| Author | Message | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 426 Registered: 8-2004  |
Loneviking wrote: "I do have a real hard time believing that God would put you into a congregation that is really 'off base' on the essentials--especially when there are so many faithful churches out there." Hmm. So how do you explain my being born into an SDA home? | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 427 Registered: 8-2004 |
Loneviking wrote: "Look, you take the first statement as your standard and try your best to find a church community that fits that standard. That is you doing, you trying, you looking for a church home." Yes, it is me looking, and asking God for wisdom as I look. Yet that was how I looked for a church before I had that statment list as well as after. And I've learned enough in my walk with God to realise that even though I have a 'list' God is quite capable of turning that on its ear, and, while remaining consistent to Himself, turning all of what I thought consistent to inconsistencies, and making things apparently in opposition to harmonise (for example, God is absolutely soveriegn. We have free choice). I have not yet arrived. Blessings, Mary PS: I'm glad we are able to agree at least on some things! | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 279 Registered: 6-2001  |
Mary, I tend to agree with you. I guess the problem lies when you are with someone who has a different "list" than you. Like I have said, I joined the church without much thought of the denomination, unless you count their Willow Creek association. I joined the church because I had attended there a few months and found the people and pastoral staff accepting and caring, and there was nothing in his sermons that sent out warning flags to me. For being a little small (and very poor) the church has a lot of outreach ministries that a lot of people in the church are involved in. (I recently was asked to be "nursery worker scheduler" not a big job, but hey it's something) My hubby has cooled down a bit about the leaving the church thing, but I suspect it could still happen, if he doesn't feel like his feelings are being validated when he talks to the pastor, ect. at our church about it. Will keep you posted! Updatedly, Hannah | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3479 Registered: 12-2003  |
Hannah, I'm happy that things are less "intense" right now. Mary, you made some great points. I realize that the farther I go in this walk with Jesus, the more paradoxes I face. Doctrine seems even more important to me than it used toóand I am more sensitive to unbiblical assumptions and "watering down" than I used to be. Christianity, I believe, is losing much of its power and significance because of people dismissing the authority of the Bible as our final ground of truth. At the same time, I am increasingly convinced that when a person really knows God, is born from above and submits his or her life to Him, God leads us deeper and deeper into walking with the Spirit. I do believe that God sometimes leads people into less-than-doctrinally pure churches for a time for purposes He only knows. For example, when He led my grandmother out of the Eastern Orthodox church into the SDA church in a little town in Romania in the early part of the century, He brought her to a place where she finally had access to the Bible. She really did accept Jesus when she finally "received" the Bible. Although she also became Adentist, she did raise her family to be Christians. Stilted, rigid Christians at firstóyes. But they had access to the Bible, and she herself was a Christ-follower. I know others who have more recently left Adventism who were fed in specific ways they needed to be fed at churches from which God eventually led them away. There is a time in Christ-followers' lives when it is appropriate to be on a diet of milk. It takes time for the basics of Christianity to settle in and become an integral part of a person's thinking and living. Some churches seem to offer primarily milk without much depth. Such churches may be places from which growing Christ-followers must eventually leave, but for a time, they may be exactly what God uses to ground those people in Him. We may have good reason to criticize some churches in general for their lack of Biblical depth, but if a church has the absolute basics right (Rick's list is good), we can trust God to use that church inspite of its limitations. For that matter, we can trust God to work on hearts He calls no matter where they are. God does not leave us where He finds us. He continues to reveal Himself and truth as we grow in Him. Our true responsibility, I believe, is to submit ourselves to Him and ask Him to lead us where He knows we will grow. He is faithful; if we are responding to His Spirit, we will move from milk to meat as He directs. We can trust Him to take His people deeper and deeper into Biblical truth. Yes, I believe we must be deeply discriminating when we look for a church. I believe, though, that people can be fed at certain "shallow" or even more "liberal" churches, at least for a time, because God is not limited by our humanity. He awakens us to Himself and brings alive a desire to deepen and grow and to understand Him and the truth in Scipture at deeper levels. Our responsibility is to be willing to "see" and "eat" when God weans us from milk to meat. Colleen | ||
