| Author | Message | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 507 Registered: 1-2003  |
Lynne, you make some very good points. Thanks for your thoughtful post. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1638 Registered: 3-2005 |
A few months ago, I was headed down a theological road where I was thinking that logically speaking, the five points of Calvinism are directly opposed to the five points of Arminianism, and that logically speaking, I could not reconcile both systems as being true. Arminians present a Jesus who is somewhat more passive than the Calvinist Jesus who actively seeks and saves everyone he intended to save from before eternity past, where the Arminian Jesus draws us, but leaves it up to us to exercise our free will. Arminianism believes that man's spirit is not totally dead, whereas Calvinism teaches that man's spirit has to be miraculously resurrected monergistically. So, logically, Arminianism and Calvinism are two different gospels if you will. There are those today, such as Dave Hunt in the Calvary Chapel movement and who's book painting Calvinism as a false gospel was even endorsed by the head of the Calvary Chapel movement, but Hunt said that Calvinism borders on blasphemy. And I am sure you will hear from hyper-calvinists saying the same thing about Arminians. However, I ran across an excellent discussion of this topic by John MacArthur--who is an ardent Calvinist--where he was asked whether Arminianism is a false gospel. MacArthur is far more charitable than Dave Hunt. Here is a link to this discussion which I find very relevant to our discussion about whether you can believe some of SDAs bad doctrines and be saved. www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/70-19-6.htm On this link MacArthur states some interesting points about why some people believe bad doctrine, but are still really saved, because, salvation does not involve a theology test. He even acknowledges that those who believe they can lose their salvation are not necessarily heretical. SDA, after rising from its Millerite roots adopted much of the theology of Ellen White's previous Methodist church. Ellen White copied from Finney and Wesley. So, that is why even evangelical SDA pastors theology sounds different to some of us who have embraced the doctrines of Sovereign grace--Calvinism for the nickname. MacArthur, himself went to Arminian schools and was educated totally in their philosophy. So his theory is that when people have a certain mindset, and this set of beliefs is handed down, then it is almost impossible to change the minds of some of these people. But the question is, do we really attribute all understanding of bad doctrine to Satan, or maybe just a certain mindset. There are some Hyper-calvinists who would vigorously disagree with MacArthur and say Arminianism is demonic. I am not denying that any works based system is ultimately from Satan, but how far do we want to go in labeling people who think differently, and who have doctrines that are unBiblical, vs saying that these doctrines are damning? I know of many SDAs who have come up all their life in SDA, and giving lip service to EGW. Sabbath, etc. but the evidence is they don't really believe in Ellen White. A lot of these people are not theologians, but they genuinely love the Lord, and their lives show the fruit of the spirit--yes, I have met these people. The same thing is true when it comes to the free-will vs. free-grace argument. To me, being a Christian is so much easier when the doctrines of God's absolute sovereignty are grasped vs living in fear of losing your salvation--that is the point MacArthur makes on that link above. I would like to get feedback if the arguments MacArthur advances on this issue have any relevance to the faithful everyday SDA who really does love Jesus, but has doctrines that keep them in bondage. I still think of Chris Lee's parable in a recent Proclamation with regard to living the Christian life in bondage or in freedom. Somehow, to me the increasing understanding of God's sovereignty just makes me want to be a little more tolerant now towards what I think is some aberrant theology, but not necessarily damning theology. I see where God had me raised in Adventism, so I could grasp God's grace more fully, and He had his own good reasons for placing me there, but now I praise Him for His deliverance. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3929 Registered: 12-2003  |
