| Author | Message | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 85 Registered: 7-2000 |
CW, I am hopeful for your daughter. Your story is very similiar to a family's I know here in Texas. It may scare you, but the couple got married. The girl was about 19 when she and the Adventist guy, my friend's son began dating. The girl's family belonged to an EV Free congregation. Like your daughter, this girl was a believer, but began attending the SDA church with her boyfriend often. I don't remember if he did attend with her on Sundays. Funny, they met at a "dancing joint"- weekly Texas Ho-down and Scottish dancing. The boy and his Adventist parents were normal, but loved dancing. The girl's parents became uncomfortable after learning about SDAism but were tolerant since the girl was over 18. The relationship soured and the girl left her parent's home abruptly and with approval from the boy's parents moved into their R.V. which was parked in their yard for a while, notwithstanding her parents' consternation. When the wedding rolled around, the boy's parents with help from friends arranged everything. The girl's parents were not involved, however, the pastor from her parents' church stayed connected with her and even attended the wedding. I will forever remember the sad look on the girl's face on her wedding day. She was insistent. I think she respected her father enough and if he was not walking the isle with her, no one was giving her away. She walked ALONE. I commend her but felt sadness. It did not matter how friendly the people, mostly all Adventists, were to her she was still not part of them in spirit. There is hope, CW. A year or two later a miracle (I imagine answer to prayer) the guy became more and more open and became a believer and follower of Christ. He exited the Adventist church and with his wife began attending church on Sunday. Now, his father will not speak with him, did not attend his graduation from college and told him he was brainwashed by the girl and the Sunday people. Imagine that! The girl and her parents have restored their relationship. It is wonderful. I like Lisa's suggestion about starting a relationship with the guy. God is good! There is hope for your daughter, I have seen it happened. There may be worst times before you begin to see good, but there is hope. Do continue to uphold your parental responsibility but I want you to know, it may get rougher before it gets better. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1241 Registered: 10-2004  |
CW, You wrote: "I know EGW is not considered false by SDA members but WHY NOT???!!! This is a rhetorical question of course but I find myself shaking my head in amazement that anyone could follow her after reading sites like ellenwhite.org, and Ratzlaff's books, etc." That is where that word "Satanic" comes in. I do not use that word lightly. SDAs are under a real, literal Satanic/demonic hold, that only God can break. They are blinded (with a veil--2 Cor. 3), and they cannot see the truth or that EGW is a false prophet, until God breaks the hold and removes the veil. And when you are set free (but not until), you can definitely feel that hold that you were under. It is quite creepy, actually. It truly is a spiritual battle. There are demonic forces behind the deception (1 John 4:1-3, 1 Tim. 4:1-6, Eph. 6:10-16), trying to deceive even true Christians. Praise God that He is in control! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 11, 2006) | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 57 Registered: 4-2006  |
This is more feed back on my problems than I expected. Thank you all. And Lisa, right now the idea of becoming buddies with J is hard for me to wrap my brain around. I have come to consider EGW the enemy and her disciples, that would include J, as the enemy as well. I did invite him to dinner once before I educated myself in SDA doctrine but it never happened. Now that I know more about SDA I honestly don't want a relationship with him. I understand what you are saying though and some people could probably do that. I just don't think I am one of those people-at least not right now. And The New Covenant gets mentioned on this form often. As a non-former I have heard the term and in communion services those scriptures are often used. But this may seem odd to you folks-in a fifetime of main stream church attendance I haven't had a lot of teaching about the New Covenant. Why not? Because there has been no need to argue against the Law. We have never been held to it so we don't need teachings as much about how to break from it. There, I knew my non-former views would be valuable for something in this forum. And Bmorgan, I have already had the conversation with D about walking her down the aisle if it comes to that. And it was a civil and matter-of-fact discussion, not a fight, but I would consider it a sin on my part to in any way welcome a false prophet into my family. Giving them my blessing or walking her down the aisle to him would be compromising my beliefs. Now I guess I'm the one who sounds self-righteous. I asked her at that time if she would ask me to do something that I consider a sin and she became silent. At least I guess she was thinking. And Denise, I don't think D would use the words wonderful, praying and father all in the same sentence right now. Maybe stubborn, opinionated and intolerant though. But I am seeking God's will in this more than I have most things in my life, so I guess that's a good thing. CW | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 200 Registered: 7-2005  |
