| Author | Message | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 30 Registered: 2-2006  |
I've been following some of the ongoing discussions on several threads about whether or not SDA is a "cult" and the crux of the matter seems to be the fact that SDA is heterodoxical. According to dictionary.com, heterodoxy is defined as : 1: any opinions or doctrines at variance with the official or orthodox position [syn: unorthodoxy, heresy] [ant: orthodoxy] 2: the quality of being unorthodox. But I wonder: Why does every belief system have to be "orthodox" or else it's automatically considered wrong and dismissed out of hand? So many of the posts on this forum seem to be as obsessed as any Adventist I've ever known, with finding "ultimate truth" and proof-texting their way to the top of the legitimacy heap. Why this intense need to be right? (That's kind of an Adventist trait, in my opinion.) I wonder, is there no room in this new-found freedom outside of Adventism for a little leniance, tolerance, acceptance and compassion? I came onto this forum somewhat of an SDA-basher myself, and after reading for several weeks, I realize how arrogant (not to mention unkind) that attitude really is. It's no different from the SDAs spouting anti-Catholic rhetoric from the pulpit, or putting down the Mormons, or the Jehovah's Witnesses, or even "intellectuals" as happened the last time I attended an Adventist Sabbath School. Please tell me, do we really believe in a God that is this unforgiving and unaccepting? I know I don't. I didn't believe in the God who condemned everyone who wasn't SDA, and I don't believe in a God who condemns all those who are not Christian, and a specific DEFINITION of Christian at that. So, what I would like to know, if anyone can explain it to me, is why is there among fundamentalist Christians this insistence upon THEIR interpretation of THEIR scriptures, and no other religion could possibly be acceptable to God? Why the Bible? Why this particular set of scriptures? Why are other scriptures of other religions not considered valid or worthy of little more than pure disdain? How can anyone know FOR SURE that their belief is right? Why only the Bible? Why is Christianity better and somehow preferable to God? Why must there be an ABSOLUTE RIGHT?? I was raised SDA, and I was taught to believe that all non-Christian religions were just "pretend" religions, that anyone practicing any other religion was just believing a "fairy tale," fooling themselves---or worse yet, purposely deceiving others. When I started studying comparative religion, I began to realize, these other faiths are just as REAL as Christianity. Just as real, just as valid, just as legitimate and just as effective in sustaining the spiritual lives of their practitioners. And no matter how you define it, God is still God..... and none of us really knows exactly what that is, only that it is a concept so far beyond our understanding as to be indefinable. So my question is this: have you (as Christians) ever seriously questioned the very basis of your belief system--the Bible? Have you ever asked yourself (and answered): why do I have this basic, underlying belief in the Bible, and the Bible only? I honestly don't know how one would "prove" such a belief, and I'm wondering... is it simply a leap of faith? Is it simply what you've chosen to believe in... perhaps because it's just what you've always assumed to be true? What if God really doesn't have a preference? What if all the religions that have ever existed in the world, and all the scriptures that have ever been written were merely the results of humankind trying to understand their world? Trying to understand the meaning of life? What if none of them are God's specific "Word", but rather, the ongoing saga of how human beings have tried to reach out to understand and touch and know God? Is such a concept feasible? How do some people have such certainty in what they believe? I don't know. I never have. I doubt I ever will. Is this topic too controversial for this forum? I hope not, but I guess I'll see. Joyce | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 700 Registered: 4-2000  |
Joyce, The Bible stands alone among all other books. It is UNIQUE in its continuity, circulation, translation, survival through time, persecution, and criticism, teachings of prophecy, history, and character, influence on literature, and civilization. As Kenneth Woodward pointed out in NEWSWEEK magazine that after "two thousand years...the centuries themselves are measured from the birth of Jesus of Nazareth. At the end of this year, calendars in India and China, like those in Europe, America, and the Middle East, will register the dawn of the third millennium." (Woodward, "2000 Years of Jesus," NEWSWEEK, March 19, 1999, p. 52) The Bible is the one book that has drawn more attention than any other book in human history. As Theodore Roosevelt once observed, "A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education." Historian Philip Schaff (in The Person of Christ; American Tract Society, 1913) classically describes the uniqueness of the Bible and the Savior: "This Jesus of Nazareth, without money and arms, conquered more millions than Alexander, Caesar, Mohammed, and Napoleon; without science and learning, He shed more