| Author | Message | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 33 Registered: 10-2002 |
Okay, I just want to shout this out: "144,000" is NOT a literal number of people who will be saved in the end! It is spiritual, as are the "12 tribes" listed before in Revelation 7:4-8. The "great multitude" and the 144,000 are the SAME GROUP. The easiest way to see this is by considering John's words: "Then I *heard* the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel," and then says, "After this I *looked* and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language." First, he "heard" the number. Then, he "looked" and saw it! Except it was an uncountable & international multitude. Yet in God's eyes (or in the "hearing" of the Spirit) it is "Israel", a perfect and complete accounting of everyone---with none missing. The 144,000 are sealed by the Holy Spirit, meaning that they have believed the gospel (Ephesians 1:13-14). Consider the parallel descriptions of the 144,000 and the Great Multitude in Revelation 5, 7 and 14... Both groups are "before the throne of God" (7:15, 14:3) Both are "redeemed" from the earth and "purchased" by God (5:9, 14:4) Okay, just had to get that out. Blessings! He's got you! In Him, Ramone | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 449 Registered: 7-2004  |
Thanks for posting that, Ramone! I had never really thought much about it after leaving the SDA church until a recent Sunday School class on Revelation at our Lutheran church. That's the same understanding we learned in that class, but also with the idea that 144,000 from all 12 tribes represents completeness. It certainly makes sense to me. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1232 Registered: 7-2003  |
So true Ramone. The number 1000 in Revelation and elsewhere in the Bible is often used as a figure of speech meaning something like "many". In this particular case we have reference to the 12 tribes which symbolically refers to all those who are God's people. To underscore that this is a large number of people we are given a number which is 12,000 x 12. It's a little like saying, "'Many' people will make up the twelve tribes" or "The people in the twelve tribes are too great to count". It's analogous to Jesus saying we should forgive 70 x 7. He didn't mean we should forgive 490 times, he meant we should forgive so many times that it is without count. The same applies here. 144,000 is not the actual total number of the saved, it is a number representing a collection of all God's people that is closely linked to the idea of the Israel of God. Understanding how numbers are used in Revelation and elsewhere in the Bible would also help to cast some light on Revelation ch. 20 I think. Chris | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 40 Registered: 8-2005 |
My studying has lead me to put some credence to the fact that the 144,000 are the saved "remnant" of physical israel (i.e. ethnic jews). It is not a literal number but it is symbolicly smaller than the 'great multitude that none could count" of gentile believers. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 34 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi Brian, The problem is that Revelation gives the same attributes to both groups, and the "seal" is the same Spirit. And aside from the *symbolism* of Revelation, the book of Romans speaks *clearly* that the "Israel" of God includes both Jews and Gentiles, for not all who are called Israel are really Israel in God's eyes. There is One Body, and One Spirit, and as Ephesians says, Christ's death has broken down the wall of separation. There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ. What is spoken of clearly in the Epistles mustn't be altered by our interpretations of Revelation. In other words, we should interpret the book of Revelation through the clear revelation of the new covenant gospel, and not the other way around. The "remnant" of Romans is, I believe, *not* the same "remnant" of the book of Revelation. I don't think the term "remnant" is not even used in that part of Revelation, nor is it used to refer to the 144,000. It's an association I think *we* have made from our artificial separation of God's Body. (We also get hung up on the word "remnant"). Paul switches back and forth in Romans. He sometimes talks about real (all) Israel and ethnic Israel. Yet what his belief about things is summed up when he says that there is no distinction between us in Christ, that we are all one in Him. He talks about ethnic Israel because his heart cried out for her; she was in bondage, not knowing her King, not knowing a King sat on the throne of David, that a Savior had been sent to her. (Isn't that the same cry of His heart that He's longing to give us for the nation of Israel today? That she may know her King, her Savior who has died for her?) One of the things we need to recognize is what Robert Brinsmead called "the Palestinian language" or symbolism. The Old Testament prophecies are written in the imagery of the Old Covenant, with the names of places in Palestine. Similarly, the Book of Revelation is also written with many of the same symbolisms -- not for the purpose of re-establishing the Old