| Author | Message | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1671 Registered: 3-2005 |
I would like to present a very well researched article by Dr.'s Ronald and Janet Numbers regarding the complex personality of Ellen White. This is the first time I remember seeing this research, and it is presented in a revised version of the excellent book by Ron Numbers entitled "Prophetess of Health". Dirk Anderson's web site presents this article at this link www.ellenwhite.org/egw33.htm This is very credible evidence of why Ellen acted as she did. There was a theory about her head injury causing partial complex siezures, but there were too many inconsistencies to accept this theory. This excerpt from this book explains why that theory probably doesn't hold water. "A more convincing diagnosis, which not only accounts for many of her physical and psychological symptoms but acknowledges the importance of social and cultural factors, is what mental health experts today call somatization disorder with an accompanying histrionic personality style." Numbers effectively presents this case. There is so much here that explains her unhealthy attitude toward sexual relations, and her pre-occupation with masturbation. Ellen would have prolonged periods of depression, and then these would be followed by times when she would experience hypergraphia where she would write for long periods at a time. I think she had evidence of manic-depressive illness. This excerpt doesn't address my theory, as I will have to do more research into that area. But this excerpt is very good. There can be legitimate natural explanations for certain behaviors that don't always have to be associated with Satan worship or demon possession. Numbers does an excellent job in showing how this personality disorder would explain Ellen's plagiarism, and how she would justify it. See what you think. I would appreciate your thoughts. As a physician, I am very interested now in this aspect of Ellen White. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1673 Registered: 3-2005 |
I understand that Ron and Janet Numbers (I think she is a psychiatrist) presented the above findings on Ellen White to a national Psychiatric meeting. Apparently, an SDA psychiarist publicly stood up, and said that if this person presented to my office with these symptoms, I would come to the same conclusions--BUT--because the patient is Ellen White, I could not do it. So there is where that Psychiatrists objectivity ended. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1282 Registered: 10-2004  |
Stan, Since you wanted opinions, I'll give mine. 
First, I don't see how this totally fits EGW, as she certainly did give "hard facts" in response. Second, I don't see how this article "excuses" EGW or makes her "innocent"--and certainly no more than it does Charles Darwin or Mary Baker Eddy. If it did excuse them, then we as Christians should not be "attacking" Darwin for his plagiarism, if it wasn't his fault--or maybe he was saved even though he did not believe the true gospel. Or maybe Mary Baker Eddy was a Christian woman, and can not be held responsible for her deception. I really can't see that there would have been any "outrage" if I had posted similar statements about Mary Baker Eddy as I did about EGW. I think it's also important to note that Ron Numbers is an agnostic, so he would not be a source for spiritual information about EGW. Anyway, I think I'll stick with what God's Word says about both women. By the way, I don't believe that there is any mental illness that can make someone exalt Satan in their writings or write blasphemy. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 18, 2006) | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 214 Registered: 7-2005  |
I'm scratching my head: if I'm not a psychiatrist, how can I give a correct and competent diagnosis? Suppose I'm evaluating somebody whim whom I meet every day, and see him every day, and he is really a mentally derranged. But because I'm not trained in this field, I will easily interpret the symptoms as having another cause. My opinion has almost no value, it's the experts domain. In this way it's almost impossible to disagree with the experts opinion. So I must acknowledge the fact that they are probably right and evauate this situation beginning with the assumpsion that the experts opinion is probably the correct evaluation. In this case, I can only ask myself a question: IF I will be the devil, what kind of persons I will choose to posses? If I must choose some type of person to be my instrument, what kind of person will fit properly my goal? Somebody with a healthful mind or somebody mentally ill, somebody with a brain not functioning at the normal capacity? What person will be more easily to control? An ignorant or an informed person? Full mental capacity or partial capacity? Somebody weak or somebody strong? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1286 Registered: 10-2004 |
Well, Jackob, James White's assessment of his own wife was that "the very devil comes in and takes possession of her." (http://www.ellenwhite.org/canright/can12.htm) Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 18, 2006) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3978 Registered: 12-2003  |
In the book "Defeating Dark Angels" by Charles Kraft, a professor at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, he discusses the very real phenomenon of demonic oppressionówhich does not mean demonic possession. Again, I emphasize that by saying there was spiritual involvement in Ellen White's visions/dreams/pronouncements, I am not saying she was necessarily demon possessed. Kraft observes that harrassing spirits find easy access to people in the areas of their minds and emotions where there is unresolved guilt, anger, abuse, wounding, etc. He compares it to rats at a garbage dump. Rats, he points out, do not hang out in places that are kept clean. Similarly, demonic harrassment is not uncommon in the parts of people's psyches where they bear the unhealed wounds of past events and traumas. Missionaries who go to countries such as India from the United States often come back saying that they believe there is much more demonic activity in the USA than they had at first believed. It often masquerades as mental illness. I believe Ellen White undoubtedly had a serious psychiatric condition that would carry an identifiable name if she were to be tested today. Yet I also know from experiences with people who have been in my life that often