| Author | Message | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 399 Registered: 10-2005 |
Melissa - I ran across this a few months ago. An AOG church with a prophet. The AOG denonination doesn't teach this. Scroll down to the bottom of this web page on the following link and tell me if this makes all of AOG a cult. http://www.livingspringsag.org/pastoral_staff.html | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 701 Registered: 4-2000  |
Ric, Recently, I asked a well-known SDA apologist if the label "false gospel" is more charitable than the "cult" designation for Adventism. He quickly replied, "It is worse!" Apparently, they prefer the "saints" designation (smile). Dennis Fischer | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 518 Registered: 7-2004  |
I'm not suggesting the use based on what is a gentler and kinder statement, although depending on the situation a might opt for another gospel over false gospel. I am suggesting that distinction between true Gospel and another/false gospel is something that can be defended from God's Word. SDAs can be slippery in describing or defining what they mean be gospel but there is ample evidence to make this case firmly. False prophet isn't a popular phrase either. But once again we can compare the evidence against what God's Word says. I John 4 can be challenging to integrate into that definition, and may be the reason that some of the cult watchers have been willing to call her prophecy false without calling her a false prophet. Personally I think that is trying to draw the line too fine. But I have yet to see an SDA who defends Ellen based solely on I John 4, it would be interesting to see how they would approach that defense and what openings their logic for rejecting the OT requirements would be. Boldly proclaiming that we are more theologically astute and more objective than the many well-respected cult-watchers who do not apply the term cult to SDAism seems arrogant. I am happy to discuss the cultic doctrine and behaviors that I see within SDAism. And I would be delighted if that discussion led some independent parties to conclude that SDAism may in fact be a cult. But I also think that it would do us well to understand better why prominent individuals consider the errors of SDAism to be of a different nature or magnitude than those of JW's or LDS. | ||
| Packer_eric Registered user Username: Packer_eric Post Number: 36 Registered: 3-2004 |
Lynne, (and others) This is a very intriguing link/post... But I must correct you, Lynne. It was not Gilda Radnor on SNL who portrayed "the Church Lady"...she passed away in early 1980. Dana Carvey in the mid to late 80s was indeed the Church lady; raised a PK, Dana "rebelled" in some way by doing this skit which, I must say, even from a Christian's persepctive, is very funny and VERY true. Eric | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 450 Registered: 7-2000 |
Folks, what makes Adventism 'cultic' is not 'just' doctrine, nor a false prophet. It is one word FEAR. The SDA church, like the Mormon church, the JW's, the Branch Davidians, or Synanon all have a carefully crafted set of beliefs that makes one fearful. Fearful of association with others; fearful of questioning the beliefs of the group; and very fearful of leaving the group. Every cult has a doctrine that encourages it's members to withdraw from contact with anyone else who doesn't believe as they do. Some groups use force and isolated compounds (such as Waco to do this). The SDA's do it through cradle to grave Adventism. They do it through the 'Health Message'. They do it with the concept of 'Present Truth'. They do it by villanizing other Christians vis a vis the 'Sunday Law'. When one can meet former Adventists, some even twenty years gone, who still experinece the old fear of 'being lost', and have as a result a desire to return to a group because of that reason----you've got a cult. And I've met several people who match that description. Bill | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 206 Registered: 7-2005  |
The greatest FEAR is to contradict Ellen White. Because it's the fear of contradicting God, of becoming apostate. I want to post something from Ellen White
The issue it's clear: don't even dare to disbelieve the prophet, you will end in destruction. Any doubts are from Satan. This is the biggest fear, because it is like you have the courage to contradict God, if Ellen White is not a false, but a true prophet. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 402 Registered: 10-2005 |
Thanks Eric. I remember when Gilda Radnor passed away from Cancer. I did think it was Gilda Radnor that was the Church lady in the 70's though. Do you have any reruns of her from the 70's? Ric - Your point is very good. I know that when I shared my experience of Adventism with a Christian that has a theology degree I was very careful. I did not share anything about my experience without proof on paper. For instance, like showing them where the Adventist Church puts EGW as Authorative in the Fundamentals. And showing them the Remnant Church statement in the Fundamentals and showing EGW text explaining the Remnant and her Mark of the Beast text, etc. If my definition is consistant with what someone believes a cult is, I will just let them state that based on the facts I've presented. And anyone that understands religion well would come to that conclusion I believe even if it isn't like JW or Mormons so to speak. But I will not judge someone if they only want to call