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Lynne
Registered user
Username: Lynne
Post Number: 404
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 11:31 am: |     |
This jumped out at me one day while on the internet:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EYLTVG/qid=1147886262/sr=8-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-1320317-1540765?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=1036592
I wanted to start a thread regarding Little Debbie snacks, and other Adventist facts.
I know that Little Debbie is Adventist owned and that they are now sponsoring NASCAR #21, and I read that the car must be covered on the Sabbath.
I found that quite interesting since I was at the grocery store last Saturday and saw Little Debbie snacks at the front door on sale. I won't ask why, because I already know, I was an Adventist... I picked one box up and looked at the fat content, 27 grams of fat for a little cake, and the grams of sugar were extremely high. I have read fat grams and sugar grams for years, so I'm not inexperience in knowing what foods are the highest in fat and sugar content.
Anyway, I particularly remember once seeing Dennis mention the following 3 topics in a thread, that he said he shares with new members of his church, pertaining to the Seventh-day Adventist church in history. They were, Little Debbie Snacks, Kelloggs and Circumcision.
After reading that thread, a thought stuck in my mind, I wonder what facts Dennis knows that many people don't know on these topics, including some of us formers.
So if Dennis is out here, or any one else that has more than actual, but really factual information on these topics, I'm sure there are many in the forum that would enjoy hearing about it.
I'm not against occasionally indulging. Here is a great recipe for deep fried twinkies:
http://www.sptimes.com/2002/06/26/Taste/The_Twinkie_transform.shtml
Lynne
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Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 710
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 3:44 pm: | |
Lynne,
Thank you for your comments. Whenever I address a group about Seventh-day Adventism, I usually take along a grocery bag containing an empty Kellogg's cornflakes box and a Little Debbie snack box as visual aids. Why? First of all, many non-Adventists have no clue that their lives have been impacted by Adventism--including how they eat breakfast and consume snacks. I ask them, by show of hands, if they have ever eaten these products. The Litte Debbie box is the last one out of the bag being that some may be more reluctant to admitting to have eaten them (smile).
I have found this method very effective in introducing the uniqueness of Adventism. Also, I reserve a time for questions after my presentation. I always get many questions from the audience on various topics pertaining to Adventism. I have also used recorded guitar music with a former Adventist minister singing meaningful ballads about SDA dogma.
Since I greatly love history anyway, my presentation is generally filled with historical anecdotes about SDA pioneers. Regarding male circumcision, Dr. John Kellogg (Adventism's first GC Medical Director) had a powerful impact on the American medical community. Before Dr. Kellogg's time, American baby boys were rarely circumcised. His sole purpose for circumcision was to restrict and/or eliminate masturbation. Dr. Kellogg encouraged parents, who caught their boys in the act of masturbating, to bring them to him for circumcision without any anesthesia to teach them a lesson.
Early Adventists also believed in nineteenth-century vitalism--the concept that a boy only had limited reproductive capacity that could be easily exceeded by masturbating. For girls, Dr. Kellogg applied carbolic acid to teach them a serious lesson. EGW fully endorsed this crusade against solo sex and marital excess (e.g., "An Appeal to Mothers" (1864) and "Solemn Appeal" (1870). In Victorian America, this made Ellen White look very good. However, in today's culture, this makes her look most ridiculous and untrustworthy. The history of sex, from almost any factual source, usually includes a comment about Seventh-day Adventists.
Dennis Fischer
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Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 67
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 4:21 pm: | |
Dennis, this is horrible! Absolutely horrible! Where did you find these facts about Dr. Frankenstein...er..uh..I mean Dr. Kellogg?
Next question: how in the world could anyone think that circumcision would either restrict or eliminate masturbation? Maybe the techniques Dr. Kellogg practiced removed more than just the foreskin.
I have three sons in their 30s. I'm so glad I didn't have them circumcised, epecially now that I know the reason the practice got started in America.