Actually, Lynne, while they might not phrase it so clearly to themselves, I believe most Adventists and probably all pastors ARE aware of the goal of the GC and church leadership to make Christians into Adventists. I grew up hearing that So-and-So was such a nice person and they were sincere about their beliefs; they would make "such good Adventists". Always there was the underyling idea that evangelism was for the purpose of teaching "all the truth", not just "part" of it. I've heard people for years saying about on-fire Christians, "It's just too bad; all they have is Jesus." Even today Adventists advertise their evangelistic meetings by including prhases such as they are teaching the "full gospel". That's always "code" for the Sabbath, state of the dead, and Adventism in general. I know this is a pretty generalized statement, but I don't really believe that any long-term Adventist or pastor employed by the church doesn't know that the easiest converts are other Christians, and their "mission" is to present the Sabbath truth to whomever they can in order for them to "have the knowledge of the Sabbath" when they stand before the Lord in judgment. If people miss the opportunity to inform their Christian friends about the Sabbath truth, they themselves will be held responsible in the judgment. Now, perhaps some pastors and individual SDAs no longer believe this underlying motive, but believe me, they do know it. You are right, of course, that God is greater than all the deception. We who are here are testaments to that fact! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1239 Registered: 10-2004  |
Great post, Colleen. Lynne, the "they" I was referring to is the SDA church. That statistic was announced at the 2000 GC Session. Stan, I do believe there is a difference between believing you can lose your salvation while still believing that salvation is by faith in Jesus alone (many true Christians fall in this category), and believeing that you have to keep the commandments/sabbath in order to not lose your salvation. The latter is the same salvation by works gospel that Adventism has always preached. In other words, my point is that there really is no difference in saying we have to "keep the sabbath to be saved" or saying we have to "keep the Sabbath to stay saved." They both result in "we have to keep the Sabbath to get to heaven." Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1639 Registered: 3-2005 |
I agree Jeremy, but when I read MacArthur's reasoning, the exact same arguments could be used to see why some SDAs believe as they do, and this must be why MacArthur himself acknowledges that some SDAs are indeed saved despite their doctrine. The Bible has some very simple tests of salvation. 'You must be born again' "We are born not of human decision, but born of God" John 3. Romans 10: 9,10 "If you confess with your mouth that jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" Acts 13 "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" i believe a lot of SDAs are truly born again by God's grace alone, despite believing doctrines that put them in bondage. There are very few doctrinal tests for salvation. However, Paul has the strongest language possible for church leaders such as those in RCC and SDA, and any other group who teaches this mingling of faith and works, and that is in Gal. 1:8,9 "If we or an angel from heaven preach a gospel that we did not preach, then let him be eternally condemned". That is where the line is drawn. The heart of the gospel is justification by faith alone--the imputed righteousness of Christ, and any RCC or SDA attempt to add sanctification to justification is to be condemned in the strongest possible terms. That is where tolerance ends. Stan | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 391 Registered: 10-2005 |
Colleen - Perhaps your perspective of "being easier to convert Christians" is relevant in your experience. However, when I started with the Adventists, I remember a comment being made that it was much easier to teach me than people who learned the bible the other way. In other words it took a bit more undoing, more work, it was harder to get them (Christians) to believe certain unique "truths" in Adventism than it was for me. All the Adventists had to do with me was teach me and I believed them because they made sense to me in many ways. Also, my husband has been a non-Adventist Christian for many years and I realize now that he was pretty well suited with armor. I think a Christian having the full armor of God is enough protection to keep a Christian from being converted - I think that Ephesians 6 tells me that. Because like I said before, comparative to counterfeit money, you know what is fake when you have seen what is real. My husband did not see me as a person as being a fake Christian. And he was right about that. But he knew something was off with certain doctrine in Adventism. I have not been a perfect Christian over the years and have struggled much more than he has as a result of the doctrine I was taught. But even with his armor, he hasn't been a perfect Christian either. Nobody is. But he was never converted and has expressed to me that he never could be converted to Adventist. Even if he encouraged me to stay away from eating meat, due to certain influences, if you know what I mean. Of course Christians are not above being deceived through lies, but really, I think the Adventists have it much easier evangelizing people such as myself. DM Canright was like that as well. The Adventist Church has learned though, that with such a high attrition rate, it is best for them to start people in Adventism while they are young. That is when their habits are formulated and most in-born Adventists make much better Adventists overall and stay because they haven't seen the world any other way. Whereas other Christians have seen