light on things human and divine than all philosophies and scholars combined; without the eloquence fo schools, He spoke such words of life as were never spoken before or since, and produced effects which lie beyond the reach of orator or poet; without writing a single line, He set more pens in motion, and furnished themes for more sermons, orations, discussions, learned volumes, works of art, and songs of praise than the whole army of great men of ancient and modern times." I wholeheartedly concur with Dwight L. Moody's heartfelt testimony, "I know that the Bible is inspired because it inspires me." Indeed, the worth of a book is to be measured by what you can carry away from it. In this one book are the two most interesting personalities in the whole world--God and yourself. The Bible is the story of God and man, a love story in which you and I must write our own ending, our unfinished autobiography of the creature and the Creator. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 517 Registered: 7-2004  |
Dennis, I concur wholeheartedly with you in this regard. Joyce, I think we do need to take care that we don't become as self-righteously anti-SDA as we were self-righteously anti-"all other Christians" when we were SDA. But the answer to avoiding dogmaticism doesn't have to be accepting everything as equally OK. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1241 Registered: 7-2003  |
Joyce, are you aware of any other holy-book that has as much evidence as the Bible showing that it is divine in origin? Are you aware of any other holy-book that has as much manuscript evidence? Are you aware of any other holy-book that has as much archeological evidence? Are you aware of any other holy-book that has as much prophetic evidence? Are you aware of any other holy-book that has as much statistical evidence? Chris | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 400 Registered: 10-2005 |
Joyce, I grew up in an agnostic home. I didn't read the bible growing up, I didn't hear any bible stories. I'll tell you how I know the bible is real. The bible has changed me. The bible feeds me spiritually like no other book. I've known what it is to hunger for something more. I read my bible now in the morning along with my coffee. I would never miss my coffee, and I won't miss reading some scripture every morning because it always starts my day better than if I don't read the bible. If you believe in Jesus as it says in the bible as I have with all of my heart, he will embrace you with love like nobody in the world can. There is definately no second to that. You can feel the Holy Spirit. The more I praise Jesus, the more I feel Him. He is the Greatest. He is Mighty and He is my King. When I really grasped that, I could confess to nothing less. The bible is real and God does not lie. And I know many people here in this forum feel as I do. I think like many people here in this forum, I was processed into Adventism, and many of us are processing out. Perhaps many people at times might get caught up with wanting to be right, and that is quite an Adventist trait, but for many of us, I just think we want to understand what we have been through so that we can help ourselves and others. Sharing opinions and experiences does push buttons sometimes. But healthy families can work through differing views and still care for each other unconditionally. I've learned a lot from the many diverse and controversial conversations I've heard on this forum. Lynne | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 401 Registered: 10-2005 |
Joyce, I grew up in an agnostic home. I didn't read the bible growing up, I didn't hear any bible stories. I'll tell you how I know the bible is real. The bible has changed me. The bible feeds me spiritually like no other book. I've known what it is to hunger for something more. I read my bible now in the morning along with my coffee. I would never miss my coffee, and I won't miss reading some scripture every morning because it always starts my day better than if I don't read the bible. If you believe in Jesus as it says in the bible as I have with all of my heart, he will embrace you with love like nobody in the world can. There is definately no second to that. You can feel the Holy Spirit. The more I praise Jesus, the more I feel Him. He is the Greatest. He is Mighty and He is my King. When I really grasped that, I could confess to nothing less. The bible is real and God does not lie. And I know many people here in this forum feel as I do. I think like many people here in this forum, I was processed into Adventism, and many of us are processing out. Perhaps many people at times might get caught up with wanting to be right, and that is quite an Adventist trait, but for many of us, I just think we want to understand what we have been through so that we can help ourselves and others. Sharing opinions and experiences does push buttons sometimes. But healthy families can work through differing views and still care for each other unconditionally. I've learned a lot from the many diverse and controversial conversations I've heard on this forum. Lynne | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 31 Registered: 2-2006 |