it fake or false or conterfeit. I also like to refer people to Mark Martins website - www.sdaoutreach.org - He is reputable and I'm very grateful for his ministry. It is why I'm here. I would also like to mention that I have heard, especially from Stan, that Historical Adventism is definately a cult. But one thing that I remember in the Adventist churches that I attended, they always had people in them that were historical Adventists. There are still many people like that in the Adventist churches today. As Colleen has said, the church really hasn't changed in certain ways. Some historical Adventists I remember were the most uptight and strictest parents. It always made me feel bad during services when I saw young children trying not to look at people or smile or even move a little in their seats out of fear of their parents and God. And there are many people in this forum who have experienced this as children. I very much have heard the same thing about Catholism. That it isn't like it used to be. They used to be so strict and some of the nuns were so mean. But keep in mind that the Catholic church is the richest church in the world. With their money, none of us here can sound credible calling them a cult even if there is truth in that. WE ARE POWERLESS OVER SPIRITUAL FORCES IN PLACE. It reminds me of Paul's vision. 2 Corinthians 12:7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. Lynne | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1646 Registered: 3-2005 |
One way to solve this entire problem is to say that one segment of Adventism, called historical Adventism is a cult. I have no problem with doing that. I do have a serious problem saying all SDA pastors preach a false gospel, because many of them are preaching the true gospel as defined by the standards of Christian orthodoxy, and not defined by former SDAs like myself. It is not the pure form of Reformed theology which I believe is the purest form of the gospel, but, nonetheless, what a lot of SDA preachers are preaching is not clearly the heresy of Galatianism. Jeremy, Did you say that Randy Roberts is preaching a false gospel as defined by Galatians 1:8,9? I am going to personally listen to the Galatians series that he did at the Loma Linda Univ church. If you can find, Jeremy, where Roberts clear statement says that we keep our salvation by keeping the Sabbath, or the Law, rather than preaching that obedience results from justification, then we can clearly state it. I would also like to get the opinion of a trained theologian, who is also trained in cult apologetics so we can get to the bottom of this. Because, since LLU is the largest church in SDA, and if a clear false gospel is being preached, then I will admit it if it can be proven. If you can't prove that Roberts is preaching a false gospel, then to label his teaching as anathema and leading people to hell is a very serious offense. But that is why I would like to see the opinion of a totally independent cult expert and trained theologian, which I admit I am not. It is important to be accurate, is all I am saying. It may be possible to get one of John MacArthur's associate pastors to evaluate the teaching in question, and give us an opinion based on the best cult apologetics science. Is there anyone who knows of a recognized cult expert who has a book currently in print, that labels SDA a full blown cult equal to JW etc? If there is not, then we are on very thin ice labeling the whole of SDA a cult. That is why I like the option of dividing SDA up, because it is clearly split, but, I suspect some would not be happy admitting that there are enough true Christians in SDA to avoid that label. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1257 Registered: 10-2004  |
Jackob, Yes, Ellen White was one of the best at being a cult leader. She sure knew how to deceive people and keep them under her control. No, it was not just the church leaders who manipulated Ellen. Ellen manipulated them, and everyone else under her power. She is the one who left a legacy of deception for the church leaders to follow. Rick, You wrote: "But I also think that it would do us well to understand better why prominent individuals consider the errors of SDAism to be of a different nature or magnitude than those of JW's or LDS." Yes, and Hank Hanegraaff says that the SDA church is not a cult because they teach salvation by grace through faith. But you are disagreeing with Hank's research when you say that the SDA church teaches another gospel. So are the experts wrong or not? And why do we not find out why highly respected scholars such as Dr. J. Vernon McGee, Dr. John Whitcomb, and others say that SDA is a cult? Why should Pastor Mark Martin's position be dismissed so easily? Stan, Yes, Dennis and I mentioned Randy Roberts on this thread here. And it's not just the "continuing" part of his gospel that is problematic. He did not even mention sin, or repentance, or trusting in the blood of Christ. That is not the gospel. He only talks vaguely about "beginning your spiritual life" and assumes everyone in his SDA audience has "begun." But yes, he also totally changes the text of Galatians 3 and basically teaches that we are not saved until we finish a life of living for God (obedience/works) "by faith"--traditional Adventism. Of course, he makes it all very confusing. But confusion is definitely not the true gospel. Jeremy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 702 Registered: 4-2000 |
