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Lindylou
Registered user
Username: Lindylou
Post Number: 153
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 7:17 pm: |     |
I can't quite get my mind around these verses. Any thoughts?
"Jesus then left Galilee and went north to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Gentile woman who lived there came to him, pleading, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! For my daughter has a demon in her, and it is severely tormenting her."
But Jesus gave her no reply - not even a word. Then his disciples urged him to send her away. Tell her to leave, they said. She is bothering us with all her begging.
Then he said to the woman, "I was sent only to help the people of Israel - God's lost sheep - not the Gentiles."
But she came and worshiped him and pleaded again, "Lord, help me!"
"It isn't right to take food from the children and throw it to the dogs." he said.
"Yes, Lord. She replied. "But even dogs are permitted to eat crumbs that fall beneath their master's table."
"Woman, Jesus said to her, "your faith is great. Your request is granted." |
Dd
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Username: Dd
Post Number: 676
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 9:26 pm: | |
Hello Lindy,
Here is what my "The Bible Knowledge Commentary" says of these verses:
"To get away from the questionings of the religious leaders, Jesus withdrew from Israel and went north into the region of Tyre and Sidon, the Gentile coastal region of Phoenicia.
She pleaded with Him to have mercy on her demon-possessed daughter. She addressed Him as Lord, Son of David, a messianic title. But even that appeal could not help her, for the timing was not appropriate.
When Jesus failed to answer her and she persisted with her appeal, the disciples urged Jesus to send her away. They seemed to be asking, 'Lord, why don't You go ahead and help this woman? She isn't going to give up until You do.'
Jesus reminded them, 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel'. He had come to offer to His own people the kingdom promised through David centuries before. Thus it was inapproriate for Him to bring blessings on Gentiles before blessings fell on Israel.
But the woman wan not easily discouraged. She saw in Jesus the only chance for help for her child. On her knees she pleaded, "Lord, help me!'
Jesus' reply caused her to realize her position, for He said it would not be right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs. He was picturing a family gathered at mealtime around a table, eating food provided by the head of the household.
The Gentile woman saw herself in this picture. She was not a child in the family (of Israel) eligible for the choicest morsels of food. But she saw herself as a household dog (a Gentile; the Jews often called Gentiles "dogs") eligible to receive crumbs that might fall from the master's table.
She was not wanting to deprive Israel of God's blessings. She was simply asking to some of the blessing be extended to her in her need.
In light of such great faith, the kind of faith Jesus was looking for in Israel, He granted her request. Her daughter was healed that very hour. This Gentile woman's faith contrasted with Israel's leaders who were rejecting Jesus."
Pg. 55, 56
The application for me is that I do not want to ever throw away the food He has given me. Praise God! I have the greatest opportunity to sit at the feet of The Master! He will never turn me away!
Any other thoughts and applications from this passage? Great passage, Lindylou!
Denise |
Seekr777
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Username: Seekr777
Post Number: 512
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 10:33 pm: | |
Denise, thanks for posting the comentary. I was blessed.
Richard
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Raven
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Username: Raven
Post Number: 450
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 9:22 am: | |
Thanks for bringing that passage up, Lindylou. It is one that I've also had questions about, and I'm not sure there is a complete answer. Thought it might be interesting so see an additional commentary, this one from the Reformation Study Bible:
quote:Prior to the resurrection, the "dividing wall" (Eph 2:14) between Jew and Gentile still stood, and at this point Jesus' mission was to "Israel" as defined according to Old Testament ordinances. Jesus had earlier responded to Gentiles who were in Jewish territory, but to respond to Gentiles in Gentile territory could have resulted in a prolonged distraction from his primary purpose. Jesus replied to the woman's request only after clear evidence that she had no thought of any claim to the covenant mercies; rather, she hoped to benefit from the overflow of the blessings promised to Israel.
I know I've seen other cases where Jesus responded in what seems a more compassionate way to other Gentile requests, so this commentary seems to address that aspect in a satisfactory way. |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3941
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 12:37 pm: | |
I agree, Raven, and I also see how your commentary is related, Denise. When Jesus saw the woman's faithóthe faith Israel SHOULD have had given the great revelation and the promises God had given them of the coming redemptionóJesus responded to the Gentile woman as if she were Israel.
In the old covenant, Gentiles could become Israelites by being circumcised, adopting the Israelite's law, and honoring God. With this woman, Jesus demonstrated that the essence of being a "true Israelite" was faith, and even though the dividing wall was not yet broken down so the gospel could freely go to the Gentiles, when one demonstrated saving faithóthe mark of a true IsraeliteóJesus responded. He did the same thing with the centurion whose servant he healed.
She didn't see herself as equal to Israel at that point; she just had faith in Jesus as was not seeking "status" for herself.
Colleen |
Lindylou
Registered user
Username: Lindylou
Post Number: 154
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 1:00 pm: | |
Thank you very much for your insightful responses. Gives me food for thought. It seems to confirm something about God's timing. Everything has a season...... a time and a place. And the God who knows the beginning from end...... can be trusted to work all things out according to His good purpose - even if it doesn't seem logical or makes sense to us finite beings.