Jeremy, You are right, quite creepy. And what makes it more crepy is the fact that even those adventists who found the gospel, aka evangelical adventists, have many problems in rejecting Ellen White. Even Walter Martin wrote in his book "Kingdom of the Cults" that Ellen White even if she maked false prophecies, is not a false prophet, because she believed in the divinity of Christ. Well, I know only two types of prophets: true and false. Christians or unchristians, sheeps or wolves in sheep's clothings. I cannot comprehend how Walter Martin can say that Ellen White was not a false prophet, but neither a true prophet. Even a cult expert as Walter Martin was willing to place Ellen White in a position which has not support in the Bible. Creepy indeed, like a spell. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1641 Registered: 3-2005 |
And Jackob, you have just hit on something that is a real struggle for me right now, and it is worse because I knew Walter Martin personally, as well as being his physician at times, and he was my pastor, and that is the big question: How could a man with his well known credentials, one who read all of Mary Eddy's works, and has read all of Joseph Smith's works, and he read all of Ellen's main works. Why could he not bring himself to call her a false prophet? He did say that she prophecied falsely, and was not a true prophet in the Biblical sense, but there was a lingering nagging question. This problem hit me anew, when I actually dusted off my copy of "Desire of Ages" and read the Easter chapters on Easter Saturday night, and I said on a post that night on this forum, that I had to believe she didn't write D of A. If any independent observer who did not know who Ellen White was read those same chapters, they would not say that a demon wrote those chapters. I don't believe she wrote D of A, and I will never accept Ellen as a true prophet, but, the difference between EGW and Mary Baker Eddy, was that either Ellen or her bookmakers knew how to copy evangelical authors such as Spurgeon, Edersheim etc. in a way that Joseph Smith did not. Also, I know people who got saved reading D of A, but maybe someone can tell me that someone got saved reading Mary Baker Eddy, so that I can put this issue to rest once for all. Don't anyone misinterpret the above. I only struggle with this because of how well I knew Walter Martin. This whole thing casts a shadow on his reputation possibley, and this is what at stake, but I recognize great men can be mistaken, and I have to believe that he was mistaken. But Biblically speaking, Ellen White could not have any pastoral authority at all, because women cannot be pastors or have authority over men. Also, there can be no new revelation once the canon is closed. Therefore Ellen is no true prophet of God. Also, as a physician, I have unanswered medical questions about her mental status that are very legitimate. I think there was a good chance that she was bi-polar, which produces hypergraphia, but this does not excuse her behavior. So in conclusion, if everything reported about Ellen is true, then, with the evidence provided she is a false prophet. Martin may not have had all the evidence, and this may have been stated to Robert Morey one week prior to his death. But, regardless, Ellen has no power over any of us who are formers anymore. Praise God for that! Stan | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 505 Registered: 7-2004  |
Walter Martin might have had some Scriptural basis for his conclusion based on I John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. This verse causes me to pause when making the conclusion that Ellen is a false prophet. There is no doubt that she fails other tests of a prophet. There is no doubt that her teachings about salvation are "another gospel" than the one taught by Paul. But there remains this clear statement of Scripture that we have to consider. In this single way Ellen is different that Mary Baker Eddy and Joseph Smith. I still think that false prophet is the best way to describe her based on all of the tests in Scripture. But this verse may be a legitimate basis for Walter Martin's conclusion. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 506 Registered: 7-2004 |
BTW, I am not defending Ellen but rather Walter Martin. If you want to disagree with his conclusions, I would suggest you address the reasoning he used and provide the reasons that you disagree with that reasoning. Unsupported attacks on such a respected individual do not enhance the credibility of formers. If we expect the evangelical community to take what we have to say seriously then we need to look at the credibility of our claims. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1242 Registered: 10-2004 |
Joseph Smith confessed that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. What difference are you speaking of, Rick? Jeremy | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 395 Registered: 10-2005 |
