| Author | Message | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 499 Registered: 8-2004  |
"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free." Galatians 5:1 A spiritually minded man will never come to you with the demand - "Believe this and that;" but with the demand that you square your life with the standards of Jesus. We are not asked to believe the Bible, but to believe the One Whom the Bible reveals (cf. John 5:39-40). We are called to present liberty of conscience, not liberty of view. If we are free with the liberty of Christ, others will be brought into that same liberty - the liberty of realizing the dominance of Jesus Christ. Always keep your life measured by the standards of Jesus. Bow your neck to His yoke alone, and to no other yoke whatever; and be careful to see that you never bind a yoke on others that is not placed by Jesus Christ. It takes God a long time to get us out of the way of thinking that unless everyone sees as we do, they must be wrong. That is never God's view. There is only one liberty, the liberty of Jesus at work in our conscience enabling us to do what is right. Don't get impatient, remember how God dealt with you - with patience and with gentleness; but never water down the truth of God. Let it have its way and never apologize for it. Jesus said, "Go and make disciples," not "make converts to your opinions." "My Utmost for His Highest" by Oswald Chambers As we discuss what we believe and why, who believes similarly and who differently, as we agree and disagree, let us always be mindful to do as the verse above states: ""Stand fast . . . in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free." May we each abide in Him and He in us, for when "the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed"! Blessings, Mary | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 81 Registered: 11-2005 |
Thanks Mary for sharing that excerpt. It's a great reminder for us... There is so much wisdom in that little book  . Grace | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 497 Registered: 1-2003  |
Thank you very much for your post, "Don't get impatient, remember how God dealt with you - with patience and with gentleness; but never water down the truth of God." I agree completely and as it says we are to make disciples and not converts. Making disciples for me means to come up along side and nuture and mentor another person. We do that in relationship with another person not as an adversary or standing against someone else. My prayer is that God will be revealed in all our actions and words with those we meet. In Christ, Richard PS: Grace thanks for your email, I'll be in contact. rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3907 Registered: 12-2003  |
Mary, thank you so much for that wonderful quote. I love the point that we are to uplift Christ and point people to Him as opposed to teaching theology, so to speak. What a great point! Teaching Christ does involve addressing theological issues. I couldn't really grasp my freedom in Jesus until I'd deeply dealt with the Sabbath and the New Covenant, for example, but my point was to understand Jesus' role and centrality, not to understand the law's role as the primary focus. Such a good quote, Mary. Thank you! Colleen | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 59 Registered: 2-2006 |
I wonder what these bible verses means for you: 17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. Romans 16:17-18 (New International Version) 9He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. 10For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. 11They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teachóand that for the sake of dishonest gain. 12Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons." 13This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth. 15To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good. Tito 1:9-16 (New International Version) 1 The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: 2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly,[a] not for dishonest gain but eagerly; 3 nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; 4 and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away. Submit to God, Resist the Devil 5 Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for ì God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.î[b] 6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, 7 casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you. 1 Peter 5:1-6 (New King James Version) 7Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. 8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Hebrews 13:7-8 (New International Version) | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 507 Registered: 8-2004 |
These are excellent verses Rafael, reminding us of the importance of the church community, of respect for those with authority, of proper humility, etc. I especially appreciate the truth that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever (which brings me joy and security in Him since, as I quoted before, when "the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed"). Therefore when people bring in 'truths' that do not harmonize with Scripture and with the truth 'once delivered to the saints', we are strengthened to resist them. I'm curious what point you were getting at by posting them though. Care to explain? You may be understanding something from these verses that I am not seeing. Blessings, Mary | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 60 Registered: 2-2006 |