it another way as well as people not born into the culture. Here is an article reflecting that http://news.adventist.org/data/2001/10/1005680967/index.html.en Stan - I haven't yet listened to John MacArthur. I will post after I listen to him. However, I don't think you can put Arminian slants in some mainstream denominations in the same context that you do in Adventism. I realize you were born into the Adventism and Adventist teachings really go overboard in making sure people know that they are not really saved... Believe me, even with a touch of Arminian, I don't believe you are in any way feeling more assurance than I am in my salvation because you are a pure Calvanist. Lynne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1240 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stan, I think all of us on this forum agree that there are some saved Christians within the SDA church. And from what I've read from MacArthur, I am actually "less strict" than him about people being true Christians.  Anyway, I don't think that you can use MacArthur's comments about Arminians and apply them to SDAs who say that you have to keep the Sabbath/commandments or else you'll lose your salvation, except maybe these comments of his:
Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 10, 2006) | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 504 Registered: 7-2004  |
Stan, in a roundabout way you made the same point that I have been trying to make in several posts. If we want to be credible, we need to apply the same criteria to SDAs and SDAism that we apply to other opposing theological viewpoints. If one applies that same criteria to each group consistently and comes to the conclusion that SDAism should be classed among the cults, then I don't have any particular heartache over their conclusions. But it is harder to apply the conclusions objectively and consistently than any of us are probably willing to admit. But credibility demands that we must make an effort to do so. | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 54 Registered: 4-2006  |
Lynne, I want to believe you. And you all have the experience in SDA that I don't have. I'm not sure though about what you said regarding someone who is well grounded (my words-not yours)in Christianity being a harder target for SDA than non believers. Did I change it around too much here? Anyway, there is no way on God's green earth that I as a non-former will be swayed in my beliefs. So there I agree. However (and I always come back to this-forgive me) my reason for being on this forum is fear of my daughter converting to SDA to keep her boyfriend, J. She was practically born a Christian into an Assembly of God Family. One of those who can't testify as to a date of salvation because she has known nothing else. Educated K-12 in private Christian schools and currently taking night classes at a Christian College. She loves the lord and is grounded, intelligent and well informed. But, never the less, blinded by love by this guy who is as adamently SDA as I am-what do I call it?-main stream. Does my frustration show here? I'm a little peeved about D's high school letting in an SDA member in the first place when they give even Catholics a double look before admitting them. I know J, if we were buddies, would no more try to convert me than he could fly. He would know that I am not a candidate. But, what!?, does he see a soft target in D and get some sort of a merit badge for "bringing her into the truth"? She's beautiful and charming but so are some SDA girls out there. I wish I could chain D up with you folks for a few days-maybe you could talk some sense into her. CW | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1235 Registered: 7-2003  |
Here's the deal CW. SDAs have traditionally believed that they have a special end-times purpose. They believe it is their special duty to call God's people out of Babylon (Sunday Churches). It is for this reason that they were raised up. If they are not calling Christians out of Babylon and into the Remnant Church (SDA), then they are not fulfilling their duty. This doesn't mean that SDAs don't witness to non-Christians, but that is not really their focus because that is not the primary purpose for which they were raised up. In addition, many SDAs believe that your salvation is based on how well you live up to the light that you have. So in some ways it is easier for the garden variety pagan to be saved in their ignorance then it is for a Christian to be saved who knows a lot of truth. In fact, the Investigative Judgment is a judgment of professed believers only. This means there is somewhat less urgency, in some minds, to covert non-Christians because unbelievers can be saved in their ignorance and they are not subject to the Investigative judgement. There is however urgency in converting professed Christians because they have the Bible and should know such things as the Sabbath Truth. They will be subject to the Investigative Judgment and they will receive the Mark of the Beast if they continue to worship on Sunday once it becomes clear that the Sabbath is the great testing Truth of the end times. Having said all this, I doubt that your daughter was selected because she was a Christian. It's not like there is a conspiracy going on per se. It's much more likely that they simply met and fell in love just like anyone else. I'm just making the point that many (maybe most) SDAs are hard-wired by their upbringing to "witness" to Christians, but not so much to non-Christians. At least that was my experience in Adventism. Others may have different experiences. Chris | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 393 Registered: 10-2005 |
