| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3893 Registered: 12-2003  |
Bill, the issue really isn't, bottom line, finding a church that offers "what you like". It really is the issue of finding a church where Christ is exalted and and God's word is honored and taught. Many people, of course, do look for churches they agree with or "like", but when knowing Jesus is central, it becomes really important to find a church that make Him central. Of course there will always be "taste" issues, but those are secondary to finding the living presence of Jesus in a church. I don't believe one can really find Jesus as the central focus of a church that does not grow from a foundation of which He is the Cornerstone. Colleen | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 1029 Registered: 7-2004 |
I don't know exactly about the transfers between denominations, but I do know that one of the recent pastors at the church I attend (Presbyterian) was born, raised, and trained Baptist before he took the position with my church. Heard that from the horse's mouth. | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 38 Registered: 4-2006  |
Jeremy, your statement that SDA is "part of a Satanic Cult" is pretty hard. Thank you. In wrestling with my daughter's relationship with her SDA boyfriend I am catching heat now for even being a part of this forum and not being more tolerant. I'm not a Former and I try to keep my comments about SDA and Ellen White somewhat civil in warning D. If she were experimenting with drugs, homosexuality or even smoking I feel it would be my duty as a parent to warn her. I would certainly not become an advocate of those things. So thanks for saying what I want to say. Perhaps you Formers are like ex-smokers. They are harder on violators in a no-smoking area than we non-formers are. And Colleen, I have another question-you answer them so well. You said somewhere that your Adventist Family can not or will not visit you on Saturday because they would be violating something? I'm sorry, I can't find that post right now for an exact quote. Does that mean my daughter would not be able to visit us on Saturday? Or is that because you are a Former? CW | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1227 Registered: 7-2003  |
Cw, I can't answer for Colleen's family, but my in-laws do not come to our home on the Sabbath. The reason is that they would likely be exposed to an environment where the Sabbath is not being kept. This would not only make them very uncomfortable, but would in some cases cause them to violate the Sabbath. Let me give you two examples. Once not long after we left Adventism my in-laws came over and I was mowing my lawn. It was clear that they were very uncofortable and kept looking at the lawn mower than away quickly. They didn't know what to to say and just wanted to leave. Another time they came over and the TV was on. They were very uncomfortable and would've left quickly if we had not turned the TV off for them. In the former case they were horified to see a family member actively breaking Sabbath. In the latter case they were in a situation where they were in violation of Sabbath rules because they could see the TV. Both situations were EXTREMELY uncomfortable for everyone involved. As a result they simply choose not to come to our home on Sabbath. We occasionally will go to their house on Sabbath, but our children are expected to observe Sabbath rules when we are there. If they do something that is not considered acceptable Grandma will mention it to them rather quickly. I guess that's only fair since it's their home. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3897 Registered: 12-2003 |
Cw, Chris answered the question exactly. The added component for our VERY conservative Adventist family is the fear that the actual conversation will stray from what they consider "sacred discussions". Even talking about secular issues on the Sabbathófor very observant familiesóis considered sin. (Ellen said it was a sin, but that restriction is one that the more liberated SDAs don't worry about too muchóat least in some places.) Colleen | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 41 Registered: 4-2006 |
Thanks Chris and Colleen. Actually I wish it were that easy to get rid of ALL relatives when they visit. I hope it is never necessary with my daughter because I'm still praying for a good Baptist or Assembly of God man to come into her life and sweep her off her feet. I'm sure there is a lovely Adventist out there for J also. CW | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 401 Registered: 10-2001 |
Cw--I may have missed it, but ---does your daughter already have a relationship with Christ and understand grace? | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1375 Registered: 7-2003 |
B actually mentioned the issue of family responses last night in his speech ... saying many baptist families and methodist families will not associate themselves with the now-SDA, no longer methodist/baptist family members. It seems when such issues come up as to "if we are all God's Children, then why is their so much grief when one joins another of God's children's groups", he always has a response that adventists and their responses are no different than baptists or methodists. However, as has been stated by Sabra, I've moved membership from a southern baptist church to an assembly of God church to a non-denominational Christian church and never so much as had a hiccup. I certainly was not moved to the ranks of "apostate" by leaving one of those man-made associations. And I never had to get rebaptized because I wasn't baptized in their particular denominations. In my church, you only have to affirm you desire membership as a follower of Christ and be baptized (or have been baptized elsewhere). There are some covenants unnecessary for baptism that are expected of members....building the body of Christ, participation in worship, finding an area of service, supporting others in the body of Christ....one another type things, but if you don't want to commit to them, you can freely worship at the church and just never be a member. The church only added those because they wanted people to know this wasn't a social club where they were served only, but had responsibilities as members to serve the body of Christ as well. So, they put down in writing some expected behaviors if you're a member. But that is completely separate from salvation and has nothing to do with previous denominational affiliation. | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 43 Registered: 4-2006 |
