| Author |
Message |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1704
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 7:49 pm: |     |
I agree Colleen, that because we have been freed from the bondage that Adventism fosters, that we should be more zealous than ever to evangelize those still in bondage--both for the unsaved and even those who are saved, but still living in chains as in Chris Lee's Proclamation article parable. Because we have been rescued from Adventism--only by God's sovereign grace--we must be ready to use every opportunity to witness to our SDA friends and family, and to do this with firmness, but in love, and in a Christ-like manner.
I like what the Apostle Peter says in 1 Peter 3:15,16 (ESV) "...always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame."
Sola gratia,
Stan |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 235
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 25, 2006 - 10:18 pm: | |
Mary, Ric, you are right, my point is that we all are in a way like Hitler and for all of us God manifested His marvelous grace.
This is why our evaluation of Hitler, or Ellen White, or any other person like, for example, cult leaders who impacted negatively thousands of people, our evaluation is not with a "holier than you" attitude. We can speak the truth in love, no matter how awfull is the truth, without anger or resentment.
Our greatest need is to forgive the spiritual abuse we had suffered because of Ellen White and the adventist church. We had not heard "I'm sorry" , and we need to forgive without hearing these words. This is impossible without first recognizing the deep impact Ellen White have had in our lives, how our life was badly wounded by her and her church. I'll recomand with all my heart the article written by Gary Inrig in Proclamation |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1707
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 8:49 am: | |
I did not see this statement from Hank Hanegraaf when we were discussing the cultic status of Adventism. But he evidently has done quite a lot of research and here is Hank's actual statement on Adventism.
www.equip.org/free/CP0602.htm
Stan |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 723
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 10:47 pm: | |
As former Adventists, we know better than what Hank is telling the world about Adventism. His research is entirely based upon SDA sources--a flawed method of investigation that he did not employ with the Mormons and others. His misunderstanding of Seventh-day Adventism is another valid reason for the existence of this forum in exposing the true nature of Adventism.
Dennis Fischer |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4047
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 12:36 am: | |
Great point, Dennis. I still find it interesting that towards the end of 1997 Hank interviewed Mark Martin on his program and said that the following February he would run a five-day series on Adventism. February cameóno series. When people contacted him, he gave evasive answers. It was about that time he began circulating his statement that he had interviewed over 100 Adventist pastors and teachers and found them to be merely hetorodox with true Christianity in the "evangelical branch" of the church.
I've always wondered what changed his mind...he never acknowledged a change of mind, but he clearly had one. And as you pointed out, Dennis, true investigation doesn't limit itself to church employees. Besides, I know people who took him current published Adventist materials to read; they actually handed the material to him personally.
Questions...
Colleen
|
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 2225
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 11:10 am: | |
How come some of you think EGW is at fault because people are smitten into falling for her lines? I lean more towards the thinking of each man for himself. Anyone who can read and had adaquet comprehension skills can read and learn God's truth for themselves. It's hardly EGW's fault. I'm more into personal responsibility. Who is to blame for someone becomming a drug addict? The dealer who wants to make momey or the stupid person who buys the stuff knowing full well it is harmful? |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 237
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 12:14 pm: | |
I'm not sure that someone who's starting to buy heroine is fully convinced that he will became a drug addict. I guess that somehow he rationalizes his fears and the knowledge about others becoming addicted to heroine.
But the dealer is fully convinced that his clients will became drug addicts. Actually his business is based on their addiction. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1710
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 12:32 pm: | |
Susan,
You make an excellent point. There is a danger of falling into this "victim" mentality. I was speaking with a former SDA physician yesterday, and he was very strong on this point. We were the ones who were deceived By SDA and Ellen White. We give Ellen White far too much credit for leading people to hell. Yes, deceptive teaching does lead to perdition, but we are the ones responsible for believing these deceptions.
Dennis,
I am troubled by your line "we know better than what Hank is telling the world about Adventism"..
This troubles me only because I fear a spirit of spiritual elitism that can set in for many formers like myself. We have to be so careful about not appearing that 'only we on FAF have this knowledge that Adventism is a cult.
But I have to say, that most former SDAs that I come in contact with, will stop short of calling Adventism a full blown cult, and these are folks who have been brought up in the strictest forms of Adventism. The reason there are so many different opinions by formers about Adventism does reflect the diversity in Adventism. We have all come from different situations in Adventism.
I just have trouble with the notion, that only former SDAs are capable of determining whether Adventism is a cult. Just my two cents worth.
Stan
|
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 238
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 12:42 pm: | |
About Ellen White and the spiritual influence, it's good to remember that we are born dead spiritually. This makes us slaves to the spiritual powers of this age, and separated from God and Holy Spirit's regenerating power, we are prey for the deceiving influence of the doctrines of demons.
The intelligence or knowledge is useful, but is not sufficient to protect us from evil, and from the spiritual influence a false prophet exerts over others. We are in a spiritual battle, and without protection, all our skills who are very usefull in our secular choices cannot prevent us from bad choices. |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 239
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 12:52 pm: | |
Stan, we acknowledge our personal responsability in believing Ellen White, but saying that's hardly Ellen White's fault means putting the principal responsability on our shoulders. This is making the deceived person more guilty than the deceiver.
This will change the entire view of the justice, making Satan less responsible for the evil of sin than the world he is deceiving. Are you ready to say that Satan is hardly at fault because the people are buying his lies? |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 726
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 3:33 pm: | |
Stan,
Hank Hanegraaff was NEVER a Seventh-day Adventist nor a Seventh-day Adventist minister. His lacking this experience gives him less expertise, by far, than those who suffered physical, psychological, monetary, and spiritual abuse from Adventism. Furthermore, those who have actually been employed by a cult of any stripe have a knowledge that is otherwise unobtainable.