I'm shuddering and convulsing in my spirit at the thought of this wickedness being propagated by Ellen White. I've tried for a very long time to find nice things to say about EGW and not offend anyone (read: hubby) by minimizing my objections to her doctrine.
But NOW...[shudder]...I can hardly stand to think of how false a prophet this makes her. If she really did hear from God, she would have known better than to promote child abuse in the name of religion.
No wonder Sybil was off her rocker. Her SDA mother must have decided she didn't need Dr. Kellogg as she administered the deterrent herself.
I'm going to be reeling from this information for a long time. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1274
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 5:16 pm: | |
EGW also caused people's deaths (including babies) through her "inspired-by-God" counsels, by claiming that it was a sin to go to a physician, by forbidding the use of quinine for malaria, etc. But every time she murdered someone, she would just blame it on the person who followed her requirements and refuse to repent or acknowledge that she did any wrong. She even denied ever having said that it was wrong to go to a physician--when it was stated directly in her previous writings!
That is only the beginning of all of her crafty/intelligent lies, deceptive schemes, financial scams, bigotry/racism/discrimination, etc.
Theologically, Biblically, and otherwise, there was nothing Christian about Ellen G. White.
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on May 17, 2006) |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1669
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 7:25 pm: | |
Jeremy,
You have accused Ellen of being a Satan Worshipper and now a murderer. Those are serious charges. Do you have documentation that she directly worshipped Satan? Also, do you think it can be proven that Ellen was a murderer?
She was a product of her times, and she just copied all the other health quacks of her time. She later changed her views about going to see physicians. She was in direct approval of CME becoming a fully accredited medical school, which by definition would say that she approved going to Doctors.
Stan |
Pegg
Registered user
Username: Pegg
Post Number: 6
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 7:36 pm: | |
Jeremy!
This is worse than I ever thought! I didn't believe it when I started reading that link. I got right up and went to our Testimonies #2. (Ofcourse we have all The Books!)
It's all there, and even more that they didn't print!
My heart is sick. It's more than sad. I can't say anymore.
Pegg
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Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 537
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 8:25 pm: | |
So Colleen what is the deal? Will Stan and I get a tongue-lashing for challenging Jeremy's wild statements while he continues to make them? I want to challenge his choice of words as being counter-productive, but feel that any opposition to his inflammatory rhetoric isn't welcome here. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3973
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 9:34 pm: | |
"Get rid of all bitterness, rage, and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
"For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Therefore, live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists of all goodness, righteousness, and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. For every thing exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is the light that makes everything visible" (Eph 4:3132; 5:8-14a).
This is the prayer I pray every day for this forum:
Dear Father, please protect the forum from evil, distortion, deception, dissension, division, and distraction. Please send the Holy Spirit to be the moderator, and help this forum to be a place of truth, support, and prayer. Please help the subjects that need to be discussed to be brought up, and send those who need to be here. Please help all those who post and those who lurk to find truth and to grow in love and trust in You. Please be present here, and please help everything we say to be of You, for You, and from You.
In Jesus' name,
Amen.
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Esther
Registered user
Username: Esther
Post Number: 323
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 8:18 am: | |
Colleen, thank you for that beautiful prayer! Wonít it be amazing one day, in another place, where we can have fabulous discussions in person, where weíre not limited by the ìblindnessî of discussion on the web.  I truly value everyone here, and everyoneís insights. I think you all bring so many perspectives and I like to see the coin on both sides, sometimes, so to speak.
Iím asking a question here but please understand my intentions first. Iím not siding with anyone, or even trying to drag this particular topic into the controversy. Iím just trying to ask so that I can make an informed decision for myself by knowing what common practices are.