CW - Okay, it has been my experience that I didn't want to convert anyone to Adventism any more than Christians want to convert Christians to Christianity. However, the Adventists know it isn't about one thing (ie Christ). It is a process. They call salvation a process. And I, as an Adventist thought that if one sees certain things in the bible as I was taught, or the health message in light of science, one might be persuaded to consider Adventism. And it would be my hope that my husband might consider my religion, but we went into our marriage respecting each others differences. I also knew an old time Adventist lady who was married to a Catholic. We both shared about our experiences with dating Adventist men who were not very good for us. We both shared quite the same experience that we met nice godly gentlemen outside of our denomination. But I also must say again, I didn't know the church behind the church when I started with the Adventists and that was around the time I was married. That well grounded thing I mentioned to you was just something my husband shared with me about how he felt about Adventism. As you have questioned this, rightly so, there are spiritual forces at war and of course we can take up our armor, we will have protection, but there will always be casualties in war even with armor. But I know it is really God who is in total control. So I will praise and lift him up and let you know I am grateful for all that I have experienced even in Adventism. It has made me just who I am today and that is what God wants me to be now. Lynne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3931 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris, that was an excellent summary. It is exactly what I also experienced. Colleen | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 55 Registered: 4-2006 |
Thank you all. And Chris, thanks especially for bringing it down to my level. You folks have so much in common as Formers that a lot of it is over my head. And please don't anyone take offense to this--but since I have never been there, I can't for the life of me see how any one can choose to believe ANY false prophet. Again, I know a lot of you are 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation SDA so you grew up in it as J did, and possibly his parents before him. We don't socialize so I don't know. I know EGW is not considered false by SDA members but WHY NOT???!!! This is a rhetorical question of course but I find myself shaking my head in amazement that anyone could follow her after reading sites like ellenwhite.org, and Ratzlaff's books, etc. This sounds like I'm knocking even you Formers for having been "taken in" and I promise you I'm not. You all blow me away theologically. And you all have the experience of having lived it so you would know better how to battle it. It just makes me want to bury my head in a pillow and scream because I can't fight this the way I want to. It's a spiritual battle and all I can do is pray that D will not be deceived even though she is blinded by love. They aren't talking marriage yet, I hope. But I wonder how much damage is being done even if they end up splitting. I'm afraid she will be so indroctinated that she will insist on finding another SDA member to fall in love with. D hasn't actually joined J's church yet but I'm afraid it's just a matter of time. Thanks for letting me vent, no one else around here will listen. CW | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1236 Registered: 7-2003 |
CW, Don't worry, I'm not offended in the least. I look back and wonder how I could have believed it too. Then again, if it's all you know why wouldnít you believe it? Maybe an analogy would help. Imagine that your very earliest memories in life are of your parents teaching you to say your first words. They would point at the grass in the lawn and coax, ìPurple. Can you say purple, CW?