Mary, my point is that in order to undestand the bible we must follow the teachings of the universal church. That means that we must look back to our christian heritage. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 509 Registered: 8-2004 |
Was this a general statement, or in reference to something you disgreed with on this thread? Blessings, Mary | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 88 Registered: 1-2004  |
I see it partly as an issue of context. Context in the sense of us needing to be part of the actual church to which those scriptures are addressed. The Body of Christ was something concrete, defineable and visible, back then, and in that context, these scriptures mean certain things which they cannot really mean if you only believe in an "invisible church". In New Testament times, if you started teaching a heresy, you were put out from the Body of Christ. Literally! And people could see it. With the "invisible church" concept, a person can start teaching what his current pastor thinks is a heresy, and rather than being separated from the "invisible" Body of Christ, this person can go down the street and either find or start another church that says it is part of the "invisible church" but agrees with his new teaching. In other words, there is no such thing as church authority outside of the actual New Testament church. And I personally believe that this actual New Testament church is still present on earth. Today we can choose between being our own authority in discerning truth, or finding and joining the church described in these verses Rafael gave, which does have authority in doctrine. Consider the humility it takes to yield to a greater authority than your individual self. Who of us is prepared to go to just any church and give up our personal ideas of right and wrong? If a church is worthy of the kind of submission described in these verses, it should be able to demonstrate it's sameness with the church Jesus started. And we aren't talking about simply church authority, here... think of what it means to really actually be part of the Body of Christ. That sounds like a very safe condition to be in, to me! Jesus takes great care of his church, in spite of the fact it's filled with recovering sinners! Jeremiah | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3923 Registered: 12-2003 |
The texts quoted above were addressed to different local church bodies, not to a single group of people known to each other. The church in Rome was a different group and included Gentiles. These people did not necessarily know or ever meet the people to whom the other texts were addressed. Titus was a fellow worker with Paul and a Gentile; Peter wrote his epistles to believers, Jewish and Gentile, who were scattered throughout Asia Minor. Hebrews was written to Jewish Christians who were well-versed in the OT and might even have been priests before their conversions. Acts 6:7 refers to large numbers of priests (who would have been intimately versed in the old covenant rituals) who became Christians. The point is that the quotations above were not addressed to the same groups of peopleóit was not a single body of believers. Even though the church was smaller and the apostles knew many of them, it was not a completely homogenous group to which each letter was addressed. The problems at Corinth were not present in Ephesus or Thessalonica, for example. Paul wrote Romans before visiting the church there. The church is His bodyóall those, Jew and Gentile, who have been reconiled to God by the cross of Christ. This bodyówherever the people areóis the church, just as it was when Paul and Peter and the author of Hebrews wrote their epistles. The church "Jesus started" is what Hebrews calls "the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven" (Heb 12:23). All believers are members of this church. The actual New Testament church is still present on earth, but nowhere is there a suggestion in the Bible that it is limited to a certain denomination or physical organization. The fact that an organization self-proclaims to be the successor to the apostles and to carry on their teaching in the most authentic manner does not make it necessarily so. Many churches self-proclaim exclusive rights and authority, but their proclamations do not make them right. If the Bible is not the ground of truth for all believers, if human tradition must be added in, then we are not depending on the power and sovereign faithfulness of the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth and to guard the faith and practice of Christ-followers. The Bible is the living word because its Author teaches us with His Spirit as Jesus promised when we read His word. We are not our own authority; we are submitted to being taught by the Holy Spirit, and His teaching reveals Jesus and salvation and how we walk in the Spirit. Colleen | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 61 Registered: 2-2006 |
Mary, let me give you an example: Seventh Day Aventists insist in the saturday sabbath. I ask you, do they have the freedom to do that? Can sombody here say that we must tolerate Seventh Day Aventists because we are free in Christ? Can we choose the day in which we must to assamble as church? Read what is the answer of the church to those that insist in the saturday sabbath. St. Ignatius (Ep. ad Magnes. ix) speaks of Christians as "no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also Our Life rose again". In the Epistle of Barnabas (xv) we read: "Wherefore, also, we keep the eight day (i. e. the first of the week) with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead". Canon 29. Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ. Synod of Laodicea (4th Century) So I will not tolerate Seventh Day Aventists, I rather will rebuke them, because they ®are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.® | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 89 Registered: 1-2004 |