The tenor of our times dictates that we should never accuse a church of malfeasance or of being a cult. For example, more and more people are accepting Mormonism as being authentically Christian. The Reformed Mormons found a new name for themselves; namely, The Community of Christ (sounds Christ-like). I well remember when local Christian bookstores sold Dudley Canright's books. However, today the major Evangelical publishers, like Zondervan, will no longer publish any book against another religious or sectarian group--so-called "pilgrim literature." This phenomenon clearly reflects the inclusiveness in the Protestant world today. People are willing to accept most anything, and they believe that most people are basically good anyway. It is my fervent prayer that, as former Adventists, we will not follow the trend toward inclusiveness that is so popular in our time. Admittedly, this general laxity in our society makes our mission much more difficult. And Satan is most delighted! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 208 Registered: 7-2005 |
I'm remembering an episode from the life of Jesus:
If a part of adventism is cultic and another part is not, we have a house divided. And this situation originated in 1957. How can the adventist house still stand? Is adventism really divided, some part against the gospel and some not? | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1647 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, The other day you said both J. Vernon Mcgee and DJ Kennedy said SDA was a cult. Do you have the reference for each one. Who is John Whitcomb? Also, Jeremy, if you are indeed correct about Robert's exegesis of Gal. 3 then I will stand corrected. But I guess the sermons are downloadable from the church web site, and I will listen (I don't look forward to it, and I would rather listen to RC Sproul), but I will check it out, and try to get an independent source to evaluate it. Dennis, Do you believe John MacArthur is an inclusivist after you listened to that tape on RCC that I sent you? The reason RCC is so much worse than evangelical SDA is the fact that to become a priest, you have to affirm the Council of Trent which declares that the gospel of justification by faith alone is anathema--that is Luther and Calvin's gospel. SDA pastors don't have to affirm the Council of Trent, and you have pastors like Smuts Van Rooyen, the pastor of Vallejo Drive church in Glendale clearly preaching the same message of justification that Ford preached. Do you want to anathematize Van Rooyen because he preaches in an SDA church on the Sabbath. Some on this forum have said that just preaching on the Sabbath makes it wrong. And of course, the reason I keep bringing up MacArthur is because of his respected spiritual authority in the conservative evangelical church at large, and the fact that he has checked out Adventism carefully himself, and agrees with the "dual Adventist" theory that I am suggesting. Somehow I don't think MacArthur believes in inclusiveness--just read the book "Ashamed of the Gospel" and you will see what I am talking about. Stan | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 703 Registered: 4-2000 |
Stan, A few months ago, I was talking with a mainline Protestant minister here in Lincoln, Nebraska. He indicated to me that he will accommodate any bereaved family by preaching about the deceased being in heaven or in the grave. How convenient! He is inclusive enough to carry out anyone's wishes. This is the rage of the time. Thank you for sending me the CD on Catholicism by John MacArthur. It is excellent. However, when one is correct on one topic, it doesn't make him right on everything. Although I greatly appreciate the ministry of John MacArthur, there are several theological matters that I strongly disagree with him on. As you are fully aware, Adventist apologists have the well-developed talent of appearing very Evangelical if it brings acceptance and respect to their cause. They employ the right words at the right time to sound very orthodox, but both the speaker and audience are usually well aware of the underlying message being solidly SDA. They will join local ministerial associations for the sole purpose of gaining respect from the so-called "false shepherds." By the way, does Smuts Van Rooyan denounce any SDA heresies from the pulpit? Does he consistently preach non-SDA sermons? Does his church website eliminate any mandated distinctives for his denomination? Does he tell the truth about Ellen White? Does he tell his members that there never was a monetary tithe in the first place? Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1258 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stan, Geoffrey Drew, in his interview with the St. Louis radio station last year, said that Dr. J. Vernon McGee and other radio teachers' teaching was so clear that it led him out of Adventism. One of the radio hosts asked Drew: "Do you remember what, in particular, it was that, like Dr. McGee said...was it about the Sabbath?" And Drew replied: "Not the Sabbath so much. Dr. McGee was very bold, and straight, he said Adventism was a cult, and I thought that was a bit strong. But the particular doctrine that really swung me around was the teaching on hell, and eternal punishment." You can listen to it yourself at the following site (the above dialogue starts at about the 1:31 mark in the audio file): http://www.sdaoutreach.org/Home/Audio/tabid/57/Default.aspx As for Dr. D. James Kennedy, when I said that the other day I had remembered him using the word "cult" in his endorsement of the video The Spirit Behind the Church, but he actually uses the word "cultic." But he highly endorses that video. You can read his comments here: http://www.ratzlaf.