| Lisa_boyldavis Registered user Username: Lisa_boyldavis Post Number: 171 Registered: 3-2005 |
What a challenging discussion. After interviewing dozens of pastors, reading dozens of web sites, visiting church after church and praying, we ended up in a Christian and Missionary Alliance Church. We needed a church that kept, as Hank Hanagraff says, "The Main things Main, and the Plain things Plain" and chooses to keep the non-essentials open for sake of conscious. We are conservative politically, so could not get comfortable in a church that refused to support the local pregnancy resource center, for instance..., so that was also an issue, to be fair. After all was sorted through, we thought God led us to just the right church, AND THEN I JOINED THE CHOIR. I've heard it said that the devil hangs out in the choir bleachers. It has made it very painful to attend church as the director is manipulative, a game player, full of himself and loves to shame others in front of others, and his wife was as bad or worse with the kids she directed (my daughter for one). SO IF YOU HAVE THE PERFECT DOCTRINE YOU HAVE BUMS TO SHARE THE PEW WITH. My point is that Jesus Christ is all there is. You may find one or two great churches, and maybe even a few friends, but I doubt there will ever be the sense of "family" that I once experienced inside the SDA church. Not because SDA's are so good, but because times were different back then. That was small town life, as a kid, and our entire social existence involved church friends. I don't know the solution to all this, except get busy for God and ignore that we arenít yet in Heaven. I know the Mormon and Jehovahís Witness Churches are also very close knit, but as messed up as Adventism. So maybe community isn't the most important thing. It sure does feel good to attend a church that doesn't bother my conscience every week. AND BY THE WAY, THE CM&A DOESN'T PUSH TIETH OR ANY OTHER LEAGALISM, understands the New Covenant, BUT DOES ENCOURAGE US TO ROLE UP OUR SLEEVES AND GET INVOLVED IN MISSIONS. Well, keep hashing over these issues. There will be some clarity soon. Lisa | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2358 Registered: 3-2004  |
The Community Christian Church, here in Henderson, is the one God told me to go to. I have said before, that when I walked in and sat down, it felt like I had come home. Now this is a large church. It has one service on Saturday evening and 3 on Sunday morning. The one thing, I discovered about it is that tithe is mentioned every service when the offering is taken. It is not pushed, like at the SDA church. When I was taking the DiscoveryE class, I noticed the last lesson was about stewardship and Mal 3:10 was the first verse I say. So, I did my research on tithing, from the Bible, and on the last day of class I presented that research to the pastor teaching the class. Then this past September, I presented the senior pastor with about 6 books written by former Adventists and told him I wanted the church to have them because so many people did not know what Adventists teach. After that I also spoke to him about the tithing sermon he had given the week before and presented him with my Bible research. He knew the texts I was presenting. He was very kind and gracious about it as I told him when anyone mentions tithing, I bristle and want to get up and leave, because of my background as an SDA. I also told him that when tithing is mentioned I tell myself, that God loves a cheerful giver. That is what I do when tithe is mentioned. Coming from a church where everything was figured out for me and had all the answers to going to a church that has the essential truth and some things that "I" think are not essential, I get kind of uneasy. Then I remember that this is the place to which I was directed and I will stay there until God directs me elsewhere. From where I stand/sit, it looks like no one church has all the doctrine all tied up in one pretty package and expects everyone to adhere to that doctrine. The SDA, LDS, JS, RCC do that and I cannot accept that any more. As long as the essentials are taught, Jesus Christ, there are going to be differences where the doctrine is not essential. I will just continue to pray that God take me where He wants me, where I will be fed and where I can do my part to do His will. As always, He is awesome in how He leads and directs us individually. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 442 Registered: 7-2000 |