I thank you all for your polite responses. I was afraid, after I posted, that perhaps I had been too harsh and critical in my original post. I thank you, Lynne, for your explanation about how the Bible has changed your life. That is something I can really relate to. I have a few favorite authors who have really touched me in the same way. And, of course, now that I have found a church that I am happy and comfortable in, I too am experiencing that Presence of the Holy Spirit that you described. Some days, I am just almost giddy with happiness at the sheer wonder of life! It is that kind of experience that means the most to me because it is what is REAL to ME. One can listen to other people's opinions, or explanations, but it never really means much until you experience it yourself. I didn't mean to suggest that I have no respect for the Bible. In fact, I agree with much that was said by those who responded in regard to the influence and uniqueness of it, and am currently enjoying very much digging into it in a way that I have never done previously. I just was trying to ask, how does one know in their heart, WITHOUT DOUBT, as some of you seem to, that the Bible is the best and/or only "message" from God? I also was not saying that "...the answer to avoiding dogmaticism doesn't have to be accepting everything as equally OK." I certainly don't agree with every belief system I encounter or study, and I agree that some seem to be more useful or contain more "truth" than others. But I am able now, in a way that seems to be highly discouraged by many Christians, to respect other faiths, and recognize them as real and just as legitimate a path to God as Christianity is. I think what really matters is results--what effect does a particular faith or belief system have on the life of its followers? Does it work for them? Does it produce positive results? I don't feel in a position to judge that for any system that I am not knowledgeable about. But I have found a great deal of inspiration, and a whole new way of viewing life, from even the superficial encounters I have had with some non-Christian scriptures and teachings. Thanks, Joyce | ||
| Blacksheep Registered user Username: Blacksheep Post Number: 34 Registered: 3-2005 |
Joyce, I especially appreciate your comments on this thread. It would help a lot of people to know how to "believe without a doubt". But mostly to be okay with whatever belief system works for for the other person. I think that if we are okay with other peoples beliefs, it can be benefitial to us. Can we not be open minded? We couldn't be in Adventism, but we can now that we are out of it. It is sad that so many Christians are uncomfortable with anyone believing differently than they do. Once, when I still believed in soul sleep and mentioned this in conversation with a Baptist woman, she got idignant that I would believe something so "out there". Then too, on this forum, there are those who seem adamant to "make" those who differ from mainstream Christianity to see it only one way...(theirs). It just doesn't work that way. God made us individuals to think and believe each in our own fashion. It seems to me that coming out of Adventism one would be more open to let beliefs range more. I know that if you look beyond the Bible you will find there are other legitimate belief systems. We should allow that diversity, whether it is within the Bible or outside. No one can "know it all". I mean to offend no one. It is just what I think. | ||
| Lindylou Registered user Username: Lindylou Post Number: 152 Registered: 1-2005  |
Joyce, I got on the forum this evening to make a comment very similar to yours at the top of this thread - about how "adventist" it sounds to be arguing about whether or not the SDA church is a cult or not - and wanting to have a definite right answer to that question. "Why this intense desire to be right?" A good question for each of us to ask ourselves. I have to admit that I've done my share of arguing in my life- but since really truly seeing a glimpse of God's grace in what Jesus has done for me - I find my desire is to let others just be! It is rather ironic - I am less dogmatic in my approach since understanding more fully that the gospel is all about Christ's work and nothing whatsoever about my works. Somehow understanding God's love as something that is unchanging - releases me to let others believe how they see fit. Because I have freedom - I can offer it to others. And that is why the Bible and it's story of redemption seems to me to be a book like none other. But I would never want to cram it down anyone's throat. Each person has to search "truth" for themselves. Who am I to tell you what you should or shouldn't believe?! I know that God desires the soul of each person - and I must leave it to Him and the working of the Holy Spirit to do the convicting of what that should look like. I applaud your honesty - I think that is a quality that God finds most refreshing. Blessings, linda | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 128 Registered: 4-2004 |