Covenant, but rather, well, for God's purposes, hehehe. But we should be aware that Revelation is often written in the "shadows" like the Old Testament prophecies. Why? I believe one of the greatest reasons God did this is so that we would not put our faith in what is seen, but what is unseen. In other words, if we can see who is who, if we can see who is the "real" people of God, then salvation will no longer be by faith. (Remember also as 2 Timothy 2:19 says, the thing that counts is who *GOD* recognizes as His, not what we decree amongst ourselves). He wants us to see with the eyes of faith and to listen to the Spirit, walk by the Spirit, and see by the Spirit. I think this is one of the main reasons He did NOT write Revelation in a literal way. Otherwise we'd be forever on the watch for the right "signs" in the world, nerve-racked by the news, etc., and the moment those things started, we'd try to "get right" with Him. That's not what He wants. Again, in the final analysis, we need to let the gospel of the new covenant interpret Revelation instead of forcing our interpretations into the epistles and the end times. Otherwise we'll be wondering whether Messianic Jews will be part of the "great multitude" or the "144,000". To answer that, we can ask ourselves how one becomes Jewish (you don't have to be born to Jacob's literal descendants, you can *become* Jewish). Is it not by obeying the laws of the Torah? Is it not by the signs of circumcision and the Sabbath, as well as the other traditions? But the Spirit has revealed in the Epistles that we who were baptized into Christ have been "circumcised" by God's hands, not by man's. So shouldn't we ask ourselves why we're reading Revelation as if there's a division when the New Testament otherwise says that there is none? Finally, again, Revelation doesn't actually mention "two" groups. It really mentions *one*. First John heard, then he *saw*. (^_^) | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 35 Registered: 10-2002 |
Also, haha, we should maybe ask God why the tribes of Dan and Ephraim are missing from the symbolic roll call of the 12. I believe He's telling us something spiritual in that; likely a warning to us that the reasons "Dan" and "Ephraim" are not there is because of a spiritual adultery or abuse that has been a human problem down through the ages. | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 41 Registered: 8-2005 |
I don't see a problem with both groups having the same attributes. They are all saved the same way, No? "Revelation 7:4-8 NET. Now I heard the number of those who were marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed from all the tribes of the people of Israel: 5 From the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand, 6 from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh, twelve thousand, 7 from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand, 8 from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed." Sounds distinctly Jewish. "Revelation 7:9 NET. After these things I looked, and here was an enormous crowd that no one could count, made up of persons from every nation, tribe, people, and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb dressed in long white robes, and with palm branches in their hands." Sounds distinctly Gentile. "Revelation 7:10 NET. They were shouting out in a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God, to the one seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!" " "THEY" are now all one group. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3927 Registered: 12-2003  |
Brian, I see your reasoning. Both Jews and Gentiles comprise the great multitude, as I see it, but the groups may be treated distinctly at different times. The two reasons I tend to see it this way (but I am not married to this notionÖ!) are 1) The gates of the New Jerusalem have the names of the 12 tribes inscirbed on them while the foundations have the twelve apostles (both the patriarchal and the apostolic heritages are recognized), and 2) Romans 9 clearly speaks of a time when the Gentiles will flourish and come in and be grafted into the olive tree, and then the Israelites will have a time of un-hardening when the remnant of Israel will be regrafted into the tree as well. I really don't feel that I can absolutely say that these details suggest to me a "time table" or sequence of events. IOW, I don't necessarily see a pre-trib rapture (although I'm not ruling it out entirely), etc. I just see that God will yet deal with the remnant of Israel, and all will be saved in the same way, and all will comprise the Olive Tree of God as equal branches. The details and sequences I'm not sure about; I'm comfortable, at this point, with being open-ended about them. I am just so very thankful to KNOW I am secure eternally!! Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 38 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi Brian, I like the sequence you saw it through... that the 144,000 *joined* the great multitude. I've never read it that way before. Perhaps one of the reasons I haven't read it that way before is because the 144,000 are *again* mentioned in Revelation 14---where there is no reason for excluding them from the "great multitude" or treating them separately. Again, you said that the names in Revelation sounded "distinctly Jewish", yet I fear my point about symbolism was missed! Revelation is written in symbols, but the gospels & Epistles are written clearly, so they must be the interpreters of Revelation: "It is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring" (Rm.9:8). "Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman (Hagar), but of the free woman (Sarah)." (Gal.4:31) "For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh." (Ph.3:3) "But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in His flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to creat in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which He put to death their hostility... consequently you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household." (Eph.2:13-19) Okay, anyway, this last text from Ephesians doesn't seem to be looking forward to a future reality when the two groups will "come together"... instead it talks about this as if it is a *present reality*. Indeed, the thing that keeps many (in Israel) in bondage is the Law, and it is the Law that makes them distinct from "Gentiles". But in Christ that distinction has been torn down, because it died in His flesh. In Revelation, has He now resurrected the distinction? I don't think He has. Ooops, must run. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3935 Registered: 12-2003 |
I'm not Brian, but I'll respond to your last post! No, I firmly do not believe God is resurrecting the distinction. I do believe, based on Romans 9-11, however, that Jesus will "un-harden" the remnant of Israel after the full number of Gentiles has come in so they can be regrafted into the Olive Tree of God's purposes and people. They will come in exactly the same way everyone else comes in, and they will not be separate. It's a matter of timing rather than of method or end result. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 39 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi Colleen, Yes, I too look forward to the day that the beloved children God has in Israel will see their King who loves them so much. But the problem I had with the "timing" idea (that the great multitude represents the unification of Israel & Gentiles) is that in Ephesians 2, Paul talks about this unification as if it's *now* instead of a future thing. I am curious why we often think that the "remnant" that Paul speaks of in Romans is the same as the 144,000 in Revelation. I mean, the word "remnant" isn't used in that part of Revelation. Also, Brian earlier said that the description of the 144,000 sounded "distinctly Jewish". I beg to differ. The Jews are comprised mostly of the tribe of Judah and the little tribe of Benjamin. The description of Rev.7 on the other hand includes the "10 lost tribes" whom basically no one knows the location or identity of. While I think it's a very touching idea (and I do like the idea) that God is perhaps telling the Jews that their lost brothers are not forgotten, I think that interpretation may be reading too much of our ideas into the passage. For example, Paul's burden in Romans was for the Israel of his day -- Judah and Benjamin -- because they had rejected or not known Christ, and were still in slavery under the Old Covenant (as he notes in Galatians). The "remnant" of Israel refers to those who *know* they are the literal nation of Israel. If Revelation 7 were the *only* place that mentioned the 144,000 then the interpretation could perhaps work a little easier, but as I noted before, they're also mentioned in Revelation 14. The other thing that messes up the interpretation is that John says he heard the number of those who were sealed---144,000---and that those who were sealed were "the servants of God". If we say that the 144,000 are the "remnant of Israel" and split them from "the great multitude", then we ought to note that the 144,000 are the only ones being sealed in this passage, and we should also note that they are called "the servants of God". That leaves the "great multitude" un-sealed and not being called God's servants. Okay, now here is another issue about "timing": the "sealing" is the Holy Spirit. I don't believe there is any other seal than the blood of Jesus Christ, which is what the Spirit gives witness of. The Spirit testifies that we are God's children---not only to us, but to God. He witnesses saying, "The blood is here", just like in the passover in Egypt. Yet Revelation seems to say that this "sealing" is in the *future*. My old Adventist mission director was bent on the idea of being good enough so that he wouldn't miss "the sealing" in the last days. Yet we know that in Christ we are sealed by His Spirit *today*. For this reason I would hesitate to overlap Revelation 7 with Romans 11 and say that they parallel each other. In a similar vein, Revelation 12 has an incredible picture of the creation, fall of Satan, Christ's incarnation & resurrection... yet it is spoken of in a "timing" that is very hard to compare to our own earthly "time". It's a God's-eye timing, I think. I think Revelation 7 is similar, a God's-eye-timing, not a "this, then this". And