Happy day to all!  |
Hrobinsonw
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Username: Hrobinsonw
Post Number: 200
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 11:13 pm: | |
This is a conversation that Jesus had with the Caananite woman. It is powerful because it is the blueprint to all else that follows. Notice what is missing. This unclean woman, was not to even be associated with because she was unclean. Her faith in Christ was the only pre-requisite for the miracle at hand. Christ never forced her to vow to keep the Commandments before he performed this act. Her faith in him alone was the difference. This is how Genitles were given the Gospel. "Because Abraham had faith, he was credited righteousness.' |
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2544
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 4:37 pm: | |
Thanks for your comments Hrobinson. Have not heard from you in a long time. How is the wife and Baby?? I hope the in laws are not giving you to much trouble.
God is always awesome.
Diana |
Hoytster
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Username: Hoytster
Post Number: 127
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 5:54 pm: | |
I have trouble with the parable of the brides. Some brought what they thought was enough oil, some others brought extra. When those who had not brought extra ran out of oil, because the wedding party was late, they went out and were not allowed back in. Is that about it?
And this means?
My first thought is: How selfish of those who had extra but refused to share!
Second: Wait, this is oil for lamps, and light shares itself?!
Third: The wedding party was late. That's rude. The brides without extra planned on the wedding party starting on time. That doesn't sound like a character flaw to me; that sounds like people who show up on time, a mark of integrity -- so they expect others to do so also.
Fourth: They were excluded from the party, because they had the energy and initiative to go get more oil? That makes no sense to me.
Fifth: What behavior is being praised here? What are the virtues of the brides who brought extra? Anticipating unexpected need? Being selfish? Not leaving the party?
Granting it must be a metaphor (this is the exception to "I never meataphor I didn't like"), what is it supposed to represent? What is the Christian equivalent of bringing more oil than you should need, in case plans go awry? What is the Christian aspect of refusing to share the oil? Being shut out has the possible meaning of being refused entry to heaven -- but for what?
Whosoever believeth in me, shall have life everlasting -- as long as they brought plenty of oil.
Sorry, no compute.
To me, this parable says "If someone else is needed and you have extra, don't share! They are losers! Keep all you have for yourself, and you'll party on!"
But that doesn't seem right. ;)
Sixth: I would have volunteered to get the oil for all the others who were running short. "Yo, who's running short of oil? I'm going to run down to the market; anybody want me to pick up some for you?" And when I was shut out of the party, banging on the door -- there would have been several friends in side saying "Dude, he was doing us a favor, getting more oil for a bunch of us -- you gotta let him in!"
Maybe that part got left out of the translation. ;)
Looking forward to elucidation - Hoytster |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4002
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 11:13 pm: | |
Hoytster, this parable is a metaphor, as you suggested. It begins to make more sense when you compare it with the parable of the seeds in Matthew 13.
The ten virgins represent people all of whom profess belief in Christ. They are waiting for His returnóthe bridegroom. The bridegroom, however, did not come as soon as everyone expected, and they all stopped watching and waiting and spiritually fell asleep.
Interestingly, five of the virgins realized their lamps were going out, but they had nothing to replenish them. In other words, their spiritual life was waning.
When one compares this parable to the seeds parable in Matthew 13, you see that there were plants that grew up quickly when the seed was scattered on shallow ground. They looked healthy, but when the heat came, they withered and died because they had no roots. Others fell among thorns and thistles (representing the cares and financial concerns of life) and were choked to death.
These plants and the five foolish virgins are in the same category. They have heard the gospel and have even responded with some interest. But they have not committed themselves to live for Jesus. They are those people (whom we cannot always identify, but God can) who attend church, are active in activities, etc. But these people have not actually surrendered their lives and hearts to the Lord.
Judas is an example of those who appear to be believers; they participate in church and ministry and even do things in Jesus' name, as did Judas when he went out with the disciples. But when the rubber met the road, Judas was not loyal to Jesus; he was loyal to himself.
The plants that withered in the heat and choked among the thistles and thorns are these double-minded people. The foolish virgins are, also. They did not have the tranforming relationship with the indwelling Holy Spirit (the new birth) that would keep their spiritual fires lit and burning.
The reason the wise virgins would not give any oil to the foolish virgins is that one cannot share the Holy Spirit. We can encourage and bolster each other's courage and endurance, but we cannot give the other an infusion of the Holy Spirit. Our relationships with the Bridgroom are our personal experiences. Romans 8 describes how, when we have accepted Jesus, we are to learn to live by the Holy Spirit instead of by the flesh.
The foolish virgins did not bring extra oil becauseówell, because they didn't have any. People who intellectually respond to Jesus without submitting to His Lordship and committing to allowing Him to be Lord of all of them will not be able to meet the Bridegroom and be admitted to the wedding supper. Only those who accept Him fully and receive His Spirit in them as His guarantee of their eternal future will be spiritually alive and eager to meet the bridegroom.
No one will be able to share anything with the unready. Their unreadiness is between them and God, and none of us can fill another with spiritual life.
Praise God for being faithful and for taking responsibility for completing the work He begins in us. He Himself will bring us to saving faith and will keep us enduring and faithful unlike those who are without oil.
Colleen |
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