Sabra, thanks for asking. I did share the problem on earlier posts but I would ask for your prayers. My daughter D was raised in a Christian home, Assembly of God, and spent her entire life K-12 in private Christian schools. She is saved and loves the Lord. However, in high school she began going with an Adventist, J who was in her class. The school is discriminating in their acceptance policies but I think they are ignorant of SDA like most main stream Christians are. But she is in love with J and wants to believe him and his parents. She has indicated her willingness to join SDA since J "would never leave it" if it comes to marriage. CW | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 378 Registered: 10-2005 |
CW, Have you shown her Mark Martins website - www.sdaoutreach.org Perhaps it may open some discussions between her and her boyfriend. So they can be certain about what they both believe. Like if he believes he is saved and will be saved even if he doesn't keep the sabbath. I've been married to a non Adventist Christian for many years and our marriage has had difficulties as a result of this SDA stuff coming from me. I believe I was saved when I started with the adventists, but the doctrine took a toll on me and on our family over the years. I'm glad you are here so everybody can pray. It is great that you care so much for your daughter. And by the way, my husband believes what he was taught by one denomination but is a member of a church that teaches differently. He was shocked when I told him the Adventist church doesn't transfer membership between denominations. Especially with how outwardly open they have seemed over the years to evangelicals. He thought they were like other protestant churches. Lynne | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 45 Registered: 4-2006 |
Lynne, no I have not shown D that web site but you may just have. I don't open discussion with her because I have been accused, and not necessarily by only her, of being intolerant and controlling in this. But I did invite her in writing to monitor this forum. I took heat for that also. I don't know if she checks these discussions out but it's my prayer every day that the Holy Spirit convict her to "test everything" 1 Thes 5:21. Reading this forum would give her much more honest and informed info about SDA than I ever could. I am certainly not an expert and didn't even start investigating it until a few months ago. However, compared to 90% or more of main stream Christianity I believe I'm becoming an expert. CW | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 402 Registered: 10-2001 |
Just in case she is reading: I will say that the SDA church is a horrible childhood and way of growing up. It is demonic, oppressive, sad, depressing. Don't put any kids through that. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1230 Registered: 7-2003 |
CW, Sabra brings up an important topic in mentioning children. Things change when children come. Every parent wants to do the right thing for their child. If you believe, somewhere deep within your psyche, that Adventism is ìthe right thingî, you will do everything you can to steep your children in all aspects of Adventism. Iíve seen it again and again with friends from Academy and College. In fact, I followed the pattern myself. Prior to having children Adventism might be cultural where you take or leave certain components and fail to really practice even the components you believe in. Somehow after having children it becomes imperative that your children know, understand, and live Adventism. Things that you used to do on the Sabbath change because you donít want to set a bad example for the kids. Doctrines you never thought were important suddenly become so. Even diet can become a big issue as you struggle to indoctrinate your children in ìthe Truthî. I donít care how ìliberalî the Adventist, in most cases they will begin to gravitate towards a more ìconservativeî (historic) Adventism once the kids arrive. Of course, how far they move towards the right depends on how far to the left they started, but I would just about guarantee that the focus on Adventist distinctives will increase after having children. This is one of the reasons why marriages between a life-long SDA and non-SDA or a new convert often begin to fall apart once the kids arrive. It is only after the kids arrive that the non-SDA or new-convert spouse realizes how deep the SDA rabbit hole goes and how insidiously the belief system is engrained in their spouse. Make not mistake, the struggle for the hearts and minds of the children is a spiritual battle. Chris | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 46 Registered: 4-2006 |