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1001736673 By the way, according the dictionary, the words cultic and cultish are simply adjectives of the word cult! Therefore, according to the dictionary, to call a church a "cultic church" or a "cultish church" is the same thing as calling them a cult! If someone means something different, then they should say "cult-like church." The other endorsement of the "Spirit" video on that above link, is the one that says that the SDA church is a cult. That one is by cult expert Gordon Richard Fisher of Personal Freedom Outreach (http://www.pfo.org/). According to their website, Fisher is "The senior researcher/writer for The Quarterly Journal." And he clearly calls the SDA church a cult in his endorsement at the above ratzlaf.com link. Dr. John Whitcomb classifies the SDA church as a cult (according to http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/sda/adventi.htm). Dr. Whitcomb is a highly respected Biblical scholar of the last half century. Here is his website: http://www.whitcombministries.org/ He co-authored the book The Genesis Flood with Dr. Henry M. Morris. Then there is cult expert Elmer Wiebe, excecutive director of CULTure Shock Solution Ministries. Although I have not read his book, Who is the Adventist Jesus?, and so I don't know if he calls them a cult in there, but he definitely seems to place them in the cult category. Take a look at his website: http://www.cultureshocksolution.org/ Wiebe is trained in theology, I can't remember the specifics, but I did read that he is getting a Ph.D. now. Wiebe is very strong, he says, "Ellen G White is the SDAís goddess and her writings interpret everything for the SDA church." (CLICK HERE) When I read Wiebe's stuff it sounds like I am reading my own strong statements!  Wiebe also endorses David Cloud's analysis of Walter Martin and has the BDM document on his website: CLICK HERE. Here is what part of that document says:
Also, Rick, Lynne, and others, look at Wiebe's webpage here: CLICK HERE There is no way Wiebe would say that EGW passes the test of 1 John 4! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 13, 2006) | ||
| Qweary Registered user Username: Qweary Post Number: 18 Registered: 3-2004 |
Dennis, Could you give me "chapter and verse" for your statement -- "..there never was a monetary tithe in the first place?" Am very interested in the basis of that statement as my husband tells me that very thing. He hasn't given me a real satisfactory answer. Please help me out in this! Colleen, please give him my e-mail address! Thanks, Qweary. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1259 Registered: 10-2004 |
Also, to add to my above post, Pastor Chuck Smith highly endorses Pastor Mark Martin's tape series on Adventism, called An Evangelical Adventist? - the Dark Side of Seventh-day Adventism, in which Pastor Mark frequently refers to the SDA church being a cult: http://www.sdaoutreach.org/Home/Materials/tabid/60/Default.aspx Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1648 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy, Again you have given a lot of material. As far as Geoff Drew goes, he is a close friend of John MacArthur and goes to his church, and gave a testimonial at our FAF reunion. He and his wife told me that John MacArthur was surprisingly silent about Adventism. I wonder what he knows about Adventism that gives him pause to just call it a false cult outright. I have heard Chuck Smith endorse a lot of things including Dave Hunt's book slamming Calvinism as a false gospel. But Chuck Smith has never followed suit publicly that SDA is a cult. I have heard several questions about SDA asked on the Calvary radio station about SDA, and you never heard the "Cult" word. Chuck Smith also believes in an unbiblical view of our resurrection bodies being given when we die. Smith is also very Arminian, that when asked if the believer has eternal security, his answer has been "if YOU abide in Christ" then you are eternally secure, leaving the final responsibility of our salvation up to us. That sounds very similar to some of SDA teaching. Also, there is a spirit of fundamentalism at Calvary Costa Mesa, as all employees must take the temperance pledge of "Touch not, Taste not" with regard to alcohol. Speaking of fundamentalism, just go to David Cloud's website at www.wayoflife.org and click on the section about dress codes and mixed swimming--it is eerily similar to Ellen White--it is no different, the spirit of fundamentalism. And David Cloud thinks he has the last word on Martin's ability as a cult researcher--I bet he never met Walter Martin! Jeremy, another website that has been totally discredited in the past on this forum, and Chris Lee confirmed this once, and that is that beard website rapidnet--I hope people do click on that website and find where whoever wrote that hit piece on Donald Barnhouse calling him a neo-evangelical and trying to discredit Barnhouse--one of the greates expositors of all time. That web site attacks every major great saint of God, and has NO CREDIBILITY in the Christian world. Compare that to the likes of John MacArthur! Also, speaking of Anthony Hoekema--the great Reformed scholar who did call SDA a cult based on eschatology, analyzed carefully the SDA view of Michael the archangel and (fasten your seatbelts!) he did not call the SDA view heretical, showing how the SDA view differed from the other cults--I have the book in front of me! He also did not see any problem with SDAs Christology and view of the Trinity. Now, you will cringe when Hoekema did not see the scapegoat doctrine as a problem. So what has Wiebe to tell us about the Adventist Jesus? I will read it, and maybe there will be something even the great Reformed scholars such as Hoekema and Kenneth Samples (who wrote the forward to Ratzlaff's book) have missed. You may have hit on something Jeremy, on Randy Roberts that we may agree with. What you described about his sermons lacking the call to repentance sounds very similar to the Rick Warren style, This is starting to fit together. Lee Strobel, an asociate pastor to Rick Warren at Saddleback, feels quite at home in Randy Robert's church. It is well documented in Rick Warren's popular material, that he blurs and confuses justification and sanctification, as well as de-emphasizes the wrath of God and repentance. This is what John macArthur rails against. So, what do you do with Rick Warren? If Roberts and Warren are preaching similar gospels, then what do we say to be consistent. This all ties in to Ric_b's point about double standards in evaluating Adventism. But I will report back on Randy Roberts when I get a chance. Stan | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 510 Registered: 1-2003  |
Dear Friends, In the midst of this discussion/debate that seems to go on and on and ON and seems to be never ending and no nearer to a resolution than when it started: I say only one thing . . . "Praise God that the blood of Christ is sufficient to cover me and allow me to stand before Him as if I had never sinned." I stand in awe of His love and the sacrifice He paid for my salvation and the gift of eternal life which I can spend with HIM to answer some of these questions. In CHRIST alone, Richard PS: Sorry if I have mis-spoken and said something (above) which is theologically incorrect for the experts here to parse and debate. I have no doubt that there is a nuance or shade of meaning I have missed. All I can say is I love Him more than anything else and enjoy quietly resting in His presence. Good Night rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1260 Registered: 10-2004 |
Here is another excellent page from Wiebe's site about EGW's "jesus"/"god": CLICK HERE Jeremy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1389 Registered: 7-2003 |
Lynne, I can't get enough information from that web page to know if their "prophet" ADDs to scripture the way EGW does. I do believe there is a gift of prophecy, and if someone feels led that is their gift and they are not contradicting scripture or demanding things above and beyond scripture, I don't really know how to judge that. But there is a vast difference in one church identifying someone as a prophet and a "denomination" identifying someone as a prophet saying the things EGW does with the expectation you have to believe in her for baptism. I spent a year in Springfield, MO which is the home of the AOG headquarters. I attended the largest church there, and never heard anything but the gospel. Further, if you look at their fundamentals, I'm hardpressed to find anything I would call a "false gospel". (http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_short.cfm). They certainly believe in the gift of tongues, but if you look at these beliefs, it says it is something that happens AFTER salvation, not as a part of salvation or proof of salvation. I've heard that over and over from the pulpit. It's not just something they say for public consumption with something else inside. So, I don't think there is any evidence that puts the AOG church in the same category as the SDA church. I listen to an AOG pastor do a Q&A program locally every Saturday, and he is one of the few I've ever heard who has a clear understanding of the covenants. When asked about the Sabbath, he clearly explains that it was part of the old covenant and has no bearing on the Christian today. To me, I don't really care if "we" call adventism a cult. But I know "they" would never be willing to worship with me in my church the way they think I should be willing to worship with them in theres. Part of the problem I have is that I am not willing to go to an SDA church because I'm not interested in scripture as defined by EGW. And the only time I heard Bs pastor preach, he quoted her to dismiss what the context of the passage really says. I can't/won't submit myself to that kind of teaching regardless of the denomination and I think it's dangerous for anyone who wants to learn pure scripture. It's one thing to be genuinely wrong about a passage and to use a "prophet" because you don't like what a passage says in context. Others may not allow such grace with their preachers, but I have yet to find one who knows it all perfectly. To me, it is not about being "right", it's about making sure if someone goes into adventism or finds themselves in a situation similar to me they know the real adventism, so they can make a fully informed choice about what they're getting into, not the line that they're just like the baptist church with services on Saturday only to find out too late it is not quite that simple. My children and I have forever been adversely affected because of that lie to me, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But that is purely my opinion, as I also said in my last post. |