I have not had the time to be involved here in quite a while even though I try to keep up with the posts in general way. I thought I'd jump in with a quick comment on this topic. Joyce and Blacksheep, I respect your right to believe what you choose to believe. In my eyes your personal beliefs do not make you more or less valuable than anyone else. And if I happen to offend you here I apologize up front. That is not my intention. I think most people have a tendency to protect their own sacred cow(s)and we all have at least one. We need to understand though that there is a difference between our "cow" and what is actually worth defending as truth. I want to comment on a common idea that you both expressed. Joyce you said, "But I am able now, in a way that seems to be highly discouraged by many Christians, to respect other faiths, and recognize them as real and just as legitimate a path to God as Christianity is. I think what really matters is results--what effect does a particular faith or belief system have on the life of its followers? Does it work for them? Does it produce positive results? I don't feel in a position to judge that for any system that I am not knowledgeable about. But I have found a great deal of inspiration, and a whole new way of viewing life, from even the superficial encounters I have had with some non-Christian scriptures and teachings." Blacksheep, you said, "I know that if you look beyond the Bible you will find there are other legitimate belief systems. We should allow that diversity, whether it is within the Bible or outside. No one can "know it all"." I would agree that the "Scriptures" of other religions contain some thoughtful insights, beautiful and inspiring ideas. I would agree that one can find "some" truth in most of them. I know individuals of both Hindu and Buddhist persusion and they are wonderful people. But I must respectfully disagree with the idea that any of these other systems are just as legitimate a way to God as is Christianity. The reason is that all of these contradict each other as to the method of reaching "God" and Christianity contradicts all of them. Regardless of what Rorty and the other postmodernists say, these systems can't all be right. Such a view is irrational. It violates a basic law of logic. Christianity makes an exclusive claim to approaching God. Both the Old and New Testament are very clear that only the God of the Bible is God. The New Testament is very clear that the only way to God is through Jesus the Messiah. Therefore, as a Christian I have no choice but to reject the legitamacy of all other belief systems. A word about evaluating the merits of a belief system on the results it produces. Case in point: Hinduism/Buddhism; the fundamental belief that material reality does not exist automatically leads to a devaluation of humans which in turn has had disastrous consequences for millions of people in India and other parts of Asia for centuries. Hindus/Buddists in the U.S. are westernized. Case in point: Islam; millions living under Sharia law in Islamic states where the civil and religious freedoms we take for granted are virtually unknown. Case in point: Christianity; Judeo/Christian beliefs are the basis for all of the modern freedoms we enjoy. Christians established the first hospitals and orphanages, were the first(only) to push for and achieve the abolition of slavery (which still occurs on a major scale in Islamic and Hindu cultures), also pushed for child labor laws and other social reforms. This was done before Bill Clinton, Lyndon Johnson or even FDR. Therefore, as a Christian, while I can respect people with other views on this, because they are made in the image of God and therefore of infinite value, I cannot allow them the comfortable illusion that their way is just as OK as any other way. Dane | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 511 Registered: 1-2003  |
Linda, thanks for your comments above, I hope everyone reads them carefully. May He richly bless you, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 677 Registered: 7-2004 |
I think we need a thread or two for those of us who do not want to debate doctrine. It seems those who enjoy the "thrill" of getting their point of view across completely ignore those who come to FAF to find encouragement, support, information. My heart aches when I see someone completely ignored for the sake of making a point. I see a trend on FAF that saddens me. I believe God has redeemed my walk through Adventism so I may be better able to share His mercy, love and grace. It is getting harder to share His blessings to those who come to FAF searching for their own freedom in Jesus. They can hardly get a word in edgewise! There is hardly room for them to voice their thoughts with all the refuting going on and on... Maybe I am wrong...maybe FAF is only for those who like the continual debate to prove something - whatever something is. If FAF is a place where we can sing and shout about our victory in Jesus, maybe there is a way those of us who want to can without being drug into a debate? Give me Jesus, Denise | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 32 Registered: 2-2006 |
