| Author |
Message |
Justdodie
Registered user
Username: Justdodie
Post Number: 34
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 6:42 pm: |     |
Chris, I express my OPINION just as you do. All I am saying is what I think. What I feel. Just as you do. If you feel that the Bible is all that you say it is, then that is your OPINION, to which you are certainly entitled. I am not trying to convince anyone to give up anything they believe. I am not saying anyone is wrong. I am saying what I think. What I feel. WHAT I FEEL. If that makes me arrogant and dogmatic in your eyes, then so be it. I'm certainly no more so than you are. I am simply stating what seems to make sense to me. Period. As I said, we are all different, and we all see the world differently. I'm sorry I don't experience it as you do. But that does not make either of us wrong. Just different.
And I'm certainly sorry I ever attempted to discuss my feelings on this forum!
JOYCE
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Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1245
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 7:14 pm: | |
Joyce, I think it is perfectly fine to discuss you feelings. I would never try to dissuade you from doing so. But feelings do not equal truth. Truth is true regardless of how a person feels about it. The reality is, one of us of necessity MUST be wrong. Jesus is either the only way to the Father or He is not. Both of us cannot be right, as nice as that might be. So in the end, it really doesn't matter what our opinions are. I am not saying that my *opinion* is better than your *opinion*. We both have a right to opinions. But at the end of the day, when two diametrically views of truth are advanced, there are only three options:
1. The first is true and the second is false.
2. The first is false and the second is true.
3. Both are false.
The only option that is not valid is that both of the diametrically opposing and contradictory views are correct. That is not rationale.
So the question is not what's you're opinion, but what is really true.
Finally, my frank statements in my last post were made for a reason and that reason most certainly wasn't to hurt your feelings. I was making a crucial point that is often over looked. I have often noticed that those who call for tolerance and open-mindedness are often the most intolerant of views that say there is real objective truth and it can be found in the person of Jesus Christ. It is not truly open minded to say that all views are equally true except the one that Jesus Himself expressed when He said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."
In love,
Chris |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 101
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 9:53 pm: | |
Chris,
I noticed your comment on another thread that "the reputation of Jesus is at stake". This for some reason brought to mind a scene where people said "if thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross". As if to say let Jesus defend Himself, if He is really THE TRUTH.
Maybe it's not so much a matter of whether Jesus is really the truth as whether us humans are blind to spiritual reality.
In the Bible there were cases where people with perfectly good physical eyes could not see spiritually. And there was the case of blindness and sight here;
2 Kings 6:15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do? And he answered, Fear not: for they that [be] with us [are] more than they that [be] with them. And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain [was] full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha. And Elisha said unto them, This [is] not the way, neither [is] this the city: follow me, and I will bring you to the man whom ye seek. But he led them to Samaria. And it came to pass, when they were come into Samaria, that Elisha said, LORD, open the eyes of these [men], that they may see. And the LORD opened their eyes, and they saw; and, behold, [they were] in the midst of Samaria. And the king of Israel said unto Elisha, when he saw them, My father, shall I smite [them]? shall I smite [them]?
Sounds like we need some spiritual fathers today who have the eyes of Elisha.
Spiritual reality existed, but only the man of God could see it.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Jeremiah
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Cathy2
Registered user
Username: Cathy2
Post Number: 133
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 10:19 pm: | |
How do we 'know'?
How do we know love is real, when we feel it for someone we are deeply soul, mind, spirit and body Bonded with?
Does this love of mine depend on my intellect or logic or 'proof'?
No, it depends on a real, tangible
Person, Jesus Christ, in the here and now. In Him. The more I dwell with him, HIM, the more I 'know'.
Can I prove this, no. I can only love and grace others, as he did and does for me.
Not learning
about him, but being with, in him.
We just know; and dwell with our loved one, enjoy them, share with them, Being a part of them; within union with them...and more.
We know subjectively because it is a connection with Another. It cannot be proven tangibly expect in word and action. The over-flooding of it all-Him all-- is bigger than I am; flowing not just for myself, but to others, in spite of myself.
I 'know' only because of the intense, exquisite flow of love Himself, which became within me a few times throughout my life; and which kept me seeking the reality of this God-Person, whom transcended me, yet was in me.
I choose to believe, at times, becasue ,my mind/logic and feelings do not always match my soul; but that former and now 'Knowing', contact, connection, transformation, never left me.
No set of doctrines gave me this, not Luther, not Calvin, not any human man or woman; only the real, living Person of Christ. Unforgettable. Unchangeable, once I knew it--Him, Himself.
(and I am not speaking of a charisamtic, experiential/emotionalism-dependant experience; it is much, much different and soul-deep that that. I can compare both.)
Just couldn't help, but share of my 'knowing'.
Joyce, I truly and really appreciate your questions and comments. I think they needed to be asked. And some things pointed out. (also Richard and Denise, what you have pointed out, too) I, too, Joyce, felt as you did, about my own arrogance. Please, all, forgive me.