Thanks, Colleen, you have a gift for explanation that I sometimes wish I had.  Lisa, I really feel bad for you. What you are experiencing with the choir is one of those things that you can find even in a church where the doctrine is good. This point is something I've been trying to get across to Mary and Lynne--it isn't just about doctrine, but that's a great place to start. When I moved here to Carson City a few months ago, there were several churchs that are doctrinally in line with my viewpoints. why did I wind up where I did? Let me share with you my problems/perceptions of some of these congregations: Church of Christ---great group, teaching is pretty good. But they are a tiny group without much concern for outreach. Christian church---again, not a bad group to go with but the local group just isn't growing. They tend to stick to themselves and not be involved in the community which is probably a big part of the problem. First Baptist---along with a couple of other conservative Baptist congregations. (all SBC or roots in the SBC). Two things that bug me about all of these groups is: 1. The altar call---don't get me wrong, there's a place for them. But every week? I was a deacon for one year at First Baptist in Tahoe, and after one year I was very tired of weekly altar calls. I was also tired of hearing from a frustrated pastor who honestly couldn't seem to understand why so many of those who answered the call wound up going back to their old lifestyle. According to Baptist thinking, that wasn't supposed to happen! 2. These churches aren't elder driven. They don't have a board of elders that direct and look out for the church. The 'elders' are the pastors and that's it. I just haven't seen a successful community built without a group of Godly elders to lead. Non-denominational Christian Center---not a bad place, lots of teaching going on. Contemporary worship, outreach as well. However, the leadership isn't very seasoned---there's a real lack of gray hair on the board and there is no sponsoring church. It's also a fairly new church, having started within the last 10 years and really getting going within the last three or four. So---I didn't choose this one either. It reminds me of Willow Creek in the years leading up to what they call 'the train wreck'. (Anybody familiar with Willow Creek will know the story). I did choose Hilltop Community. Elder led, mission and outreach oriented. It's been a growing community since 1975 and started by folks from Peninsula Bible church. The teaching pastor is excellent, a graduate of Trinity Seminary and a student of Ray Steadman (some of you know who he is). There's a total of 5 pastors and 9 elders on the board. The financial records are reguarly audited and open. The worship is varied with Sat. night being contemporary and Sunday morning traditional. The church is basically a smaller version of Trinity E.V. Free in Redlands. It felt right and meshed with my ideas of how a church should run and what a church should be doing. Whew, long post. But, I hope it gives you some idea of other ways to evaluate churches where the doctrine/teaching is good---but the 'fit' may just not be right for you. | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 36 Registered: 2-2006 |
I am only new here and do not really know anyone at all, but I, too, like Ric_b struggled whether to put in my 2 cents. When I saw the discussion go into a line by line disection, I cringed a bit. In Adventism, we analyze ourselves (and others evaluate us, too) line by line, act by act, feeling for feeling, thought by thought, to see if we are correct enough, good enough. I think we have all had enough of that. Mentally, emotionally, spiritually and, even, sometimes, physically, worn out by that, but, now, resting in his grace, his works, his leadings-guidance, Word, his faith, his rest, too. But I know how forums can be, without face to face expressions, smiling eyes and voice tones, which may be entirely friendly, but it does not come through; and I have lurked here long enough to know that this is a Christ centered and covered forum,filled with his fruits, unlike others. I agree with all that Ric_b wrote, especially, that doctrine is important, but not all doctrine is crucial. Jesus Christ and him crucified and risen is crucial and is the entire point, the only point, of the entire Bible. Start with that, whether individually or in a church, and all else, which is crucial, will fall into place, eventually. I, also, had his thought that as formers, we so much worry about finding the right church,in every little detail, feeling a need to have it all boxed up 'right'. That is Adventism, which does have EVERY little detail about God (and his timing) wrapped up in a nice, neat box. (It IS very secure and comforting to own such a paradigm. It can be scary in this society to say "I don't know", especially, after leaving something, where you thought you knew it all about God, life/society and Eternity! Adventism is very pschologically secure in this infantile form, besides materially) It is only a residue of our former conditioning. It passes, in time. I worried all the time--eating at me inside--about finding the perfectly right church in all doctrine; It will not ever happen, I know now, but I have found true Christians everywhere I was (still do in every denomination), sprinkled like salt. I was consumed with it very, very much in my mid thirties (I am 44, now) and was almost paranoid about being in the wrong church, like they would defile my children and me or something. Part of that was because I had almost fallen for some heresies and worse, in the past, but much of it was because of Adventism, as well. In time, I have mellowed a lot and come to understand just what are my 'lines in the sand'. There are not