again, Revelation 14 mentions the 144,000 but *not* the great multitude. The only explanation that seems to work is that they are not two groups (or a smaller in a bigger), but rather that they are the *same group*. And again, anybody know why Dan & Ephraim aren't in the list of the 12? **wink** | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 41 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi, I know this thread is a little old, but I had to share a few thoughts I stumbled across last night. I don't know what rose up in me to begin this thread, but it was a simple thing and then became more complicated (I had not heard of the theory of the 144,000 joining the Great Multitude), as I had new things to consider and pray over. Earlier Colleen wrote: "Both Jews and Gentiles comprise the great multitude, as I see it, but the groups may be treated distinctly at different times." The thought I've had about this is that the distinct treatment they receive is *because* of their approach to God. That is, God deals with them according to the Gospel of Christ -- but what they receive from God depends on how they accept or reject Him. In other words, **Jews may receive a different treatment because they approach God on the basis of the Old Covenant.** When they cease to approach Him on on the basis of the Old Covenant (on the basis of works), they will find His grace is the same to everybody. In a way it's the same for the way the Lord deals with Seventh-day Adventism -- they too miss Him because of the Old Covenant. The difference, you see, is not that God necessarily treats a group different, but rather that the group misses God because they don't know Him by faith in His Son. The way God deals with a group is based on *their beliefs and decisions*, not on their genetics. In Romans He speaks to those who continue to find their heritage in the Old Covenant. God does not play DNA favorites (that is, He does not treat us differently because of our DNA). Consider, if a person is born of Jewish descent and yet is raised by Christian parents as a Christian, will not that person be dealt with as a Christian and not as a "Jew"? And conversely, if a person is born a "Gentile" and becomes Jewish by embracing the Old Covenant, will not God treat that person as a "Jew"---or rather, as one who lives by the Old Covenant and is in need of the knowledge of His glorious New Covenant? Again, I believe the "distinction" between Christians and Jews in God's sight is this: "Old Covenant vs. New Covenant". It is not based on genetics, but is based on willful bondage to one of two covenants. Again, what makes one a Jew? It is obedience to the Old Covenant. Not all of those who are Jews today are descended directly from Jacob. (In fact, ironically, some Muslims living in Iran may have more genetic link and claim to "Israel" than many Jews who are descended from prostelytes, because the northern kingdom was exiled to the land of the Medes.) So then, God deals with all groups according to the Gospel. But what of Romans 9, 10 and 11? From the outset it needs to be recognized that Paul is answering a question: "Are the Jews rejected by God because they rejected the Messiah?" His answer is a resounding "No!", because Grace is still available for them as it is for us all. "Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious." (Rm.11:11) Now, about Revelation. Revelation is a cry & call to the whole earth, to *all* nations. This is seen immediately by those to whom it was delivered---the seven churches, which were no doubt comprised of Jew, Greek, Gentile and anyone else who came to Christ. Revelation needs to be seen through the Gospel, not through the lense of separation by race or religion, and especially not according to the distinctions wrought by the Old Covenant! (We must not interpret Revelation according to the flesh---according to the circumcision of the flesh!---but rather according to the Spirit and the circumcision done by Him). When we interpret Revelation 7 (the passage mentioning the 144,000 [144] and the Great Multitude [GM]) through our lense of "nations" instead of the Gospel, we lose focus on the Gospel & His heart's cry. Consider today that Israel is beset by the same problems we have: ungrace and dire thirst for God's agape love! Okay, all this said, I gave some consideration to the idea that the 144 were Israel and then join the GM (as the Nations), and I began to notice some things. #1) This idea puts Paul and Revelation in conflict. In Paul (Romans), the "full number of Gentiles" comes into Israel **before** the Israelites come to Christ. They see the Gentiles receiving their King, and they then come to the King. But in Revelation 7---according to the Split-144/GM idea---it is the other way around. According to the Split 144/GM idea, Revelation 7 has Israel recognizing God (being sealed by the Holy Spirit---Eph.1:13-14) **before** they join the Nations. Granted, this is a minor point which could be interpreted differently, but it brings up another interesting distinction... #2) If we look at Rev.7 according to the Split-144/GM idea, then we notice a completely reversed viewpoint. Paul speaks of the Gentiles coming into "Israel". But