Thanks, Linda and Blacksheep, for your supportive comments. I really don't come on here to make a pest of myself, or offend anyone, but sometimes it seems that we as humans can get so caught up in our "rightness" that we forget that we are all children of God, each deserving the same consideration and respect as the other. I know from some comments that Blacksheep has made in past posts that she and I share many of the same doubts about many aspects of Christianity that lots of others seem to take for granted. And I truly believe that there are probably others of us lurking around in the shadows (we can't be the only two!), perhaps very much desiring support and someone to talk to, but it's difficult when you're afraid that your opinion might be too "far out" to be worthy even of consideration or serious discussion. Sometimes I feel like I'm back in the Adventist church, being told, 'Never mind, just stop asking questions and thinking--and just believe.' I think in many ways, the folks who are absolutely sure of their beliefs have it easier because they never have to struggle with the kinds of doubt and questions that the rest of us do. And one thing I've discovered in 55 years of living, you cannot force yourself to "just have faith and believe." Either you believe or you don't. I wanted for years to have certainty, but I could never find it. So I have had to "settle" for what seems to make sense to me. And I've found to my delight, it's not really settling at all. It's more like, maybe God just had different plans for me. The diversity of human beings, and the fact of our ability to think and choose for ourselves (i.e. free will) makes me feel very strongly that God intended it to be that way. I really think that God must be, would have to be, big enough and all-encompassing enough to include each and every one of us, no matter where we are on our journeys. And then, there's always the old saying about how boring it would be if we were all just alike---I think there is very likely a lot of truth to that also. I think it's obvious just from looking around our world that God loves diversity! So really, when I seem to throw out these challenges by daring to say something "outside the box", it's because I'd really like to know if anyone out there has ever felt this way, or asked these particular questions, or just wondered, 'how in the world can I ever find any certainty in a world of so many choices?' And what kind of God would it be if there was one and only one 'Truth' for everyone? I appreciate your consideration of my questions (even though the answers may seem obvious to some of you), because I think it's very important for everyone to be heard. I think it is a basic need of human beings--to be heard, taken seriously, and appreciated, no matter who they are. Joyce | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1243 Registered: 7-2003 |
Joyce, might I suggest to you that if God provided 10 ways to be saved, some people would want an 11th. If God provided 1000 ways to be saved, some people would want 1001 and if God provided a million ways some would want more. But God has provided one all sufficient, perfect way that assures the salvation of all who believe. There is no need for many ways. Here's the deal. Jesus claimed that God loved the world in a particular way, He gave His absoutely unique Son so that whoever believes in Him would live eternally. Jesus went on to say that whoever believes in Him will not be judged, but those who do not believe in Him have been judged already. Later Jesus stated that He Himself is THE TRUTH and that NO ONE comes to God except by Him. Jesus' teaching was either true or it was false. There are no other possibilities. If Jesus' teaching was false then He is a false teacher and he is no savior. So Jesus is either the only way to salvation or He is none of the ways. Given the extreme nature of Jesus' teaching there are no other alternatives. If Jesus is a false teacher, then His claims are not only radical, but downright offensive. However, if He is a true teacher then He is the all sufficient way to God. If Jesus is true and if we truly love others we won't try to hide the fact that He is the only way to the Father nor will we act as if we're embarrassed about it. Imagine that you are in a crowded theater when a fire breaks out. It so happens that you've been shown the blue prints of the theater at one point in time so you know that there is only one exit that will lead to safety, the rest are dead ends or lead into other parts of the building. You see people all around you running for the dead end exits, but you say, "You know, it would be really arrogant of me to insist that my way out is the only safe exit. I don't want to appear closed minded so I'll just act as if all the ways are equally valid." So you go out the only open exit and leave the rest to their fate. Sure, you looked mighty open minded, but how loving was that?! Open mindedness wasn't the issue. Arrogance wasn't the issue. The issue was the objective truth that out of all the apparent exits, there was only one that really led to safety. You knew it, but you chose to act as if all exits were equally valid. The problem is, it simply wasn't true, not all exits were valid. There was one exit by which all could have escaped, that was Truth. It would be incredibly immoral and unloving not to tell the truth about that fact. Chris | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 129 Registered: 4-2004 |
Chris, that was exactly my point. Jesus' claim to being the unique door to eternal life was either true, or a lie, or the raving of an unbalanced man. There is no other way of looking at it. Dane | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1264 Registered: 10-2004  |
