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Mwh
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Username: Mwh

Post Number: 15
Registered: 4-2006


Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 2:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi

My Adventist friend tells me that the Adventists only teaches faith = salvation + works and not faith + works = salvation. I'm sure that I have read and heard that this is not the case.

Would be nice if you could point me to some writings of the church which clearly teaches faith + works.
Raven
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Username: Raven

Post Number: 453
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 3:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ask your friend if they believe it is possible for a Christian who understands the seventh-day Sabbath command but chooses to not keep any particular day and/or to worship on Sunday, to be saved. Official SDA teaching is that those who know and reject the "Sabbath truth" will be lost. That is faith + Sabbath keeping (a work).

The original Investigative Judgment doctrine stated that those living in the time of the IJ have to reach a point where they are no longer sinning. If their name came up in the IJ (and no one can know when that would be), and if they had even one unconfessed sin still on their record or still going on in their life, the decision would be made they are not going to heaven. Today, SDA's have a kinder, gentler understanding of the IJ. Many will say all that matters is the trend of a person's life, and that they are at least trying. Either way, it's still faith + works.
Ric_b
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Post Number: 529
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Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 7:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

MWH, the "faith = salvation + work" beings to lose some of its luster as you dig deeper into the SDA psyche on this. The full teaching is that faith produces righteous behavior, perfect observance of the law, and, ultimately a spotless character. And it isn't just faith, it is your cooperation with God that produces these results. So that if you do not have these results through your cooperation (which isn't work?) with God through faith, then you do not have the kind of faith of faith that will save you.

Ellen White defined righteousness by faith as ìIt is to hear and to see that with the righteousness of Christ which you hold by faith, righteousness supplied by His efforts and His divine power, you can keep the commandments of God Faith and Works, page 71 paragraph 3.

Further EGW quotes on the subject--4 "Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement." (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 214)

"But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain. "Let no one say, I cannot remedy my defects of character. If you come to this decision, you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life. The impossibility lies in your own will. If you will not, then you can not overcome. (Christís Object Lessons, p. 331)

"Genuine faith will be manifested in good works; for good works are the fruits of faith. As God works in the heart, and man surrenders his will to God, and cooperates with God, he works out in the life what God works in by the HolySpirit, and there is harmony between the purpose of the heart and the practice of the life. Every sin must be renounced as the hateful thing that crucified the Lord of life and glory, and the believer must have a progressive experience by continually doing the works of Christ. It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained" (Selected Messages, Book 1, pp. 396-398).
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1660
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 8:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ric_b,

That stream of thought is right out of the perfectionistic teachings of EGW's time. It is another gospel. I remember the Morris Venden books, and he wrote one called "Faith that Works", the bottom line is justification plus sanctification equals justification--which is the Roman Catholic gospel as well as Finney's gospel and the gospel Ellen White appeared to have adopted--depending on who she was copying.

Stan
Ric_b
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Post Number: 534
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Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 8:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It was really confusing that Venden was considered a proponent of "grace" because reading his stuff now it is clearly the case that his idea of grace is Catholic not Protestant. It makes his 95 Theses book particularly ironic.
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1662
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Ric,
I have seen folks post here who say that Venden taught a correct doctrine of grace. I don't believe he does teach correct doctrine. I think he might have in the past ten years or so adopted a view that appears to teach it--but it is disguised. I must distinguish between Venden, and the likes of Ford and Van Rooyen.

There were a series of books written by Venden in the early 80's that were very confusing to me when I was a very young Christian, and someone was trying to tell me that Venden preached grace--No--it was undisguised Roman Catholicism!

Stan
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1663
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Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 9:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The classic work illustrating Adventism's historic views being practically identical to the Roman Catholic view is a book by Geoffrey Paxton, "The Shaking of Adventism" showing that Martin Luther and Adventism were enemies.

This has been posted before, but i will post it again--the link where you can download or read it off the web at www.presenttruthmag.com/7dayadventist/shaking/index.html

Stan
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 3953
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are Adventist pastors todayóI saw a DVD of John Nixon of Oakwood preaching a sermon on this subject this last weekendóin which he preaches pure justificationóbut then when he gets to sanctification, the works are necessary to stay saved. It is even more confusing than the more traditional version of Adventist "grace" preaching because he unequivocally says that we are saved entirely by Christ's work, that we contribute absolutely nothing, and that we not only receive righteousness but we receive Christ Himself.

Then he moves to sanctification, and he clearly says that we are saved as long as "we keep ourselves in Christ". He uses a Sabbath-keeping story as an example of the "faith+works" that equals sanctification, and he says that we can choose to remove ourselves from Christ's hands. He cleverly words his message so he can't be quoted as saying our works contribute to our salvation, but his very clear message was that lack of works and lack of choosing to do those works and lack of keeping ourselves in Christ would result in losing salvation.

In addition, he explained that baptism is the point of new birth, and he clearly said that only Christ merited righteousness by his perfect behavior. He also said that Christ "earned salvation" by his perfect behavior (and he didn't say He earned OUR salvation.)

Excuse me?

In fact, that statement reflects what most Adventists believe: Jesus inherited a fallen nature, and His perfection qualified Him to be our Savior and to "earn" His own salvation.

It was a most frustrating experience. As Richard said, young people getting taught this stuff will be worse off than those who learned traditional Adventist teaching because they are hearing all the words of true Christianity, but they are learning they mean something completely different. If they walk into a Christian church, they won't know that what they are hearing is really something different than what they already know. They will be innoculated against the truth in a profound, confusing way.