î Naturally, very early on you learned that ìpurpleî is the color of grass. This was reinforced by the fact that nearly everyone you know growing up speaks of grass as being purple. The people you get together with at church every weekend all say grass is purple, the people you do business with say the grass is purple, the friends you hang out with say the grass is purple, even the teachers in the schools you are sent to say that grass is purple. Itís all you know. You look at grass, leaves, alligators, frogs, and Godzilla and think theyíre all ìpurpleî. That is your definition of purple and you have no idea there is another one. Then one day youíre reading on the internet and notice a word youíve never been taught, ìgreenî. Youíre curious because youíve never heard of this ìgreenî thing before. You are mortified to learn that this website says that grass, leaves, alligators, frogs, and Godzilla are all ìgreenî. You know this canít be true because everyone you know has said otherwise since you were born. You begin talking to friends and family and they reassure you that there are few misguided people out there on the internet that are color blind, but you shouldnít worry about that. Donít you think that if grass were really ìgreenî then some of the smartest people we know like Dr. Smith and Pastor Jones would know it? Why would such highly educated people say that grass is purple if itís not? Your grandfather and his father knew that grass is purple. Everyone we have ever known knows that grass is purple. They then take some books off the shelf that you have grown up reading and begin reminding you how all the books, even the childrenís story books, all say that grass is purple. By the time they are done you are greatly reassured that the ìgreen nutsî on the internet are to be avoided as are most other people who are mixed up on their colors. One day you have children and you point at the grass and say, ìPurple. Can you say purple, Jimmy?î And the cycle continues. Chris | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 86 Registered: 11-2005 |
Excellent analogy, Chris. Very well put!! Grace | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 56 Registered: 4-2006 |
Chris, I love ya man. You make a lot of sense and I'm trying to come up with a similar belief in my own life that I think is purple but in truth is green. There probably are some and if I think of one I'll let you know. I would have to be perfect to have the correct answer to every thing and I really doubt that that is the case. Your analogy makes it simple to understand how someone can be born into a belief system, such as SDA, and know no other "truth". The frustrating part for me, and I'm sure my frustration showed in my last post, is how can a reasonable person such as my daughter be inclined to go the other way-stop seeing green as green and start seeing green as purple? Rhetorical question again. I know the answer to this one myself. My wife and I share a daily devotional at bedtime each night from a small devotional book called "On the Right Note" supplied by a local Christian radio station. The May 8th devotional was from John 5:14 "He will listen...whenever we ask...in line with his will." I know, and this I know absolutely, that God's will is for D to not be deceived. That is a no-brainer. So I know that since I'm praying "in line with His will" she will not be deceived. I get some peace from that. My struggle and my frustration are in knowing that even though she won't be deceived, there is nothing to keep her from converting anyway to keep from losing J. I can imagine the nightmare of a relationship when the honey moon is over in trying to live his beliefs instead of taking joy in her own freedom in Christ. Chris, I hope you teach for a living-you would be very good at it. CW | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 203 Registered: 3-2005 |
Great conversation in a PC world. Deciphering how to stand up for truth and at the same time give grace to individuals was demonstrated multiple times in the New Testament. Jesus was the expert at this. He left very little wiggle room for arrogant institutions, religious teachers, leaders and power points and huge spaces of grace for those teachable souls. Notice He almost never got into religious arguments regarding the big divider between Pharisees and Sadducees - the state of the dead. He made statements about the state of the dead but did not seem to be debating the issue. Rather He stuck to Kingdome of God topics that changed hearts and souls. Iím trying to separate the mishandling of truth by teachers, leaders and institutions from those individuals with personal devotion toward a way of belief. Iím trying to do this with everyone including Anti-God Libs, Adventists, Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, even mainline Christians. As for purple grass, good but maybe not complete. Especially for those us who were taught Righteousness by Faith (Venden, etÖ) alongside EGW, the teaching was a bit more difficult than that because we were told that the grass was purple AND green, and that for green to be TRUE green it really had have purple in it or it wasn't true green, which created not only true teachings but also false - a convoluted disaster, which is why itís taken time to untangle the wires. As for CW, maybe youíve addressed this, but can you get to know this boyfriend? Kind of befriend him; take him fishing or hiking, etc.. on a regular basis? I know lots of Christian families who do not encourage dating, rather courting where the father of the "girlfriend" and the boy spend time once a week basically doing some discipleship work. I know of a number of relationships doing this right now. I know most Adventists are unaware of this concept and would be unwilling to ìintrudeî at this level, but Iím witnessing amazing relationships being formed taking this approach, both with the couple and the extended families. This young man could probably really use some discipleship. Hardly anything youíd cover would conflict with his beliefs because youíre dealing with issues of relationship, with commitment to Christ, with Spiritual Leadership, with Servant hood, Sexuality, Accountability, Finances, etcÖ. The youth group my son is joining this summer teaches this kind of involvement between elders and youth as taught in Scripture. This young man may not really know what his beliefs entail, and with relationship, this may be the opportunity for him to experience God from outside the SDA church. I will pray. Lisa | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 84 Registered: 7-2000 |