Like Denise, I have thought of thehealing blessing and helpfulness of having a seperate forum on this one between intellectual, theological discussions or support. Like Denise and Richard, I noticed how persons got lost in the shuffle in 'debates'. (I was in prayer with you Richard that weekend, even though I didn not post)
Like Doc (Adrian said), if correct theology (a set of beliefs, yet by whose interpretation?) could save us, that is Gnosticsim.
Christ, a Person-God saves and heals us and grows us up in Him.
I have come, recently, to the realization that I know not all I thought I did. I can no longer post the dogmatic things I did 3 months ago.
I have re-found the right now reality of my Alive Lord.
Christ rescued me; all of us-- in spite of how smart we humans think we are~
Cathy |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3943
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 12:20 am: | |
Joyce, I just finished editing an article for the next issue of Proclamation. It is by Verle Streifling, and it is exploring the question of Biblical inerrancy. He makes a point I have never heard nor thought of before.
He says, "Evangelicals presuppose these Bible claims [self-claims] of inerrancy are true. This objective presupposition stands in a court of law: the witness is not assumed to perjure himself until he can prove his testimony true. Liberal critics brng subjective presuppositions to the Bible. they argue that because God used human writers, the Bible can't be inerrant, and thus its claim of inerrancy must be proven true from textual and outside historic sources."
I had never thought of examining the Bible's claims as if it were a defendant in a court case before. I certainly was not trained to look at the Bible this objectively.
Ultimately, the "proof" for the Bible, besides the fact that its criticism can be explained by scholars, is the effect it has on lives that submit themselves to it. One can't really know whether or not the Bible is reliable unless we risk allowing the true Jesus to reveal Himself to us and to teach us through His word.
Christianity is the only religion that offers eternal security as a completely free gift to us. It is the only one which promises a new heart and a renewed mind. It is the only one that promises an eternal Mediator between us and Godóand, mysteriously, it is the only one in which our Mediator is also God and takes the initiative to search for and to save us. Jesus completely takes on Himself the respoinsibility for our eternal security, forgiveness, and freedom.
I'm personally glad, Joyce, that you're here, and I hope you'll stick with us and risk discussing these things with us. And I'll be up frontóI am praying that the Lord Jesus will reveal Himself to you in an unmistakable way and that you will find the truth about who He really is in all His transforming reality.
Colleen |
Rafael_r
Registered user
Username: Rafael_r
Post Number: 64
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 6:17 am: | |
Joyce, I belive in the bible and christianity (as the only way), because the God that is revealed in the bible and christianity one day revealed Himself to my me in extraordinary, supernatural and experimental way.
The first thing that the God of the bible did with me was to show me that i was a greate siner, that an slave of sin, that i was in jail and needed to be set free. Then after those days of deep conviction and despair, in a monday of 1988, i was led Holy Spirit (even the Holy Spirit that is revealed in the Bible) to see in Christ (the Christ of the bible) the answer to my despairing state. I remember that i kneeled down and the only thing that i said was ®Jesus be my savior® (or at least was my intention to say that), because in that moment i was feeled with great peace and joy as i never had experimented until that moment. Text of bible came to my mind and heart in a powerfull and experimental way. From that day i do not want any thing else just Christ and his kindom. But i'm not the only person with that experince, millions of people in the past and in the present knows by their own experience the reality of this things.
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"[b]ó 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[c] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?"[d] But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 (New International Version)
3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:3-10 (New International Version)
Rafael
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Sabra
Registered user
Username: Sabra
Post Number: 406
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 10:39 am: | |
Can I say something really controversial?
I think faith is what saved in the OT and faith is what saves in the NT, whether or not you have your doctrine correct. |
Rafael_r
Registered user
Username: Rafael_r
Post Number: 65
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 11:14 am: | |
Sabra, Yuo said well ®I Think®, Because the bible says
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe thatóand shudder.
20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
James 2:14-25 (New International Version)
1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourageówith great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that dayóand not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
2 Timothy 4:1-7 (New International Version)
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Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 451
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 11:15 am: | |
Absolutely faith is what saves, whether pre-cross or post-cross. And I also strongly believe that correct doctrine has nothing do with salvation, such as we won't have to pass a theology exam to be admitted to heaven. Correct doctrine can be helpful in realizing our freedom in Jesus and/or our role as Christians.
However, faith in Jesus is the only faith that saves, per Romans 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;"
I love that this verse is posted on our church's screen every Sunday during corporate confession. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3947
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 11:25 am: | |
Raven, you said that so well. I completely agree.
Colleen |
Rafael_r
Registered user
Username: Rafael_r
Post Number: 66
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 12:13 pm: | |
If faith is the only necessary thing, why Paul lose his time writing to Timothy about false doctrine and sound doctrine?
1 Timothy 4
Instructions to Timothy
1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
6If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.
9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
11Command and teach these things. 12Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity. 13Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching. 14Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.
15Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. 16Watch your LIFE and DOCTRINE closely. Persevere in them, because if YOU DO, you will SAVE both YOURSELF and your HEARERS.