that many of them, anymore. Yes, some things annoy me in my church. No, I do not agree with every single doctrine, but most (God is still teaching me some deeper things and I study and listen/read other people, including the Christian 'Fathers/Mothers' before us).I trust God to answer my questions in time like he always has done. Not every thing is to my own individual list or even makes sense,at times. But the crucial Gosepl of grace is upheld, preached and taught every week. And the service is saturated with scripture every week. And I am around loving Christians (when I can get there, for those who know my situation), who understand the basics of Christ alone, scripture alone, faith alone (by God's gift) and grace alone. The rest, I have learned to let go and let God be God about. It makes for a more peaceful life in my heart, mind and home, externally and internally. Also, I am more useful in the Kingdom, as well. I can go out there and help others better and be a better mother (my first mission field), without all the worrying and anxiety I used to do about myself, being in the right place, the right way, with the right people, thnking the right way, all the time, every second, according to my thoughts. In my own journey out of Adventism, I was just like what Colleen wrote. I was barely in the milk of the Word, let alone the meat. I didn't understand anything, but I held on to Jesus; what little I knew of him from Cradle Roll on up. That was enough for the Holy Spirit. Also, we must admit that the SDA Sabbath School and school system does immerse us in scripture and Bible stories, even if they place an Ellen White slant on it. But...God's Word will not come back void to him! It WILL do its work! Those Living Words get into us, in a way we cannot even understand, even though we were in a false religious system. I found that the Holy Spirit brought those memory verses back to my mind, over and over again, just when I needed them to understand Truth. They are HIS Words, after all, no matter what anyone else does with them. Christ IS the Word become flesh and the Word through his Holy Spirit in us. Anyway, I fed on milk for a decade, if even milk (very watered down milk, I think. ). I didn't get the steak meat until my mid to later thirties. But each time I needed to learn more and get away from a certain kind of church or new, heretical Christian Movement, God MADE SURE I heard something (on the radio, once) or read something, which alerted me to unscriptural deception and taught me more scriptural truth. Then I would get away from that group or what/whomever. God always led me (and family) to another church family and 'feeding'. I want to add that a church family is extremely important, too. People, who build us up, edify, comfort (edify in the NT means comfort, I read), encourage, exhort, use their hospitality gift, teach us, etc.. It is of crucial importance in a church; those gifts and fruits to Believers. And Believers to whom WE can give to and build up, as well; that giving Spirit we are given in Christ. We feel a need to do that for others in our family in Christ. We all need each other very much. Especially, especially, for those coming out of Adventism or any other false system! We wander and need, not just a true 'home' in doctrine, but a true home in the spiritual family of God. Trust me, not all churches have this! One's church needs to act like a family, taking you in. Hannah's bond and feeling torn about and over her church is entirely understandable in this. Individaul connections are difficult to lose, as we all know. Back to my other point---From milk to baby food to chunky baby food to solids to real chewy meat in the Word! Praise God! It took almsot 3 decades and several churches and various theologies, besides other stuff. ALL for a purpose. For one, to teach my kids what to avoid, now, and to teach them the real Gospel. I believe that God's personal leading for another person is not our business, beyond a very prayerfully, Christ-filled attitude of lovingness, in gentleness. (I've had too many logs in my own eyes, blinding me, even when I wanted to 'help', sometimes. I cringe at myself, looking back. Coming out of Adventism, I had to have the chaff of arrogance beat out of me) I am not saying don't give a head's up in warning, but it must be led by the Holy Spirit, in lovingness, always. And one needs to know the person well; have a connection formed between them, in most cases, to be effective becasue the orher person needs to trust. Only God knows where an individaul (and family) should be and what exactly to learn at any particular time on their particular path with Christ. Only he knows their particular mental, social, cognitive and emotional readiness. We can lovingly influence and give our opinions, learning and own experiences, but we cannot tell them what they 'should' do, think or feel. I am no one's personal Holy Spirit. I relate to so much of what Mary wrote. Thank you for posting all of that, Mary! Your question about being born into Adventism is a great point. I was and it made me ponder. My lifetime had a purpose from the beginning, especially, the trials, and he knew me from my beginning, too. Welcome Rafael. I am so sorry that you have had to go through all that you have. You have my prayers, too, for your situation with your wife being, still, an SDA. Christ grace you both, with your children, and keep you all~ Yours, in Christ~ Cathy | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 120 Registered: 7-2005  |