Chris, your posts are a great description. CW, I do understand your question. I was deceived for many years but I'm no longer angry. My husband and I laugh at ourselves for being so stupid. He is a man of few words and has a way of succinctly putting things in perspective. My husband's retort to statements about SDA's "teachings" being better or near christians than JW & LDS cultic teachings etc., is: "Oh, your spade is blacker than my spade!" SDA friends questioning his exiting Adventism, "Give me a little credit, if I am smart enough to join the church, don't you think I am also smart enough to leave after I studied it." What about Spirit of Prophecy-EGWhite? "It was Jesus' arms that were outstretched on the cross. He is the one who died for my sins." His advice to potential converts or targets; "If it's SDA, no matter what form it takes or how well it's dressed up, Run, RUN!" I agree with him. | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 204 Registered: 3-2005 |
CW, The reason your daughter may be deceived is that Adventists do not teach purple grass to those coming in, they teach green and slowly introduce purple very deceptively, and after they have established that all Christians agree on all these green grass issues, and then bring in the additions... but very smoothly and carefully. You may not be aware that a in the westernized world there are different kinds of Adventist churches. Some (including the only one's we would attend) rarely if ever bring up EGW, never bring up IJ, many, including the pastor eat meat openly, and teach MOST of the Gospel, so if you were to step into an Adventist church off the street as a mainline Christian you'd not be able to tell the different from and Adventist service and, say, a Christian Community Church. The reason mainline Christians get sucked in is that MOST do not fully understand the New Covenant. They are still stuck in parts of the Old Covenant themselves in the form of the 10 commandments, tiething, etcÖ so when the Sabbath is pointed out, it fits into their already established paradigm. The best armor you could give your daughter is the ACTUAL GOSPELÖ. THE NEW COVANAT GOOD NEWS of Jesus.. Lisa | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 672 Registered: 7-2004 |
CW, I feel your anguish and frustration. You are a very, very dear father. The fact that you are here on FAF and, more importantly, in God's Word and diligently praying for God's mercy and grace in this situation with your daughter, I have to believe the promise of Isaiah 55:8,9 -- "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts." God has a purpose and many blessings for you in all this. Without knowing you, except for what I read on this forum, I am led to believe part of God's purpose and blessings have brought you to FAF. Not just for you but for all of us here on the forum. Your voice has been a WONDERFUL addition the last few weeks. And that is just ONE blessing! His ways are covered in purpose and blessings! I can think of several Bible characters who did not understand or begin to know know why they had interruptions in their lives that caused suffering and anguish until much later in their lives. Paul, Joseph, Esther...remember Mordecai's famous words - "...for such a time as this..." I have loved my Bible study of Genesis this year and seeing how the sufferings in the lives of Abraham, Issac, Jacob and Josesph were all turned into blessings. Even those sufferings that were caused by the consequences of their own choices! It really is mind boggling how God uses EVERYTHING. His love and His mercy is beyond comprehension. Which reminds me of Romans 8:28 "And we know that God causes ALL THINGS to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." Also, look at Ps. 27:14; 37:7; Matt. 6:34; 2 Cor. 4:16-18; Heb 12:7;11; 1 Peter 1:3-9; 4:19. All of these truths have given me such encouragement as God has lead me out of Adventism. It has been an 8 year journey. I can see His hand in all the tears, lonliness, dispair...it was all for "such a time as this" - which is TODAY and the joy I have in Jesus Christ, my Provider. Hang in there CW. D is one lucky girl to have such a wonderful, praying father. Stand firm on the promises of God that you know are true and unchanging. He has a purpose through this for you and for D. I am looking forward to hearing how He uses this chapter in your life and D's life in the years to come! In His assurance, Denise |