Of course just because a church proclaims that it has true succession from the Apostles and has kept the true worship and doctrines doesn't make it correct. I have no argument here. However, there are reasons I believe there is a church which does in fact fulfil these claims. From the Bible, one reason is the promise Jesus made that the gates of hades would not prevail against his church. While you could try to interpret this as applying only to an invisible church, after reading the writings of the early Christians, starting right around the time the Bible was finished being written, the unmistakeable conclusion I have come to is that what these early Christians taught and believed is still taught and believed today by a church which claims succession from the Apostles. But let's look at your concept of there not being a concrete "Body of Christ" since the texts Rafael quoted are written to different churches in different areas. First off, if what was written to the Hebrews did not apply to the Ephesians or Corinthians, then why should it apply to us today? I'm not sure if that's a path you really want to go down... Secondly, there is a definite concept of there being "one body" in the NT. "Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread." Also from the Didache, written very early around the time the NT was written; "Chapter 9. The Eucharist. Now concerning the Eucharist, give thanks this way. First, concerning the cup: We thank thee, our Father, for the holy vine of David Thy servant, which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever.. And concerning the broken bread: We thank Thee, our Father, for the life and knowledge which You madest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever. Even as this broken bread was scattered over the hills, and was gathered together and became one, so let Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom; for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever.. But let no one eat or drink of your Eucharist, unless they have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this also the Lord has said, "Give not that which is holy to the dogs." Chapter 10. Prayer after Communion. But after you are filled, give thanks this way: We thank Thee, holy Father, for Thy holy name which You didst cause to tabernacle in our hearts, and for the knowledge and faith and immortality, which You modest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant; to Thee be the glory for ever. Thou, Master almighty, didst create all things for Thy name's sake; You gavest food and drink to men for enjoyment, that they might give thanks to Thee; but to us You didst freely give spiritual food and drink and life eternal through Thy Servant. Before all things we thank Thee that You are mighty; to Thee be the glory for ever. Remember, Lord, Thy Church, to deliver it from all evil and to make it perfect in Thy love, and gather it from the four winds, sanctified for Thy kingdom which Thou have prepared for it; for Thine is the power and the glory for ever. Let grace come, and let this world pass away. Hosanna to the God (Son) of David! If any one is holy, let him come; if any one is not so, let him repent. Maranatha. Amen. But permit the prophets to make Thanksgiving as much as they desire." It sure looks to me like there were restrictions on who can and cannot be part of the Body of Christ. In the Didache, being baptised is mentioned. It's not a stretch at all in my mind to say that when church leaders and submission to church leaders is mentioned in one part of the NT church, it applies to the church as a whole. Especially since "elders" were meant to be appointed by the Apostles or those appointed by the Apostles in "every city". "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you," We see Titus acting not on his own ideas but as directed by Paul, here. I know I've posted this quote from Clement before, but it is so applicable to this conversation since it was written about 95 AD and talks about this very subject of church leaders... see; "42. The Apostles received the Gospel for us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ was sent forth from God. So then Christ is from God, and the Apostles are from Christ. Both therefore came of the will of God in the appointed order. Having therefore received a charge, and having been fully assured through the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and confirmed in the word of God with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth with the glad tidings that the kingdom of God should come. So preaching everywhere in country and town, they appointed their first-fruits, when they had proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons unto them that should believe. And this they did in no new fashion; for indeed it had been written concerning bishops and deacons from very ancient times; for thus saith the scripture in a certain place, I will appoint their bishops in righteousness and their deacons in faith. and... 44. And our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife over the name of the bishop's office. For this cause therefore, having received complete foreknowledge, they appointed the aforesaid persons, and afterwards they provided a continuance, that if these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed to their ministration. Those