Sabra and Chris, as I have mentioned I have only been able to directly address the issues of D leaning toward SDA to please J a couple of times. I'm much more the type that wants to discuss things than she is. I am pretty much cut out of the loop and trying to force my way into it verbally or in writing has proven to be a mistake. She prefers to seek out people who will confirm to her that SDA "is not so bad". Even the youth pastor she works for part time, and whom I don't know personally, has said that to her. I'm sure he's a fine Christian gentleman but I'm also sure he knows no more about SDA than does the rest of the Christian community at large. Even I could now find out with just a couple of quick questions if he knows anything about it. Any of you formers could do it much more efficiently than I. The couple of times D has allowed me to express my concerns the subject of future grand children came up. It seems J's parents would be the good role models and my wife and I would be Grandma and Grandpa Heathen? I don't see that as making for one big happy family. Thanks for addressing a comment to D Sabra. I don't know if she will see it but I believe anyone's comments on the issue will be valued more than mine. My peace in all of this is that it is a spiritual battle and not mine to win or lose. I am learning to be available to God if he chooses to use me but he does not NEED me to fight this battle. My part is to love D and pray for her continually. Unless she monitors this forum, as far as I know I am the only person on the planet that is trying to warn her of the spiritual train wreck she is heading for. Again, she may do it because God gives us free will. But He will not let her be deceived to do it. The Holy Spirit will impress the truth on her and she will have to make the decision knowing that one way is disobedience to Him. CW | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2516 Registered: 3-2004  |
Dear "D", For your peace of mind and that your husband and your future children, please, prayerfully study the Bible and what it says, and not just from a Seventh day Adventist view point. Study it as if your life depended on it, because, in the long run it does. I am a former SDA who told my boy friend I could not marry him unless he became SDA. I put him through misery, when I found out he did not really believe it, but joined the church just so I would marry him. And because the SDA church condemns smoking, I gave him double misery when I discovered he had not quit smoking, 2 years after we married. Our son paid for our mistake when we got a divorce. For your sake and for your boyfriend's sake, pray and listen to what God wants you to do. Father in Heaven, Thank you for Jesus, who died for each of us. Come close to D at this time and show her what is best for her. Keep her and her friend in your awesome hands and send the Holy Spirit to teach them your word. As always, you are awesome Lord. Diana | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1231 Registered: 7-2003 |
CW, Although my family history is a bit complicated, the simple version relates to my adoptive family where I grew up. By way of adoption I am only second generation SDA. My adoptive mother was a convert and her father was an evangelical Christian. I now look back with sorrow at the relationship I missed out on with Grandpa. It's not that I didn't see him regularly, I did. It's just that I viewed him as being part of the "Whore of Babylon". Even as a young child I knew that it was my duty to help call him out of Babylon. So I would debate with him on various theological matters. He knew enough about Adventism to point out some of the serious errors, but I couldn't hear it at the time. I just knew that he was a "Sunday-keeper" and that someday we would have to hide in the mountains from "Sunday-keepers" when they came for us to kill us. I was taught that even our own family members would turn against us and turn us in for keeping the Sabbath. Needless to say, my beliefs even as a small child kept me from ever being able to truly bond with my Christian grandfather. Now that he has gone on to be with the Lord I deeply regret our lack of a real relationship. It was most definately my fault and not his. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3915 Registered: 12-2003 |
I strongly second Sabra and Chris. Children are a turning point. In our case, Richard and I were both Adventists, but because I had gone through a divorce, (well, he had, too, but I can only speak of my experience before marrying him), I had abandoned a lot of my conservative Adventist behavior. I had done some serious questioning of God, but He met me in some profound ways, and I realized He was constant. I was trying hard to figure out, though, where the church fit into that picture. When I married Richard, it's amazing how much the old, automatic "givens" of Adventism revived. I suddenly was a parent to a two and a six-year-old, and teaching them Adventism was deeply important to both me and Richard. In spite of all my earlier permissive Sabbath behaviors, etc., I easily slipped back into strict observance, and I even found the old neurotic anxiety over "guarding the edges" back in full bloom. It was during those early years of our marriage that I returned to reading Ellen White along with the Bible and felt my internal struggles intensifying and becoming gradually more crippling. Children absolutely will cause an entrenching into the old ways. And as Sabra said, it is a terrible way to grow up. Even though many of us have pockets of pleasant memories, those are punctuation marks on a background of anxiety, fear, and frustration. Colleen | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 47 Registered: 4-2006 |
Over my side of the bathroom mirror I have printed in large letters: ___DO NOT FRET PS 37:1______PRAY CONTINUALLY 1 THES 5:17______I am guilty of the first and am learning to retrain myself in the second. It's funny how it's impossible to do both at the same time. Since I was forced to retire from full-time police work I now have a weekend job in San Francisco doing some private security work. It affords A LOT of alone time to either fret or pray and memorize scripture. So in being driven to my knees in prayer for D there is a great "bi-product" in it for me. God does work in mischievous (smile) ways. CW | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1382 Registered: 7-2003 |