Revelation would seem to show Israel coming into "the Nations"! The more important group in Romans is "Israel", while the greater group in Revelation is "the Nations". Romans: "nations" ===go into==> "ISRAEL" Revelation: "israel" ===go into==> "THE NATIONS" Now let's look through the idea that was put forth at the beginning of this thread (144=GM). Romans declares that "Israel" is comprised of those who are Abraham's children *by faith*, the children of promise, those who trust in God's righteousness instead of their own works. Revelation (according to the 144=GM idea) also declares that "Israel" is comprised of those who are Abraham's children by faith in Christ (they are sealed by the Holy Spirit who comes when they believe the Gospel of their salvation). Romans: Israel = faith, Abraham's kids, in Christ Revelation (144=GM): Israel = faith, Abraham's kids, in Christ This brought me to another realization... #3) In Revelation 7, the 144 are said to have been "sealed" and the GM are said to have "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb". These are the SAME THING! Namely, they have accepted Christ and been clothed by His sacrficed blood, wearing His righteousness. The Holy Spirit (the "seal") bears witness of this. This brings up yet another realization... #4) Many Christians are banking our end times "sequences" on something; we're looking out for a sign. We're looking for many Jews to accept Christ. Perhaps we expect them to come to churches, or to issue forth a great statement of accepting Christ. But the common denominator is that we are expecting something *visible*. Yet Revelation 7 mentions nothing visible to *us*. Instead it talks of "sealing" SO THAT *ANGELS* can see who is God's and who is not God's. It's about what God sees, not about what *we* see. We live by faith, not by sight. We live by the Spirit, not by sight. I therefore venture to speculate that the "revival" among Jews **may not be visible to us**! It may, or it may not. The important thing is that in God's sight they will be sealed! And for this (whether we "see" it or not) we must rejoice! "The Lord knows who are His" is what the Scripture says. #5) Finally, the description of the GM in Revelation 7:15-17 is a nearly matching parallel description of the "Restoration of Israel" in Isaiah 49:8-13. This suggests clearly that the GM are considered as "Israel"! It lends further credence to the idea that the 144 *are* the GM, that they are the same group. Consider also that the 144 mention tribes that are today long lost. The "kingdom" of Israel has not looked anything near "whole" since the days of Solomon. But Revelation 7, by mentioning 12 tribes, speaks of the "restoration" of the whole "Israel". Might I take it one step further? The "coming in" of Gentiles into Israel *is* part of the restoration of the kingdom. See, the calling of Abraham in the first place was to be "a blessing to the nations". This can't happen so long as Israel is fighting for herself. She is not blessing the nations, and the nations are not being blessed by her. She's fighting for dear life today. But if she seeks instead to lose her life, she will find it. There's the Gospel again! So then, Christ has restored the Kingdom! He's building it through us. Someday Israel of the OC will see their King who today reigns on the throne of David, and will **come home**. Yes, they live on the land of Canaan now, but they have not come home yet! Canaan bore the curse of slavery from Noah, and as they (and any of us) cling to land instead of God and their neighbors, they are indeed in slavery and in need of "dying" and finding freedom. The nations are Christ's inheritance. The nations are why Abraham was blessed. The nations are Israel's inheritance. The nations are *our* inheritance! Our neighbors are our inheritance! The "wealth of the nations" in Christ's eyes are the people He has died for! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4024 Registered: 12-2003 |
Very interesting thoughts, Ramone. You make me want to study this subject more in depth myself. I've never done an exhaustive inductive study comparing Revelation to the OT prophecies and to Romans. You make a provocative statement: "The "coming in" of Gentiles into Israel *is* part of the restoration of the kingdom." That makes some sense to me. Based on the Romans passages alone (the only ones I've really studied in any depth), though, I still see that the elect of Israel will be brought back into the "true Israel", or the olive tree of God, AFTER the full number of Gentiles has come in. Until then, as a group, they are experiencing the curse that was "promised" in the old covenant if they were unfaithful to their promises. After rejecting Jesus, Israel was scattered among the nations, this time for two millennia (so far), and there has been no Divine intervention on their behalf as there was in the OT. Yet Paul says the elect will be brought in, and when they come, their coming will be like life from the dead for the world. Very interesting subject. Thanks, Ramone. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 42 Registered: 10-2002 |