I would also like to point out that Christianity is different from all other religions. All other religions are about man working his way up to God. Salvation is by works. Christianity is about God doing all of the work for us and reaching down to us. Salvation is by God's grace alone. Jeremy | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 33 Registered: 2-2006 |
I stand by my original premise: Every person is unique--no reasonable God would expect us to all embrace and adhere to the exact same system of beliefs, any more than I would expect everyone to love brussel sprouts, just because I happen to love them. A silly analogy, I know, but I think simple enough to get my point across. That's always been a main sticking point of mine regarding Christianity--it's exclusivity. As for this, from Dane: "Chris, that was exactly my point. Jesus' claim to being the unique door to eternal life was either true, or a lie, or the raving of an unbalanced man. There is no other way of looking at it." No other way of looking at it?? What about "D) none of the above?" Christians always seem to take for granted that, if the Bible says Jesus said it, then he said it. What if Jesus' "claim to being the unique door to eternal life" as attributed to him in the Bible was none other than the opinion of his followers, the conclusion they reached about him in order to explain who and what he was, and why they considered him meaningful to them? I'll ask again, how do we KNOW that because something is stated in the Bible, it was "divinely inspired by God?" How do we know that it's true? How do we know whether Jesus really ever said any of those things? How do we know whether it was just the opinion of men, or the "word of God"? I submit that we don't know. We can't know. We have to just decide to believe either one way or another, based on our own reasoning abilities. We cannot possibly KNOW---we weren't there. If I read a book--any book---I have to ask, "Does this make sense to me? Does it ring true? What does it mean for my life, here and now? Do I think it's true?" That's all we really can do. I believe this is what they call "faith." And I believe that's why some (rather unkindly) call it BLIND faith. I'm not trying to be difficult here. I'm just trying (rather unsuccessfully I guess) to get people to understand, I cannot believe what I don't believe--or don't feel I have any evidence to believe, or what doesn't make sense to me. It just doesn't ring true to me. No offense, I think there was probably much to admire in Jesus, but I just don't know, FOR CERTAIN, who, what or why. I wasn't there. Now, what can you really advise me in this case, other than to ask God to show me the truth? I have. I feel I am seeking and finding truth, a little at a time. But I am no longer straining my mind and my credulity to believe the conventional Christian way. I did that for far too long, and frankly it did nothing except cause me pain and anguish. And what right does ANYONE have to tell me that I am doing it wrong?! I'm sorry, I'm getting a little hot under the collar here, but it's just so frustrating because I try and try to explain my thoughts, and it's like they just go drifting off into the ether unheard. It's not that I don't follow your logic...I do...it carries through nicely, if one can accept the basic premise: the literal, inerrant accuracy of the Bible as the Word of God. But, if a person doesn't view the Bible in that way, it all pretty much falls apart. Try to imagine yourselves in a situation: a perfectly nice, considerate, concerned and sincere Muslim says to you, "I'm sorry, the Quran is the only word of God, no ifs, ands or buts. You must accept it. There is no other way. God couldn't have provided another way (Jesus) or another book (the Bible). Our way is the ONLY way." I'm sure you could quite readily dismiss such an argument and go on your way. That is exactly how I feel when people insist to me: there is only one way. What I'm saying is EVERYONE FEELS THAT WAY! It's normal, it's human. It's fallible. But there you are. There we are. Each different, each making the best choices we know how, and each trying to make sense of life in the best way we know how. That's why I say, God would not be a reasonable God if he couldn't at least rise above our human ways of thinking and say, "I accept you, I don't mind if you're Christian or Muslim or Hindu or anything else. I know that you are reaching out to me in the way that works best for you and, here I am--I'm all yours!" Now, that's the God I believe in. No less a God makes any sense to me. Anyway, I've carried on for far too long here. I'm sorry if this riles anyone up, but sometimes I think people need to be riled up, just to get us thinking and communicating. For far too long I've just kept my mouth shut and gone along, because I didn't want to "offend." But really, I think that if we don't judge each other, and condemn each other for our differing beliefs, there will be no reason to take offense. Thanks for "listening"---hey, at least we're finally discussing something other than whether SDA is a cult or not! Joyce | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 513 Registered: 1-2003 |