Ric - Those are very good points. I have pondered myself some thoughts about the Adventist Churches and the scripture contained in I John. It is good for us not to be brash and attack respected evangelical Christians. I've made the mistake of jumping to conclusions myself since a lot of emotion is tied to what I've been through with the Adventist church personally. Stan - I would like to mention that there are some Christians that do not agree with your statement about women having pastoral authority over men that view this forum. I understand you might see it as relevant, however, keep in mind that your view on women not having pastoral authority is consistant with Adventist biblical views and teachings and Ellen White was not considered a pastor, or pastorette. So you wouldn't have to argue that with the Adventists. I think that such a comment about Ellen White might be a bit out of context. I'm not saying this to open a discussion to hash it out on that topic. I just wanted to say that I think if you make such comments, it will turn many evangelical Christians off from the many other really great things that you have to say. It might be an issue of who sees you as credible in a different way than Ric has mentioned, but because of different views in the Evangelical community, I think I would feel better not offending anyone myself. Lynne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1243 Registered: 10-2004 |
I think we should speak the truth, even if it may "offend" some people. That is what Jesus did. I agree with Stan that the authority issue is relevant, as it has nothing to do with being a "pastor" per se, but having authority over men. Jeremy | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 673 Registered: 7-2004 |
DW, Along the lines that I shared with you earlier regarding God's ways not being our ways...have you considered the possiblities that God has placed you in J's life (and possibly even J's parents lives) "for such a time as this"? Now that you know the truths of SDA "truths", is there a way to use this knowledge to glorify God? I am not in your same situation but I ask myself these type of questions. Because of my own particular situation, I am unable to distance myself from SDAs. Even if I could, I don't think God calls me to distance myself from them. Phil. 2:1-5 comes to mind when I am tempted to throw in the towel in frustration. I completely understand your reluctance to "bond" with J. I also understand why you would consider J a sin (as you discussed with D). I will be the first to boldly step up to the plate and say that Adventism is a cult and I praise God for releasing me from the bondage I was in. I would love to have the opportunity to just be a "normal" Christian without any SDA baggage. I dream of all SDA influence disappearing from my life completely. I am sure this is how you feel about J...if only you could rewind back to the day D met J... BUT...I will NEVER be a "normal" Christian and you can't erase that fateful meeting. As Christians, we are all called by God to live differently - not differently weird but differently better. Jesus told us loving our neighbors as ourselves was one of the greatest commands. Notice this particular command was not first. He said loving God was THE greatest command. He knew the second command would be impossible without a love for Him first. So, He did not leave us alone to "love our enemies as ourselves." Praise God, we can do all things through Him! Please forgive me for being so bold but I have to tell you that I think Lisa's suggestion is one to consider (spending time with J). If D really does love J, do you really want to take a chance of making her choose between him or you? In light of our belief that God is soveriegn and in full control, I would like to encourage you to pray two things. First, that God would use you and the knowledge He has given you regarding Adventism in the best way for Him to be glorified. Second, that God would give you His love for J. Would you be in any harder place than you are now if you were to build a relationship with him? I know this is getting long, CW, but one of the reasons I feel compelled to share my thoughts with you is that 18 years ago I married my husband with bad feelings between family members. God has redeemed some of the brokenness caused from family members not willing to accept but there are relationships, that though healed, will never be what they could have been and I see some of the hurt and misunderstanding spread to the next generation. Please forgive me for sticking my nose in your business when you didn't even ask. I know I run the risk of being way off base and out of line especially since I do not know J or the whole situation. As I told you earlier today, God has a way to use this chapter in your life in a mighty way. A Chrisian's joy is determined by his relationship with Jesus and not by the circumstances he is in. God can use ANYTHING for His own glory. Your friend in His love, Denise | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 396 Registered: 10-2005 |