Your welcome! (^_^) I agree with what you said about the Romans passage --- Paul is really clear about that. The thing I began to wonder last night, however, is how "visible" this coming in will be. For example, earlier Paul had cited Elijah and the 7,000 who had not bowed the knee to Baal. From that story we never get to "see" those 7000, you know? And we don't know if Elijah ever got to see them, either. In that same way, Paul says, there is a "remnant" of Israel faithful to Him. It appears that Paul is aiming at nixing any hint of inclination we might have to pronounce Israel (or any people for that matter) "rejected" or having fallen "beyond His mercy". The other thing seems to be that God is directing us to what *He* sees instead of what *we* can see. While there will most very likely be obvious manifestations of salvation (that is, being able to "see" people have accepted Christ), at the same time there is the possibility that like Elijah (and Paul), we will have to take this *on faith*. God is calling us to see by faith and trust Him, and cry out in intercession for those on His heart-----and then believe the assurances He gives us whether we can see the result or not! Wow! One of the things that I think Adventists & Dispensationalists get hung up on is the word "remnant". To Adventists it means "the true church" and to Dispensationalists it means "Israel" (or "Israel during the tribulation"). I just looked up all the references to the word "remnant" in the old KJV between Isaiah and Revelation... http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=remnant&searchtype=all&version1=9&bookset=2 What becomes obviously apparent is that "remnant" is not a *name*. It's just a word meaning "the rest of". "Remnant" is a principle, and as internet author Chip Brogden says, it's a principle of how God deals with us. His word is sent to many, but not everyone believes. Many were circumcised in the flesh, but a remnant was circumcised in the heart. Okay, honestly, here's the thing, Colleen. I don't want to get anywhere near Adventist beliefs, but at the same time as I look over those references, I can't help but see that God is going to do a "sifting" in the Body of Christ. Jesus talked a lot about it, actually. There are many who will call "Lord, Lord" but will not know Him. There are many whose agape love will grow cold (actually, frighteningly, Jesus said the agape of *most* would grow cold). In Adventism I would look at information like this and somewhat pat myself on the back for knowing "the truth". But now... now it is different. My heart ACHES, Colleen. I want to cry. Have you ever been praying and felt something on God's heart and then suddenly burst into weeping? That happens now as I write of this. There are many who are circumcised in the flesh (baptized, or bearing the title "Christian") but who have not laid down their lives for Christ in sight of what He has fully done for us (circumcised by the Spirit in the heart). Peter said that "judgment begins at the house of God", and from what Jesus said of things, it does seem like He is going to SHAKE things. It's likely not "judgment" in that sick "investigative judgment" sense at all. Instead it is the discipline/chastening of the Lord. It is *redemptive judgment*. It's the same as each of the cries He sent through His prophets in the Old Testament---they were given with the aim of drawing His people back to Him. I don't know what to say in sight of all this. It's certainly sobering, yet He does the shaking so that what is unshakeable may come forth. We've all experienced that personally, you know? Why would He *not* also do that for His people on a larger scale? I think He moved according to a "remnant" principle all throughout the Bible... not necessarily because He wanted to, but because *that's the way humans are*. That's the way that sin and religion grip us. Many receive, some believe, some do not. If that's the way it happened to Israel in the Old Testament, and if that's the way that it happened likewise in Paul's day (as he said in Romans), and that's the way it'll happen with Israel in the end, then why would the same thing not happen to those who proclaim themselves as "the church"? Adventist theology took this idea with pride and declared itself the "remnant church"... yet the whole point of "remnant" (as shown in the Elijah reference) is that *we can't see* who is God's and who is not, and even if we think there are none, God says, "No, I've still got some." The notion of "remnant" is one that should (1) cause us to seek God for ourselves and trust Him alone to tell us we belong to Him, and (2) it should cause us to cry out for the nations and for the people who claim to be His but really don't know Him. As for the "remnant of Israel" as Paul put it, the larger message of Romans is that God has dealt with people through His grace in Christ (the Gospel), but the way we experience it will depend on which Covenant we are under. Again, I can't see that God will deal with Israel any differently because of their genetic identity. The prophecy Paul spoke in Romans 11 is due to the faith they have (living under the Old Covenant) -- as it is their life according to the Old Covenant that gives them their identity. You know, now that I look at what you noted about what Paul said ("their acceptance will be like life from the dead" for the world), I think I begin to see what this means. Remember the damage wrought between Adventists and other denominations because of Adventism's pride and division? Then remember how Dale Ratzlaff's books (and your efforts, Proclamation, your testimonies and all of ours) have been used by God to bless people? Those who found Christ brought life (Christ) to others who had been dead! Remember how the Worldwide Church of God was led to Christ with the helkp of Dale's books? And now their testimony is blessing the Body of Christ and particularly those searching in other "Christian cults", including Adventists and Mormons. They (and we) were "the dead" and have been brought to life (Christ). Now they and we too are bringing others who are in death to life (Christ). Our contribution to the Body of Christ as Adventists has not been from what we got "right", but from what we got *wrong*! We can help so many now because we were *so wrong*. What I'm getting at is that I think it may look the *same* for Israel, or rather, the spiritual effect will be the same. If we look at Israel today she is in much trouble, trying desperately to secure the safety of her people within the boundaries she once had long ago, because she feels like "if only we had that..." then well, something. You know that feeling? "If only I could do this, then everything would be okay!" or "If only someone else would do this, then God would be able to move!" The very thing we cling to is the thing that most prevents us from receiving the wonderful blessing God has for us. It's the same for Israel. In so doing, the nations around Israel have felt like Israel was anything *but* the blessing that God called Abraham's children to be. "Life from the dead?" Imagine. Imagine if Israelis suddenly saw how much Christ loved them and how much He loved their neighbors! Imagine they receive His agape love and begin to see their neighbors through His love! Imagine they begin to see their neighbors as "God's inheritance" and as their own inheritance! Now wouldn't THAT be "life from the dead"!! Their land is enshrouded in death and the cycle of vengeance. Christ's love compelling many to "love not their lives to the death" and to "love one another as He loved us" would be like an explosive bomb of agape in the reigon. I can't say how this might "look", but I think it will reflect the remnant principle and the "violence" that has accompanied what we've seen in leaving Adventism and what the WCG experienced in turning to Christ. In other words, those who do so (bring life from the dead) will greatly anger many Israelis who reject His grace & agape. Additionally, not all of their neighbors would accept it. But many would, and it would be shocking to behold. I believe this is how Israel is being called to---and how a remnant of Israel WILL---be "life from the dead" for the world. Wow. This is very cool indeed. God is awesome. Yet I feel Him driving me & all of us to intercession about these things so that they will indeed come about! He's looking for people who will stand in the gap and intercede, for spiritual wombs to birth the purposes of His heart in the world----and in the Middle East! Just as His heart for Adventists has been to bring them from death to life, so His heart's cry is for Israel to accept His life and so bring life to a region immersed in death! Lord, let Your will be done! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4026 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Ramone, I think you are making some excellent points. I don't know how it will "look" nor if we will actually be aware of it's happening when it happens, but God is bringing all who are His to Spiritual lifeóin His time and in the same wayóthrough submission to the blood of Christ. I agree that when the "un-hardening" occurs (whether or not we are aware of it at the time) the "A-ha!" of those Israelites who suddenlty realize they have been redeemed from their heritage of severe discipline will be astonishing. And, as you mentioned, their understanding of Jesus and what He has really done for them will be deep and profound in ways different from the understanding of those who have not carried the weight of the law. Not that their experience will be "more special", but it will be different; they will have different insights. I also resonate to your personal call to intercede. A couple weeks ago at Bible study, Elizabeth commented that, as in Hebrews 13 it asks us to visit those in prison and to care for them as for ourselves [referring to believers imprisoned for Jesus], our call in countries where we are free to worship is to pray for the imprisoned, persecuted church. Prayer is not just a placebo designed to make us feel good and "get in line" with God's will. We really don't know how it works, but it is something God asks us to do, and it is powerful and real. Interesting ideas! Collen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 53 Registered: 10-2002  |
I researched a little and posted up something about Dan & Ephraim, the two missing tribes in Revelation 7, here: http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/1388.html?1149227664 |