Cw, I remember way back 6+ years ago when I was just learning about adventism. I made all kinds of justifications to myself... -as long as he's saved, it doesn't really matter about all that fluff doctrine stuff, -we agree on xxx, so the rest doesn't matter, -his family is so nice and he's so good with my kids, I can tolerate some other things... As time went on, though, I became more and more aware of the full implications of his doctrine, and not only did it matter, but it dramatically changed how I viewed him. The first to go, of course, was that EGW was no big deal in the religion. As I read what she wrote (long before I found former websites to point me to the really good stuff), I just knew she had a screw loose. I remember searching for pork in her writings and found completely contradictory statements...one said they had just put down a 200-pound porker and that should settle the matter, and the next said you can't go to heaven if you eat swine's flesh. Then came the comments I read about marriage and family dynamics and the marriage relationship. By the time I was done copying-pasting the ridiculous into a single word document, it was 20 pages...and that wasn't because I hit the end, I just thought I had enough to settle my mind about her. And when I started dogging EGW, well, suffice it to say you'd think I was attacking his mother. I used to test him...I'd give him some quote that was "from an adventist" and he would go off on where in the world I found that, then I'd say it was from EGW, and he instantly was in defense mode explaning why the statement that seemed so "out there" in one instance was perfectly acceptable and "right" when EGW said it. It truly was a fascinating thing to watch. But I stayed. I cared about him and I was so sure we could get through these issues and it'd be great....but I was the one deceived then because of my ignorance at how deeply ingrained these beliefs are in him. Some day your daughter is bound to uncover something that no explanation will resolve and the real game will begin as she tries to squelch the questions for the sake of the relationship. But she's young too, and maybe the relationship will run its natural course and die for other reasons. Chris has pretty much described the change I saw in B after the child. And what was tolerable before became intolerable as he was trying to do almost anything to get the baby away from me. It's a hard road. But we can all pray she opens her eyes before that point. But it really is hard to imagine this loving relationship that is what it is will ever become what it eventually does if they disagree. Right now, though, it seems she's willing to agree with him, even if that excludes you. And that's my experience with adventists as well. If they can't convince you, they shun you. Like you, I shut down all tunnels of communication probably in my zeal to "fix" what seemed so obviously wrong. Unfortunately, it did the opposite of what I expected. And there is nothing to do now to correct it as the damage has been done. That's where trust comes in. But it is hard when it's your kid or people you love. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 382 Registered: 10-2005 |
Chris, you are so right. Although I did try to protect my children at a young age from the scary teachings of Adventism. There was a part of me that knew I must, at some point, get the truth into them. And as I wasn't going to the Adventist church because of problems in the church. Many people like me consider homeschooling their children, or getting important Adventist truths into their children such as the Sabbath and the dietary restrictions regardless of whether or not they went to the church. ================================================================================= CW - Before I was immersed in Adventism, there was one scripture that kept jumping out at me below (Matthew 24). Matthew 24: 36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. When Seventh-day Adventists go to Sabbath school, they hear in depth studies of Daniel with all of the numbers and calculations and how this leads to..... And if one knows the history of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and that a date was set for the coming of Jesus. Adventists are taught this date was not wrong, it was just a Great Disappointment at that time. Through a vision in a field by a person, it was concluded by the Seventh-day Adventist church that the date set actually pointed to a time when the earths inhabitants are being judged. Being judged? Being judged for what? For keeping or not keeping the 10 Commandments. The law of God as I was taught. There has never been any repentance of this date setting error by the Seventh-day Adventist Church. They only exchanged the reason for the date set from "His Coming on this day" to "His judgment came on that day." And again, this comes from a person, a vision. Not from the bible. Does the above tell me that those teachings are the inerrant word of God? My discerning mind told me no before I became Adventist. But my heart didn't want to think this was a big deal. I now see the Holy Spirit working in Matthew 24 at that time. I ignored those impressions and became Adventist. ================================================================================= And though there is truth in eating healthy, how is it that not eating pork will somehow save us? Especially when the New Testiment (which means New Covenant) says: 11 Eat anything sold in the market, without raising questions on grounds of conscience, 26 for "the earth and its fullness are the Lord's." ..........So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do everything for the glory of God." How does the bible tell me I am saved? Do I want to be "in the Law" or "In Christ". When I was a Seventh-day Adventist, I was "in the Law" trying to please Christ. ******************************************************************************* Acts 13:39 Through HIM everyone who BELIEVES is justified from everything YOU COULD NOT BE JUSTIFIED FROM BY THE LAW OF MOSES. ******************************************************************************* Protection and Armor can be found in Ephesians 6:10-18. Lynne |