Oh, and there was no message of repentance, accepting Jesus' blood to cover us, or any focus on the cross. It was just a "grace message"ósort-of.

Colleen
Snowboardingmom
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Username: Snowboardingmom

Post Number: 87
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 11:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for those quotes, Ric_B. It was really good for me to be reminded of what I had come out of.

It's SO overwhelming to me to read them now; reading them INSTANTLY gave me that same sinking "it's impossible to be right with God" feeling that I used to have in Adventism. I had actually forgotten how intense those feelings were. It reminded me of all of those agonizing moments, as an Adventist, when I would be thinking, "This is a good day--if I were to die today I'd probably be okay" to "Oh, this is a bad day--I hope I don't die today." How stressful is that? To constantly have to worry about that?! I forgot just how insecure I used to be about my salvation. How can anybody just rest in Jesus when you're constantly worried about being "spotless"? No wonder I have baggage!!! I specifically remember reading the quote, "Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement." (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 214) back in highschool and thinking, "okay...I can do this. I have to, otherwise the consequences is eternal death." How messed up is that?!

EGW's counsel on attaining a perfect character goes way beyond just living for the Lord and obeying Him out of love (which is what "new Adventism" says). After "reliving" those vivid fear memories that those quotes brought out, I see really clearly now that there is no way I can live for the Lord and obey Him through love with the constant threat of losing my salvation hanging over me. There is no way! And there is no peace! Ever...

You know, often I still get fearful and doubtful about my decision to leave Adventism (like just this last week :-)), and wonder "what if they're right?". But after remembering the CONSTANT doubts and fears I used to have? These new doubts are nothing in comparison! And with my new every-once-in-awhile fears and doubts, I have hope!! The only hope of relieving my old doubts and fears were within myself, and how discouraging that was! I AM SO THANKFUL NOW that with these "sometimes I have them" doubts and fears, my hope rests in Jesus, not myself. That's real hope.

Again, thank you for those quotes. I really needed to be reminded of how far I've come by having a relationship with Jesus based off of love, not fear!

Now, I have to calm down :-). Those quotes got me all worked up and actually quite upset. It's so far from the true gospel--it's heresy!!! It's just so wrong.

Grace
Snowboardingmom
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Username: Snowboardingmom

Post Number: 88
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 11:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,
I just now saw your post. It is really clear to me now (after reading those EGW quotes Ric_b posted) and remembering all those old feelings, how warped that "sort-of-grace message" John Nixon preached on was. For some reason, all those old feelings resonating in me clarified all the confusion I was having. I completely see now how John Nixon's words are different from the traditional presentation, but the message is really the same. There is still an underlying, "you better do this or else..."

It's SUPER clear now.
Thanks,
Grace
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1664
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 11:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Grace,
I am excited to watch your discovery of Grace!

Stan
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 3960
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 11:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Praise God, Grace! Phil 1:6...

Colleen
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1272
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Grace,

It's also important for us to keep in mind that any fear we get is not from God:


quote:

"For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, 'Abba! Father!'
16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God," (Romans 8:15-16 NASB.)

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love." (1 John 4:18 NASB.)




So, your fears are not from God, and they are not from your current belief--they are from your old belief. Therefore, your old belief is WRONG! :-)

Just remember, Jesus is enough!

Jeremy
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1666
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Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 4:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would like to get your opinion on this link that Jeremy posted some time back, and get your comments on whether this sermon by John Wesley is similar to the faith plus works gospel as stated above.

www.godrules.net/library/wsermons/wsermons43.htm

This might give us a clue as to where the doctrine of perfectionism came from originally, or maybe I am reading something into this that isn't there. This sure sounds very Roman Catholic and very Adventist to me. What do you think?

Stan

Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 535
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Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 6:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan, what I have read from Wesley reminds me more of evangelical SDAism than historical SDAism. I can't define specific examples, perhaps if I spent more time with it I could. But there is a difference in tone that is distinct.
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1667
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 6:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I cannot say that reading Wesley's sermon above is exactly like Ellen White. But it is not close to Martin Luther. Somehow there is a tediousness in reading that--maybe not the same tone, but it is also not as pure as Ford and Van Rooyen. It is very similar to what I have read in Venden.

Stan
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1670
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Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"From the time of our being born again, the gradual work of sanctification takes place as we are enabled 'by the Spirit' to mortify the deeds of the body, of our evil nature; and as we are more dead to sin, we are more and more alive to God. We go on from grace to grace while we are careful to abstain from all appearance of evil, and are zealous of good works as we have opportunity, doing good to all men; while we walk in all his ordinances blameless therein worshipping Him in spirit and in truth; while we take up our cross, and deny ourselves every pleasure that does not lead us to God.

It is thus that we wait for entire sanctification; for a full salvation from all our sins--from pride, self-will, anger, unbelief; or, as the Apostle expresses it 'go unto perfection,'..."

What do you think of the above statements? Does the above sound like good news?

I will say that after we are regenerated and saved forever, then our walk should be like that described above. But if salvation is described as some tedious process, then it sounds like more of the same. Can anyone guess where I got those quotes?

Stan
Mwh
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Username: Mwh

Post Number: 24
Registered: 4-2006


Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 2:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sounds real to me. And it sounds like good news as well, I'm going to have a better and better relationship with the Lord.

Umh I read the last part as when we are with the Lord we will be saved completely we wont be able to sin anymore.

From John Wesley, SERMON 43: THE SCRIPTURE WAY TO SALVATION
http://gbgm-umc.org/UMHistory/Wesley/sermons/serm-043.stm

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