Joyce, "Thanks for "listening"---hey, at least we're finally discussing something other than whether SDA is a cult or not! Joyce" Yes and may you blessed because of it.  <grin> Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3942 Registered: 12-2003  |
I believe we should all be able to express our questions and experiences and conflicting perceptions and beliefs here. I would like to see the theological "debates" about Adventism's relative validity limited to a specific thread. We can't keep bringing our "angst" and defensiveness into every thread we participate in. To be sure, we will have differing opinions on all sorts of subjectsóbut we must find ways to express those opinions without fighting. If the truth were known, there are a great many unseen personal, emotional and relational issues that underlie what often appears to be rigidity or anger. We have to learn both to speak without caustic accusations AND to absorb each other's anger. Richard and I have heard from people in the past couple of weeks from both ends of the spectrum: some saying they feel they need to stay away because they're no longer free to express their deep convictions of Adventism's darkness which they are currently processing (and I'm speaking of people who have not necessarily participated in these discussions) and others are saying they feel the forum is "not safe" because of people speaking of the darkness. In fact, we all relate to this church of our past in different ways because we are all in different stages of dealing with it. We must be able to speak of what we experience, whether we are struggling with its darkness or whether we are wanting to cut it some slack. After our experiences of the past weeks, Richard and I are appealing to everyone: talking about our own experineces is completely different from arguing. We can say all the same things, but we must respect each other's experiences and understandings. I truly feel love and concern for all of you here; you are in so many real ways my "family" in Christ. We must respect each other's needs to talk about what they experienceóand we must do so with other people's feelings and weaknesses in mind. We don't have to avoid saying what we believe, but we must also respect those who see differently. With prayers for us all, Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1244 Registered: 7-2003 |
Joyce, it is your basic premise that is deeply flawed. You seem to be saying, in essence, that god is whatever we want him to be. You seem to be suggesting that even diametrically opposing views of different gods are equally valid and equally true. That can only be true if each individual has the ability to create their own god. But then, that would be no god at all. If there really is a God who is creator of all, who existed before all, then He is Who He is. God, in and of Himself, defines Truth and Reality. He is not defined by His creation, rather His creation is defined by Him. If there is a real God, then there is reality to His Being and His character that is true whether or not a person chooses to believe it. Let me give you an example that draws from several widespread world views. 1. There is no god. 2. There is one God. 3. There is more than one god. All three of these worldviews can NOT be true. Only one can be true and the other two are of necessity false. If #1 is true, then Christianity and Hinduism are false (to name just two). If #2 is true, then atheism and Hinduism are false. If #3 is true then atheism and Christianity are false. All three can never be true. It's irrationale to suggest that all worldviews are equally valid. Joyce, I also have to lovingly point out that you display your own form of dogmatism when you insist that there is no objective truth that is true for everyone. That in itself is a truth claim. When you suggest that there is no absolute truth except the absolute truth that there is no absolute truth, you have just made a self-defeating truth claim. That is certainly dogmatism of a sort, but dogmatism that is not philophically sound. Joyce, I say the following nicely and I hope it comes through it print. But you seem to be suggesting that those who belief in the historical reliability of the biblical record are being arrogant. And yet you display a far greater arrogance in claiming that you know better what Jesus might have said or not said then the eyewitnesses who were there to hear it and record it. When you suggest that the records of what Jesus said about Himself are not accurate you are basically saying that your own opinion and judgment are more important and more valid than the eyewitness reports. That is an arrogance that has no historical validity to back it. It's like claiming that I have a better idea of what President Lincoln really said and did during the civil war then his biographer because I think I know what Lincoln was like. Finally, when people make truth claims for the Koran or any other book, I definately think we should check it out. In the case of the Koran it really doesn't stand up under scrutiny nor does the Book of Mormon or many others we can name. On the other hand, the Bible stands up very well based on the manuscript evidence, the archeological evidence, the prophetic evidence, and the statistical evidence. Honestly, I don't think the problem is that people don't have enough evidence to believe. It's that they choose not to in spite of the evidence. Chris |