therefore who were appointed by them, or afterward by other men of repute with the consent of the whole Church, and have ministered unblameably to the flock of Christ in lowliness of mind, peacefully and with all modesty, and for long time have borne a good report with allóthese men we consider to be unjustly thrust out from their ministration. For it will be no light sin for us, if we thrust out those who have offered the gifts of the bishop's office unblameably and holily. Blessed are those presbyters who have gone before, seeing that their departure was fruitful and ripe: for they have no fear lest any one should remove them from their appointed place. For we see that ye have displaced certain persons, though they were living honourably, from the ministration which they had respected blamelessly." History seems to be very clear about the structure in the NT church. Jeremiah | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 90 Registered: 1-2004 |
Rafael, You are correct that we can say SDA's are on the outside of the Body of Christ. As you learn more about the teaching of the historic church, you will find that just because someone is not in the Body of Christ does not mean that person will not find salvation. We pray for the mercy of God on everyone, whether inside or outside the church. We let God judge. It's one thing to know Christ and the pure truth and leave, but another thing to be born into error. We can't tolerate SDA's teaching error but at the same time we can't judge them. It's certainly right to warn against false teaching! In early Christian history, the Jews were seen to have rejected Christ. Therefore they merited the title of "hypocrite" etc. However, Christians did want to convert Jews to Christ! The more severe rebukes were for those who decided to judaize after knowing the truth. Jeremiah | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3928 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremiah, I did not intend to imply the epistles were not written for us. Rather, that idea was what I was trying to say: Christ-followers for all time in all places are to benefit from the epistles, just as they were often circular letters at the time they were written, and house churches separated by many miles were able to share them among themselves. I guess I don't see a body that is any more specific then than now. I also agree that there are clear directives explaining who is part of Christ's body. I see those directives in the New Testament, and I see a great many people in a great many different "denominations" who qualify. Rafael, I agree that the Adventist church teaches heresy. The Sabbath heresy, though, is not affirmed by the quotes you gave above. Rather, Roman 14:is extremely clear that some people regard a day as sacred to the Lord, others regard every day alike. We are not to judge one another on the basis of a sacred day. Each person is to be convinced in his own mind. Jewish Christians were allowed to worship on Saturdayóeven if they were classified as having "weak faith"! Rather, the argument against Adventists' Sabbath observance is found in the explanations of Galatians and Hebrews which detail how Jesus is the fulfilment of the shadows of the law, and to claim one day is "sacred" because of the old covenant law is an obsolete argument now that Christ has come. Adventists place the Sabbath where Christ and the Seal of the Holy Spirit should rightfully be. Colleen | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 91 Registered: 1-2004 |
Yes, the Christians did meet in house churches. Initially, they met in the synagogue on Sabbath and in houses after that, for the Lord's Supper. Then they were kicked out of the synagogues, and the two services got combined into what you see today. First the reading scripture and preaching part, then the part where they chase everyone who isn't baptized out the doors and lock them before celebrating the Lord's Supper! Well actually they don't do that part anymore usually... but the words about it are still used in the liturgy! I wouldn't say that there was no real communication to house churches... especially from church headquarters... look here; 8:16 "But thanks be to God, who putteth the same earnest care for you into the heart of Titus. For he accepted indeed our exhortation; but being himself very earnest, he went forth unto you of his own accord. And we have sent together with him the brother whose praise in the gospel is spread through all the churches; and not only so, but who was also appointed by the churches to travel with us in the matter of this grace, which is ministered by us to the glory of the Lord, and to show our readiness: Avoiding this, that any man should blame us in the matter of this bounty which is ministered by us: for we take thought for things honorable, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men. and we have sent with them our brother, whom we have many times proved earnest in many things, but now much more earnest, by reason of the great confidence which he hath in you. Whether any inquire about Titus, he is my partner and my fellow-worker to you-ward, or our brethren, they are the messengers of the churches, they are the glory of Christ. Show ye therefore unto them in the face of the churches the proof of your love, and of our glorying on your behalf." And this; 3:1"Are we beginning again to commend ourselves? or need we, as do some, epistles of commendation to you or from you?" It still looks to me like some people in Jerusalem and/or Antioch were doing the organizing and sending messengers etc; Of course Paul was all over the map! 16:1 "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I gave order to the churches of Galatia, so also do ye. Upon the first day of the week let each one of you lay by him in store, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come. And when I arrive, whomsoever ye shall approve, them will I send with letters to carry your bounty unto Jerusalem: and if it be meet for me to go also, they shall go with me." 1:15 "But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother's womb, and called me through his grace, to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood: neither went I up to Jerusalem to them that were apostles before me: but I went away into Arabia; and again I returned unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and tarried with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother." 