Here is another similarity to 1 John mentioned above by Ric - 1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. Jeremy - It is not dishonest to not use offensive language. And to me it was very much out of context and only Stans theological view, the view of some Christians. Not all Christians or denominations hold that view. I'm just saying that not all evangelical Christians share your views and I think you are losing credibility by not being open to other Christians with different views. You are offending and shutting them out because you know that you are RIGHT and you have the TRUTH. I'm wondering why it is so difficult to understand that there is enough room in the world for different denominations and theological views and that they can connect in Christ, in Grace alone. And all I am saying is that if you are offending a brother or sister in Christ, what progress do you think you are making? Who is going to listen to you? I mean you are not respecting them, so why should they have any respect for you? True Christianity is made up of different cultures, not cults. And pushing doctrine as the only truth, outside of grace alone, is cultish to me. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1642 Registered: 3-2005 |
Just to follow with ric's point. It is liberating for me not to have to be the judge of Ellen White's eternal destiny. If there was some medical or psychiatric reason that she acted as she did, and we also don't know what happened between her and the Lord before her death. Is it not enough just to say she has no authority or power over any of us, and trust the Bible alone for all our guidance. I am angry more at church officials who used her as they did. It is well known that certain psych conditions can cause some of the strange behaviors. We can make a biblical judgment on whether she was a true prophet. We know that her false vision of 1844 and the sanctuary, is the false basis for the SDA church. But her final destiny is in the Lord's hands, and, please, no one think I am the one that is crazy (smile), but if for some reason I do meet Ellen White in heaven, then I will still be very happy--the former things will be forgotten. CW, I think Denise makes some excellent points. You may be the one, who, as a result of coming on this forum, is called by God to influence this young man--you never know. Stan | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 697 Registered: 4-2000  |
Just a brief note about the late Dr. Walter Martin (Sept. 10, 1928-June 26, 1989). It is safe to say that Dr. Martin was still a novice cult-watcher when he initially started discussions with the SDA leadership in the early 1950s. He was still in his 20s. On the other hand, the SDA hierarchy consisted of seasoned, mature veterans (i.e., Reuben Figuhr, etc.). They easily handled him with an abundance of charm. Remember the back-slapping variety? The SDA leadership was sharp enough to realize that they had alot to gain with this inexperienced cult-watcher. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 507 Registered: 7-2004 |
Jeremy, From what I understand of Mormon teaching Jesus isn't God in the flesh but a god in the flesh, the brother of Satan. This to me is a clear denial of the eternal Divinity of Jesus. I can not find such a clear denial in the writings of Ellen. There are certainly references that make me uncomfortable, particularly given the knowledge of the arianism of some early SDA leaders. But there is not a smoking gun that clearly and unequivocably demonstrates that Ellen denies the eternal Divinity of Jesus. It is one thing to speak the truth with credible evidence and offend people. It is quite another to spout inflammatory language and then claim the example of Jesus to support your behavior. Would you care to deal accurately and objectively with evaluating Ellen relative to the text I posted from I John 4? I understand and share your passion for exposing the falsehoods of SDAism. But that requires accurately gathering and presenting the information in a credible fashion. If formers believe that so many cult-watchers, not just Walter Martin, have been fooled by those deviously clever SDAs then lay out the evidence clearly that they have been fooled. Gather the evidence and explain why their conclusions are incorrect. I would much rather present evidence that led someone independent to change their position and conclude that SDAism is a cult, than to attack the ability and accuracy of those same people because they dared come to a different conclusion. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1237 Registered: 7-2003  |
CW, the best teaching I have ever heard on the Covenants can be downloaded as mp3 files here: THE GOSPEL AND THE COVENANTS These studies were a real break through for me and helped bring me, my wife, and several friends out of Adventism. I think spending sometime with this study would be well worth any Christian's time because it really helps you see the beautiful arc and symmetry of the entire Bible. It will also equip you to converse in an effective biblical manner with your daughter and her boyfriend. God bless, Chris | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1244 Registered: 10-2004 |
I would like to stay out of the "cult" discussion. As for showing why SDA is a cult and why some cult experts think they aren't, other cult-watchers/experts have already done this. Rick, before I say any more about EGW and 1 John 4, I need to know what criteria you believe disqualifies a prophet based on that verse. You obviously believe that denying the eternal divinity of Jesus causes a person to fail the test of 1 John 4, even though the text says nothing about the eternal divinity of Jesus. (I'm not saying I disagree with you necessarily.) So, in your opinion, what other kinds of falsehoods about Jesus would cause someone to fail the test? Also, notice that the passage says that if someone "passes the test" then they have God's Spirit and if they fail then they have the spirit of the antichrist. Therefore, it looks to me like if EGW passes the test then she would be a true prophet. I just don't see any middle ground in that passage. What do you think? Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3932 Registered: 12-2003  |