In todayís world, even consider a few generations ago, what is the practice for a person being given bad medical advice? Recently we lost a wonderful student here on campus to a diabetic episode when the doctors he went to see in the ER failed to catch it and sent him home. As I understand it, the family was eligible to collect damages from the doctor. I understand that this kind of thing happens a lot, which is why malpractice insurance is so high. And on the flip side, there are all kinds of people who go to independent organizations, etc for ìmedical treatmentî and sometimes it works, sometimes not, but you rarely hear of any lawsuits in these cases. The only difference I see with EGW is that she was claiming to people that she had this counsel from God.
Now I totally get the arguments from the ìsheís crazyî side Believe me, Iím there. What I want to know, is from those of you who feel that thereís a defense for her. I totally get that youíre not ìsupportingî her, or ìagreeingî with her, or anything like thatÖyou are wanting to look at this rationally and credibly. Right? So I guess Iíd like to hear what those reasons are? I mean, even the woman who drowned her children is serving time in jailÖand she was suffering from a medical condition. If this topic comes up with my family, Iíd like to be able to discuss it appropriately. So I really do value your input, yet struggle with how any ìconditionî on her part excuses this inappropriate advice. Is it because itís somehow comparable with the medieval practice of ìblood lettingî?
I guess Iím just looking for more perspectiveÖI hope this ok? Sorry in advance if notÖ |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1672
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 11:32 am: | |
Esther,
Thanks for your questions. First of all as you said above, and I want to say again, I am not defending Ellen White in anyway. She by any Biblical definition was not a true prophet.
I am speaking from a medical perspective as I am a full time Internal Medicine physician doing strictly inpatient hospital medicine. Whenever I send someone home from the ER, I always think of the medical consequences to that patient if I send him home vs. admit to the hospital--as in that terrible case of the diabetic that you mention. Not knowing anything more about the case than you mention, I would have to say that there may have been a case of clear malpractice. But, we as physicians all make mistakes, sometimes people die because of our mistakes, but that does not rise to the level of being called murderers, unless that was our intent.
I would have to see more of the details of the alleged incidences when people died as a result of taking Ellen's medical advice. She was no physician, but she did claim to speak for God--which is very serious. But Ron Numbers book "Prophetess of Health"--see my new thread "the mind of Ellen"-- but Numbers puts a historical perspective on all of this in his book. Ellen was a product of her times. Her crazy quack medical advice was the same type of advice being given out by other quacks of her time. If she told people not to go to doctors because God told them not to go, then this cannot be excused in anyway. But Ellen's perspective had to change as she matured, otherwise, how could she give direct approval for Loma Linda to become an accredited medical school. LLUMC stands today as a well respected medical school, because they became accredited as Ellen advised.
Even if she had psychiatric illness as Numbers suggests, it still doesn't excuse a lot of her behavior. My only appeal is to try to use the kind of rhetoric--that would still say the same thing--but say it in a more objective way, without some unsupportable accusations and name-calling that might be excessive, and turn people off as we try to reach them.
I have a lot more to say, but my day job calls me now, so will try to post more later.
Stan |
Lynne
Registered user
Username: Lynne
Post Number: 405
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 11:57 am: | |
Dennis,
Here is an interesting article I found on the internet that may be of interest to some people pertaining to the topic of circumcision and Adventism. http://www.stayfreemagazine.org/10/graham.htm
I did a little more research myself, and found that in 1900 only 7% of American males were circumcised. In 2000, 70% of American males were circumcised. Statistics were found here: http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=26
I'm uncertain as to the accuracy of the facts stated in the above article. When I researched other websites, I found that statistics were often variable depending on the website.
When I first became an Adventist, they very much brought to my attention that EGW lived in times that were very different than the times we live in now. And of course if she lived in this age, her practices would be different and probably much more consistent with the medical and scientific community today. That is an argument the Adventists will always use against the claims of EGWs behavior and some of her writing, that they were not considered extreme in those times.
We, as Americans, have a shocking and terrible history as well and are dishonest in our marketing practices.