2:1 "Then after the space of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus also with me." Notice that it would have been considered "normal" for Paul to have gone up to Jerusalem and been sent out by the Apostles and Elders there; part of Paul's point in Galatians is that his gospel came directly from Jesus through revelation, and the church leaders of the day recognized it and gave their blessing. So we have a Jerusalem council, and we have things being organized and directed from Jerusalem. That looks an awful lot like what we see today... a sort of "centralized" church government. Though in 1054 it was a pentarchy but Rome split from Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem. The thing that ties Orthodoxy together now is common belief. There certainly isn't alot of organization! Rome has organization but I'm not so sure about common belief. And then there are those who didn't accept the council of Chalcedon in 451... it's mostly linguistic difficulties we think, since they ultimately seem to mean the same things. I love the liturgy of the Oriental Orthodox! In quite a number of places it's still done in Aramaic. Jeremiah | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 92 Registered: 1-2004 |
To complete a thought here, if the NT church had leadership and organization, and we are counseled to submit to those in that position, then if we want to obey that command today we must find the NT church which has leadership and organization to submit to. As opposed to finding a church which simply WE like. This changes the standard of right and wrong to something other than our personal opinions. The nice thing about having a succession of bishops from the Apostles is it becomes easy to trace how the "traditions" from the Apostles came down through history. Just read the writings of any of these bishops at any point in history and what all bishops agree to or do not contradict is usually the tradition from the Apostles. Jeremiah | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 62 Registered: 2-2006 |
Jeremiah, when I said that I will rebuke sdas for their teachings, I do not meant that they can't find salvation but that they need to be rebuke ®so that they be sound in the faith®. I believe that the last word in matters of salvation is Christ¥s (including my on salvation). Mary, my intention with my first post was not contradict you, but to show that in order to understand and apply the teachings of the bible we need know all the context. When the new testament was written christianity was not divide as we see today, there was not baptits, adventists, evangelicals, new/old covenan theologie, jw, mormons (I include jw and mormons since they proffess to believe in Christ, so you can use Galatians 5:1 with them too), RCC, etc., the chistian church was one in every place. Then we can not use Galatians 5:1 today and says let every body have his/her own understanding of the bible and ®stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free." Colleen, the christian church do not disappered with the apostles¥s dead and then appear today, not the church have 2,000 years witnessing to this old and fallen world. | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 199 Registered: 7-2005  |
It is true that the church do not dissapeared and appeared today, only had gone underground. Like Luther said, the church was in Babylonian captivity. The church survived and the reformation was the starting moment of liberation from her captivity. | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 93 Registered: 1-2004 |
That the true church had disappeared or gone underground is the basis for Mormonism's claim to being the restoration. As well as Adventism's claim. And JW's. And especially the Church of Christ. Some Baptists have a different twist on it and say that the real Christians were always Baptists. Read the little book "Trail of Blood" for that view. http://www.baptistpage.org/Distinctives/Trail_of_Blood.html To do one's own study and try and locate the underground church would prove eye opening, I think. Especially if you used pre-reformation sources. I read one SDA book that said that the Nestorian Christians were the true church. Like the ones in China in 650 AD... but read this! They were Oriental Orthodox. http://www.lulu.com/content/83798 I think I might go so far as to say that the history of Christianity is one of the strongest evidences for Orthodoxy there is. People who try to prove otherwise frequently become Orthodox (or Catholic). Jeremiah | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1640 Registered: 3-2005 |
Amen Jackob to your last post. Praise God for men like John Calvin and Martin Luther who restored the true, authentic gospel of free grace that Jesus and the apostles also taught. Stan |