Cw, I believe that if you could find a way to reassure D that you will not pull away from her if she marries an Adventistówhile making it clear that you will never endorse Adventism or her possible conversionóand somehow be cordial to J, you will be "fighting fire with fire." I roomed with a girl who was engaged to a guy who both fascinated and worried her. Her parents really did not want her to marry him, and her mom was really emotionally manipulative about it, even landing in the hospital with a severe attack of colitis. Because of her mother's open resistance, the girl spent all her energy resisting her mother (she admitted this to me years later) instead of dealing with the boyfriend. She married him, but it ended in divorce after he became physically abusive and emotionally unfaithful. Here's what I'm thinking: J's parents are being warm, accepting, loving, enfolding, and they're doing a mighty good job of making their religion look pretty good. It's possible that if you also reached out and enfolded them, D might be more able to be objective about J's parents and their religion. I endorse Chris's suggestion that you listen to the files linked above. If you ever have the opportunity to have discussions with J and even D, a knowledge of the covenants is THE KEY to answering Adventism. Without an understanding of the New Covenant, you end up at dead ends, shaking your head in confusion. Adventism is a very clever deception; you have to understand their reasoning and understand the actual Biblical ways to answer them. Adventists will resist new covenant arguments, but they are unsettling to an Adventist and ultimately impossible for them to refute. If the SDA is adamant, you'll stalemate; but if you can actually explain FROM THE BIBLE how their understanding is not valid on this side of the cross, you may be able to make them think. Just my thoughts from the observation deck! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1245 Registered: 10-2004 |
Here is what Walter Martin told Adventist Currents in the July, 1983 issue, recounting his discussion with SDA leaders:
Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1643 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Jeremy--that is a good relevant quote to the discussion. Dennis, I am just a little disappointed in what you seem to be implying about Walter Martin. So, now it looks like we cast aspersions on the messenger. That simply won't fly, and lacks credibility from all angles. Dennis, the reputation of Donald Gray Barnhouse and "Eternity" magazine was at stake. Barnhouse wanted no part of this argument. There is a book written on Barnhouse's life, in which he recounts this whole situation with Adventism. There is an account where he and his wife had this conversation where they were very concerned about what Walter was doing, and they were remarking to each other that they were sure Adventism was just another cult. Well, then Donald Gray Barnhouse met with Figuhr, Anderson, and Froom. He was convinced beyond doubt that these men were true Christians. He went home to his wife, and said I was wrong, these people have strange doctrines, but they are Christians. Barnhouse did say that the sanctuary doctrine was the most nonsensical exegesis he had ever seen, but he did not see how that doctrine by itself was damning enough to keep from extending Christian Fellowship to Adventists. I agree Dennis, that Martin was a young man at the time, but Barnhouse was the pastor of the great Tenth Presbyterian church in philadelphia, and was known to be one of the greatest expository preachers of all time. His Romans series is a classic, and can still be listened to today online. Martin's research on Adventism never ended until he went to be with the Lord June 26, 1989. On about May 26, 1989, one month before his untimely death, he was still appealing to Adventists, and he was even allowed to speak in an Adventist church uncensored. I spoke with him on SDA issues ongoing for five years. I tried unsuccessfully to get him to change his mind. He would listen to my medical advice, but also listened politely to my concerns about Adventism (smiley), but he would have the last word on that topic (smiley). All I can say, is that Martin's research has stood the test of time. Hoekema agreed with Martin's assessment of the fact that SDAs were orthodox on the Trinity and the Deity of Christ, but had grave concerns about their eschatology, and on that basis called SDA a cult. Kenneth Samples, a thorough researcher, who worked with Martin for many years upheld Martin's conclusions after an exhaustive research study. Samples wrote the forward to Dale Ratzlaff's book, "Cultic Doctrine", and still held to his findings. Hank Hanegraff also at first thought Martin was wrong, and was very anti-sda when he first started. But, he came to the same conclusions that Martin and Samples did. Ruth Tucker, in her book "another gospel" acknowledged the diversity in Adventism. Historic SDA gets the cult label whereas evangelical SDA still avoids it. Stan |