Surprise, surprise! Colleen, so your grandmother was a romanian, a former believer in eastern orthodox church, and she became and adventist! My grandfather was a catholic who became an adventist, here in Romania. Well, what a small world, to find in USA someone who is a former sda with origins in Romania! | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 134 Registered: 1-2005  |
Oh my! Please, when someone here finds the church with the most truth, let me know so that I can STAY AWAY! I am trying to avoid being transplanted from one greenhouse to another! | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 444 Registered: 7-2004  |
Cathy. Thank you for saying what I was feeling but couldn't express nearly so eloquently or heartfelt. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1381 Registered: 3-2005 |
Cathy, That last post was said very well, and what you said needs to be kept in perspective when we debate legitimate theological issues. There is no perfect church. I do agree with Loneviking about the inerrancy of scripture being an essential, not an option. SDA denies inerrancy. Why would we want to go to another church where inerrancy is denied? As Lonevikeing said, in every case I have ever seen where inerrancy is denied, there is always some false and spurious doctrine associated with it. Without scripture being the absolute, final, inspired Word of God, the new extra-biblical authority is man sitting in judgment of God's book and picking and choosing what they will believe. Mary, I appreciate your thoughts. I was slightly troubled by what you said about God using RCC, and liberal protestant churches to give us perspective, or that we can learn from them. These organizations are only fronts for the worst kind of theological error as proven by the testimony of history. Maybe I just misinterpreted you, and I am not trying to be judgmental, but maybe you can clarify this some. You asked about monergism and some clarification on what it means. Basically, it means that salvation is entirely by grace--regeneration through sanctification as Ric pointed out so well. Man has nothing to contibute to his salvation. This was one of Luther's key doctrines. If you would like a Biblical explanation of what monergism is go to www.monergism.com and at the top there will be an explanation. Stan | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 428 Registered: 8-2004 |
Riverfonz, Does not God use everything, even the heathen nations? There are things we can learn from nearly everyone: if not a positive lesson, we can at least learn what not to do. And when we walk in the Spirit, I believe God can use every circumstance, every organisation, every person, to teach us. Thank you for a description of monergism, and the link. I definitely believe that salvation is entirely by grace. Blessings, Mary | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1385 Registered: 3-2005 |
Mary, Yes, absolutely! It looks like I did misunderstand you, and thanks for clarifying. RCC is very good on abortion and puts SDAs to shame on that topic. RCC is certainly better than liberal United Church of Christ protestants, and other liberal protestant groups. Stan | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 319 Registered: 10-2005 |
Amen Lindylou! And before we start pointing fingers at all those denominations out there that don't have "the truth" according to the doctrine we follow, or according to what we believe to be true..... I understand it is important for churches to have certain basic understandings of doctrine. However, putting "grace based" Christian churches and people down for doctrine will not provide them with the knowledge some of them might need. Is God calling former adventists to limit themselves only to certain denominations that have "all or most of the right doctrine" now? How can anyone share their experience with other believers in different grace based denominations. How can brothers and sisters in Christ share the errors of the Seventh-day Adventist church and that doctrine, if one is isolated in a church that only has the most truth. How are sincere people belonging to other grace teaching denominations going to know about the error of the Sabbath and the deceptive Seventh-day Adventist church if we all lock ourselves away into the best church, or limit ourselves only to those few churches that contain all of the right teachings. Perhaps rather than saying once someone becomes a solid Christian, they can then go to a meaty church. Maybe solid Christians should take some of that meat and really see what those imperfect, or so called baby churches "really" teach, and what those people and their pastors are really like. You might not agree with most or some of their doctrine. But you might meet new friends in Christ. And you might not only teach them something, but they might teach you something. You know, like "life outside of the Seventh-day Adventist church" where we once went that had "the truth" according to doctrine. With the full Armor of God, what do believers have to fear from some of those churches that have errors in the doctine? Do we have to agree with everything they teach? You might be surprised, they may not care that you don't agree with everything. And never did I once say that doctrine is not important. But neither should it separate grace based believers or separate them in their common cause of sharing Christ to a lost world. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3488 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Jackob--my Romanian grandmother was actually a mail-order bride "introduced" by her SDA pastor to my Romanian grandfather who had already emigrated to Canada. She left to marry him, sight unseen, largely to avoid the persecution and threats on her life made by her family because she became Adventist. God is sovereign over all! He works out his purposes in the most unlikely ways many times. I just have to praise Him for his hand in history and in my life. Colleen | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 280 Registered: 6-2001 |
Well I sent the letter off ... Won't hold my breath. I agree 100% with your post Lindy I also wanted to add I agree with list posted about what to look for in a church. In my case, however; I would have to add one thing. When I first started looking for a church I didn't have a car (only job my husband could get required him to work on Sundays for a short time) so I needed a church I could walk to. In retrospect I could have ridden a bus, but I was quite intimidated by them back then. When I found this church, just six blocks away (remember I was walking with a one year old) I felt in my heart God gave it to me. I didn't go to that church and start to make friends thinking that as soon as I got a car I would leave and find a better church, just because I could. When I first started going I told everyone that a Methodist church is almost the very opposite of the type of church I had expected to join (I never in my life thought I would join a church with pews!) but I still saw it as God's place for me. And now with this new information, it's not like the church or the people have changed. We weren't able to make it to church yesterday (daughter was sick) but I think we will e-mail the pastor the above letter along with a brief explanation, and set up a time to talk with him. Gently, Hannah | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1315 Registered: 7-2003  |
With the sabbath issue specifically, I have found it very difficult to find a church that has full understanding...they either principalize it or transfer via resurrection day. It's no wonder the people in the pews are so confused. One of the best churches I've found in regards to new and old covenant is an AOG church, but it's a good 45 minute drive, and more inner city than i'm comfortable with...and would be near impossible to get my son to activities, even getting around some of the more "lively" charasmatics. Sometimes, you just have to rely on the spirit of God to lead you where he wants you to go and understand the reasons later. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 425 Registered: 1-2003  |
Melissa, I started to laugh out loud in class when I read your comment about "more "lively" charasmatics". AOG services are not noted for being quiet and "tame". I don't often attend AOG but do attend a Vineyard close to me and as far as worship style it is "tamer" than my home church which is "sda". Having said all this, worship style is not my main criteria for picking a church! ! As others have mentioned here I do believe God moves us into places which He knows we need to be and learn of Him. I know I have had experiences in worship which a few years ago would have bothered me greatly but God knew I needed to let go of some of my prejudice and pride at needing to be in control and placed me where I wasn't in control but His Spirit was. Not sure if this makes sense? Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1317 Registered: 7-2003 |
Well, Richard, I was raised in a very southern baptist church. I had no idea what was out there. The most I knew was methodists "sprinkled" and we "dunked"...not to be irreverant or disrespectful. I had an interdenominational christian youth organization I was a part of through school and my club sponsor went to the AG church. When I was old enough to drive and started spreading out my own "spiritual" wings, I visited their AOG church. Imagine my surprise! The first time I took a boyfriend, I thought he was going to jump into my lap when someone started speaking in tongues next to him. Those are good memories. They were wonderful people and moved me from a very strict, rigid, legalistic view of worship. And they were incredibly sincere and desiring to follow God. I learned a lot from them. I still watch people when they're dancing in the aisles. I am way too introverted to be so extroverted, but it only takes a little while to tell they're at the throne in their hearts. I suspect we all have a lot to learn from others about worship that is pure in motive. I sure have through the years. |