For example, Adam and Eve were able to give a firsthand report of their blissful life in Eden. Stan, are you saying Adam and Eve's Edenic EXPERIENCE was of no greater significance than their offspring who never lived there? Does experience count for anything? Is an experienced surgeon nothing more than the surgeon who just finished his training or only asked others about surgical procedures? Is an experienced surgeon exhibiting "elitism" by stating his obvious expertise?
Experience in Adventism, even being in the inner circle of the top leadership, gave Dudley Canright an advantage over those who never had a similar, firsthand encounter. His critics never shared a log cabin with Ellen and James White in the Rockies. His critics could not, with any amount of accuracy, state that what Ellen and James White told him was an outright lie by Canright. After all, they were not there. Indeed, there is no substitute for firsthand experience and knowledge.
Dennis Fischer |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 264
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 10:00 pm: | |
I must admit, Iíve been scratching and shaking my head as I read some of the posts on this and a few of the other threads. I didnít really want to jump in but as time has gone by and Iíve had some time to think about it, I feel compelled to offer another POV. I donít mean to be derisive and I hope I donít come off that way because thatís definitely NOT my intention. What I say is in sincere Christian love for all here.
Jeremy mentioned a few posts up the following:
quote:First, as Colleen has tried to point out multiple times, this forum is not a forum for witnessing, primarily.
...
But again, this forum is not even targeted primarily towards those still loyal to the SDA church, as Colleen said above.
Whether or not the primary purpose of this site is for witnessing or the primary audience is not those still loyal to the SDA church really doesnít matter. The fact is that while functioning also as a support group for formers, this site IS utilized as a witnessing tool and IS promoted as such. Here are a couple of examples:
1. During the phone interviews last year with Tim Berands during the GC Session in St. Louis, formeradventist.com was mentioned several times by the host and guests as a resource for those Adventists who may be questioning and even directly appealed to those 70,000 in town for the convention.
2. This is site is promoted every issue in Proclamation!, a magazine targeted at ìFormer Adventists ñ Inquiring Adventists ñ Sabbatarians ñ Concerned Evangelicalsî as listed directly under the title of the magazine. Inside the cover are listed this site and the LAM site. If Iím an Adventist reading Proclamation! for the first time and wanting to find out more, being the Internet junkie that I am, Iíd go to either or both of those listed sites for further investigation.
This causes me to think back to my own mind set when I began questioning. If Iíd, on my first visit, read that someone whom I had doubts about yet who I hadnít been totally convinced was a false prophet (yet!) was labeled as a Satan-worshiping murderer and that posts and threads were devoted to proving and defending this(even after the appeal was made by respected, long-time members of the forum - not that they'd know that), I can all but guarantee what would have happened next. I would have branded the source as bitter, extremist and not credible, thought ìWow, this is a different tone then in Proclamation!, and then looked elsewhere for answers to my questions. Again, thatís just me, though I do know for a fact that this occurs.
In light of this, an appeal for a more moderate tone does not seem unreasonable, nor does it seem deserving of chastening, IMO. Also I havenít heard anyone backpedaling to say that Adventism doesnít preach a false gospel or follow a false prophet. It is possible to expose the errors of a false religion while presenting it in a way that glorifies Christ, demonstrates fruit of the Spirit, and doesn't offend those seekers still in that system who need help the most, keeping in mind that what is posted here can be viewed by anyone anywhere in the world.
Some here have listened to the Tim Oliver presentation on SDAism. Even Tim said that there are some things you shouldnít include in your presentation of the true gospel to SDAís (or other groups like them) or you run the risk of turning them off at the get go and destroying your witness completely. I think heís right about that.
Stanís quote of 1 Peter 3:15,16 stated it well, but I also think Phil 1:27 is appropriate:
27 Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; Phil 1:27 (NASB)
I pray that egos can be swept aside and common ground can be found to unify for the good of advancing the true gospel of grace and the love of Christ in a manner worthy of that gospel.
Heretic |
Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 550
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 10:14 pm: | |
Dennis, first let me say that there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that SDAism is Spiritually abusive. IMO, the phrase "Spiritually abusive" is one of the most accurate descriptors we can use in expressing our experiences to others. Some might content that this alone qualifies SDAism as a cult.
There is also no doubt that our experiences in SDAism give us a perspective and understanding that can not be obtained simply by interviewing and meeting with SDAs. BUT that experience is also tempered by the biases that we have as a result of the abuses that we have experienced in the church and, for many of us, since we have left. I think that we have both advantages and disadvantages in being knowledgeable and objective.
Personally the further I have moved away from SDAism the more I have realized my need to learn from those who haven't spent years in bondage and deception. I hope that my own experiences mean that they might learn from me at the same time. But there are just so many areas in which my Spiritual understanding and growth has been stunted within SDAism that I am only beginning to understand how much I have to learn. |
Richardtinker
Board Administrator
Username: Richardtinker
Post Number: 41
Registered: 4-1999
| | Posted on Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 10:26 pm: | |
Dear forum members,
Thank you much for all you contributions on this thread. But there comes a time when we need to stop focusing on whether the Adventist church is a cult or not. Each of us knows what we experienced. And praise God he called us out and into His wonderful Grace!
As one of our forum members reminded me today, we need to apply the following verse to everything that we post here.
"Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you." Ephesians 4:29-32 (NIV)
Richard
(This thread and topic is closed) |
|
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page