3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
6But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
Paul's Charge to Timothy
11But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15which God will bring about in his own timeóGod, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
17Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.
20Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith.
Grace be with you.
1 Timothy 6:11-20 (New International Version)
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Justdodie
Registered user
Username: Justdodie
Post Number: 35
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 3:11 pm: | |
Well, folks, this has certainly been an exhausting thread, now hasn't it?! And I'm not sure really what I learned by asking my "hard question" at the beginning of this thread--other than that I really am tougher-- and braver--than I ever thought I was. I mean, I survived the onslaught---and here I am back for more!
But seriously, isn't it interesting how emotional people can get when it comes to the subject of religion or spiritual things? And, yes, I include myself in that as well. But arguement and debate is really, REALLY not why I joined this forum. I joined it as some of you have mentioned, for support and encouragement, and to share stories with people who have been through a shared experience--an experience, I might add, that no one in the "real" world can ever understand, no matter how hard they try. Of course, we all have our unique feelings and experiences. But still, I would venture out on a limb and say that 100% of the people on this forum have experienced pain through their time of living the SDA life and/or when leaving it. That, to me, is what we all have in common here. So that is what I was hoping for--support, understanding, commiseration, maybe to be able to share a chuckle and poke a little harmless fun at our uptight SDA friends once in a while, to let off a little steam. I certainly didn't want to get into a doctrinal debate.
Chris, I'm sorry if you felt like I was attacking your beliefs. I tried my best to make it clear that what I was talking about was my own feelings and thoughts, and those feelings, of course, are no reflection on you or anyone. But the tension that resulted did remind me an awful lot of the 'good ol' days' of being an SDA, or the time I tried (with disastrous results) to have an honest heart-to-heart talk about religion with my ever-so-SDA father. I went home and cried for two hours after that one. Let me tell you, I've learned a little since then! I no longer look outside myself for agreement, permission, or approval--not from my father, or anyone else. He is happy as an SDA. So I'm happy for him. Chris, if you are happy with where you are in your spiritual life, good for you! So many people never find that. But I think that's what we are all looking for.
I'm finding a good deal to be happy about myself these days. For me that's what matters. Honestly, I think that a sense of peace and joy and just general love of life is a good indicator that we're on the right path. I may not yet be where I'm going, but life is a journey, after all. I know that we were all taught (as SDAs) to study and argue and bicker, until we either hammered out the final answers and everyone agreed (or we all just keeled over from sheer exhaustion!), but that sort of thing just doesn't satisfy me any more. Someone always ends up feeling hurt, and we still can't come to an agreement. I know we will all never agree. Why would we? Why should we? But if someone says "I have found peace and contentment and an experience of God like I've never felt before," shouldn't we all just be happy for that person? I like what Sabra said: "I think faith is what saved in the OT and faith is what saves in the NT, whether or not you have your doctrine correct." I know that as SDAs much of our identity was wrapped up in having all the correct facts, and the correct interpretations--let's face it: it was kinda cool being "God's chosen people." But that kind of attitude is just asking for trouble--whether here on the forum, or out in the world.
So, thanks, to everyone for your support and your agreement that we all need to feel safe enough to share our questions AND our doubts. And especially, thanks to you Colleen, for reminding of us of this, reminding us that we don't always know the whole story that may be motivating what people say, or how they seem to be coming across. I know that I'm a little more "far out" in my thinking than most of the people on here, and I've given more than a little thought to whether or not I really belong here. I didn't really come here for answers, so much as for support. I feel quite satisfied that I'm making good progress when it comes to searching for answers for myself, but once in a while it's nice to just talk to someone who understands where I came from.
So, have a great evening, everyone!
Joyce |
Sabra
Registered user
Username: Sabra
Post Number: 408
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 7:46 am: | |
Rafael,
Paul is not wasting time, He says if you CLAIM to have faith and have no works, you don't really have faith. Works are the result of faith, not the other way around. He also says if you think your works will save you you are wrong.
Tell me....Rahab...? Had faith to believe and helped hide the men...bible says she was saved.
Lot?? What works do you see him working? He was a wicked man according to our standards, we'd probably throw him out of the church, and put him in jail. Bible calls him righteous.
hmmm
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Rafael_r
Registered user
Username: Rafael_r
Post Number: 68
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 5:35 am: | |
"Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?...Mark 12:24 (English Standard Version)
7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)ó 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
2 Peter 2:7-9 (New International Version)
Sabra, please tell me what the next verses means for you:
8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearingóif they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
1 Timothy 2:8-15 (New International Version)
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Sabra
Registered user
Username: Sabra
Post Number: 410
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 6:05 am: | |
Rafael,
There was a day when I would spend (or Waste) time argueing with the Pharisees, but that day is long gone.
I hope you find truth.
Sabra |
Rafael_r
Registered user
Username: Rafael_r
Post Number: 69
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 7:47 am: | |
Sabra, That is not the answer to my question. |
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