If we talk about the History of the U.S. in the same manner as we do of the Adventist Church, we must very well throw out our entire historical heritage as Americans because we would be a culture of false biggots. I'm not saying this to support the Adventist church. But I wanted to say it because it is just what the Adventist church would say to the outsiders and those coming into the group.
I don't think we can sound fair or rational if we place too much emphasis on the things people said and the cultural practices of the 1800s. Some of the things I've heard about my irish catholic background would certainly be consistent with those times as well and quite shocking now.
The following is found at this link: http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/
United States of America
Nowhere did preventive circumcision become more popular or more rigorously enforced than in the United States. This statistical essay, A century of circumcision, offers some reflections on why a nation which prides itself on its individualism and its love of freedom should be so keen on this mark of uniformity and servitude. There are also some revealing articles from the 1890s explaining why women often need circumcison as much as men, the evil effects of infantile and childhood phimosis, and an account of the astounding history of a surgical torture device called the Gomco clamp. Invented in the 1930s, this was a crucial weapon in the struggle of obstetricians and gynecologists to gain control of childbirth, and seize responsibility for circumcising boys from the surgeons. There is also an account of the campaign in the 1880s to compulsorily circumcise Black Americans so as to "protect them" from syphilis; and of the attempt in the 1890s to pass a law requiring all Negro boys to be circumcised so as to reduce their sex drive and protect white women from rape. Another page outlines the challenges to routine circumcision mounted by sceptical critics, beginning in the early 1940s, and continuing to the present. Leonard Glick explains why he wrote Marked in your flesh, and his book is reviewed by a puzzled critic.
Lynne
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Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1674
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 12:14 pm: | |
Thanks Lynne. Excellent points.
Stan |
Esther
Registered user
Username: Esther
Post Number: 324
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 12:17 pm: | |
Thanks for the perspective! I do see how the particular time period played into alot of what Ellen lived. As it has throughout human history. It really is true that "we see through a glass dimly..."
...here's lifting my caffinated beverage to all you all, and still thanking God every day for this liberty! |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1280
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 1:15 pm: | |
Actually, a lot of what EGW said went against the culture and "mainstream" of her day, such as her forbidding her followers from going to physicians. Also, she forbade quinine, which was the accepted treatment and the only known cure for malaria in her day.
Instead, Ellen's cure for malaria was, get this, lemon juice! (See http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw74.htm)
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on May 18, 2006) |
Lynne
Registered user
Username: Lynne
Post Number: 406
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 1:23 pm: | |
Thank you Jeremy. That is a good link.
Lynne
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Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1281
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 1:32 pm: | |
EGW also forbade all drugs, homeopathy, etc. (See http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw30.htm) She even wrote (numerous times) that physicians should not use drugs. LLU does not follow her counsel.
quote:"Drug medication is to be discarded. On this point the conscience of the physician must ever be kept tender and true and clean. The inclination to use poisonous drugs, which kill if they do not cure, needs to be guarded against. Matters have been laid open before me in reference to the use of drugs. Many have been treated with drugs and the result has been death. Our physicians, by practicing drug medication, have lost many cases that need not have died if they had left their drugs out of the sickroom." (Medical Ministry, page 227, paragraph 5.)
Jeremy |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1675
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 1:41 pm: | |
That link won't come up now. But, it is true that the doctors were not very good especially during the first 60 years or so. I believe there is evidence that EGW changed her mind on this point and later recommended going to doctors--as is very obvious if she agreed that Loma Linda should have an accredited medical school. It just doesn't make sense that she didn't change her mind. One person who never changed her mind was Mary Baker Eddy--her followers to this day largely don't believe in doctors.
Also the racial bigotry was much more a factor in her time--but that doesn't excuse her bigotry. She was just a product of her times as Ron Numbers says so well. A lot of what Ellen wrote about strict dres codes reflected the fundamentalist folks of her day. Her writings on perfectionism were right out of Charles Finney's play book. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1676
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 1:46 pm: | |
OK Jeremy,
I know I have seen where Ellen changed her tune on this. I know I saw something she wrote recommending LLU become accredited. That would have been impossible if she stuck to her views. Can you find the quote where she wanted CME to become accredited. I just can't find it, and I don't have time.
