining from inflammatory terms like "Satanic Cult". Yes, all doctrine that denies the gospel is ultimately from Satan. Stan | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1370 Registered: 7-2003 |
Stan, I had to chuckle a little about feeling like the "odd man out"...that's how I feel "defending" Rick Warren....seeing positive amidst the bad.... (not that topic again!!!) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1613 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Melissa! You made me feel good today, after what has been a troubling three weeks for me on here. I will not be saying anything more negative about Rick Warren in the near future, and I look forward to a lot of other great discussions! Stan |