Stan |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1283
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 2:06 pm: | |
Of course she changed her view. In my post last night, I said that she denied ever having held her previous view.
I don't see what her changing her view later has to do with anything at all, however--except that she contradicted herself.
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on May 18, 2006) |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1284
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 2:11 pm: | |
In my above post, I was referring to Ellen's forbidding people to go to doctors.
If you meant her view on drugs/medication, she never changed her view on that as far as I know.
As far as going to doctors, the SDA apologist Bob Pickle gave me that response about doctors being dangerous in the early days. But it was only 11 years later (at the most) that she denied ever holding to the position that you should not go to doctors--I doubt too much changed with regard to doctors in those 11 (or less) years. But it's really irrelevant anyway, since her reason for not going to doctors had nothing to do with it being dangerous--but it being a "lack of faith"!
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on May 18, 2006) |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1285
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 2:21 pm: | |
To add to my above comment, EGW obviously thought that doctors were good and helped people, or else she would not have called it a "lack of faith" to go to the doctor.
Regarding Mary Baker Eddy, here is something interesting that I found from a Christian Scientist (so I don't know how accurate it is):
quote:Never did Mary Baker Eddy condemn a CS for going to see a doctor and even write in her works that if medical attention is sought out that there was no condemnation or being looked down upon."
--link
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on May 18, 2006) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3979
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 4:48 pm: | |
The point that is being missed, howeveróand this is the same point that used to bother during my Adventist days when I worked with Adventist Todayóis that in all the talk of Ellen being a product of her timeówhich she most definitely wasóthere is no attempt to deal with the fact that she wrote her advice with "I was shown" or similar phrases. Even if her "I was shown's" were typical of her day and of the charismatic, prophetic movement of the Burned Over District during her daysóand I've no doubt they were typicalóthis fact does not negate the reality that she led thousands of people down the garden path, so to speak, because they believed her.
She never backed down on her claims to Divine inspiration, and the church never backed down. One simply cannot claim that God gave false advice, even if it was advice typical of her times. The Biblical prophets were never excused as being products of their times. They were, rather, odd and often mocked, despised, ridiculedóand always RIGHT. God clearly gave His true prophets messages that were true and rich, and they usually bore no resemblance to the ideas or understandings of the day.
From a sociological standpoint, yesóEllen fits a recognizable, historically significant profile. From a spiritual perspective, however, her contributions cannot be smoothed away by cultural arguments.
A true Christ-follower is not shaped by the culture so much as by the Holy Spirit. True authority comes from the Holy Spirit. The culture may produce interesting cases, but we cannot excuse any of these cases from falsely claiming God's revelation.
Colleen |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1677
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 5:09 pm: | |
I think saying that she was a product of her times proves even more that she was not a true prophet, and Numbers was excellent on this when I heard him speak back in 1976. He was in no way defending her, because of the cultural times in which she lived.
Stan |
Lynne
Registered user
Username: Lynne
Post Number: 407
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 5:39 pm: | |
Colleen,
What you said above flew through my mind like the wind earlier in my busy day. Must have been the Holy Spirit.
As christians, if we were all following our culture now, what would we be doing? Is it okay to watch anything on tv or listen to any kind of music because that is what everyone does? Is it okay for us to live for money because that is what everyone is doing? We don't have to get married anymore, do we? And since 9/11, can't all of us Americans justify hating all Arabs now?
And yet in the 1800s, we had the underground railroad. What about those people, christians and churches that fed the hungry and protected the oppressed? Perhaps they didn't say anything shocking enough to get anyones attention. And what about the oppressed, above all, nevermind them.
Perhaps shocking statements now as in times past made by some people are only meant to be good PR.
Lynne
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