diagnoses are more related to trauma than chemistry as the primary cause. Bipolar disorder, for example, is acknowledged to occur in two basic types: one specifically treatable by medication, the other less precise and tends to respond better to addressing trauma than to medications. There are all types of psychiatric disorders which can spring from trauma, including many variations of dissociation, some fairly mild to very severe. We all have areas in our experiences where we are prone to temptation and self-destructive responses. Satan capitalizes on these, and if we learn that we can manipulate and control people and situations by means of our emotional baggage, it's not hard to let our underlying desire for self-indulgence become our mode of operating. We can essily give power to Satan in our unexamined "places" if we desire our own agenda more than Christ. Further, no unaware, unfocussed person who wasn't enjoying his/her power would come up with such a complete, seamless "theology" that interweaves its various beliefs into a compelling whole. We absolutely can't discount the spiritual component of Ellen's life. And as Melissa said a few days ago, if something is not of God, is it then neutral? There are only two places in the universe: the "domain of darkness" and the "kingdom of [God's] beloved Son" (Col 1:13). If something clearly did not come from the kingdom of the Son, it has to belong to darkness. Just as all of us are born into the domain of darkness, a false prophet is operating in the domain of darkness. Further, there were just too many specific details that pumped up the importance of Satan in Ellen's writings to negate the idea of spirit involvementóand these things were not the crazy babblings of insanity. They were subtle and carefully woven into the theology in general. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1678 Registered: 3-2005 |
I agree that even thought it does appear that she had a personality disorder, and maybe was bipolar, still does not excuse the way she acted. People with mental illness still are responsible for there actions. Many of these people are highly functional, and she was very capable of formulating her theological beliefs. However, this is why I have problems judging Ellen with regard to her salvation. I am uncomfortable diagnosing any patient without actually seeing the patient. A lot of this is speculation. Stan | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 37 Registered: 2-2006  |
I found the article very interesting and thought provoking. It explains a lot about Ellen's behavior. I'm not so sure I understand why all her many followers were so eager to jump on the bandwagon. Maybe it was just the lack of understanding at that point in history regarding mental illness, and naive and/or uneducated people who were so impressed by what they saw... they decided it had to be something supernatural. Jeremy, in reference to your quote: "By the way, I don't believe that there is any mental illness that can make someone exalt Satan in their writings or write blasphemy." I'm not very familiar with Ellen's writings. Could you, without overwhelming me with too much detail, elaborate a bit on things that she wrote that might fit into this category? Thanks, Joyce | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1287 Registered: 10-2004 |
Joyce, There are so many things, I don't know where to begin, and I'll probably not think of everything I could mention. First, there is her teaching about Satan being the Scapegoat of Leviticus 16 and that he atones for the sins of the righteous, and specific quotes which give him glory with regard to that. Also, that teaching itself makes Satan and Christ interchangeable--since the two goats in Leviticus 16 were identical and interchangeable (they had to cast lots to determine which one would be sacrificed and which one would be the scapegoat). Also, the Scapegoat had to be without spot or blemish (representing absolute purity and sinlessness). In short, to say that the Scapegoat represents Satan is blaspheming Jesus Christ and exalting Satan. The only other church which teaches that Satan is the Scapegoat is the Church of Satan. Then she says that Satan was one step lower than Christ, that he was next to Christ, and that Christ was next to God. In other words, according to the language she employs, Christ was no closer to "God" than Satan was to Christ. Also, she uses the same term ("highest of all angels") at different times in her writings to refer to both Satan and Christ. Apparently, according to EGW, Satan had the position which Christ had had before being "exalted" to the "Godhead." And both being angels as she taught, they would basically be "spirit brothers" as Mormonism teaches. She says that Satan repented with tears and God would not accept him back and tries to make her readers feel sorry for Satan. As former SDA Pastor Jeffrey Helsius said in the July/August 2004 issue of Proclamation! magazine, it sounds like EGW is Satan's defense attorney! Also, her teaching about the Great Controversy and Jesus being in a "duel" with Satan places them on equal ground (see the picture on a recent cover of the SDA magazine Signs of the Times near the bottom of this site to see this equality pictured: http://www.pinkoski.com/files/index.php?id=26). The teaching that Michael the Archangel is Jesus makes Jesus and Satan equals, since Revelation 12 talks about Michael going to war with Satan, and Jude also presents Michael and Satan as equals. Here is an excellent quote from a sermon by Pastor Chuck Smith, that I came across awhile back:
Her Great Controversy teaching also teaches that Satan's false charges put God in jeopardy and that we have to vindicate/save God from Satan's charges. I'm sure there are many more examples, but there are several for everyone's consideration. I mainly dealt with ways that she exalts Satan in her writings, in this post--as for her writing blasphemy, that would be on basically every page she wrote. Just pick up a book and open it and you will probably find blasphemous teaching. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 18, 2006) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1679 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen, In that book you cited by Charles Kraft, does he cite scriptural evidence for some of those statements? I am troubled by the conclusion that "harrassing spirits find easy access to areas of the mind where there is unresolved guilt, anger, abuse, etc..." Is he speaking about Christians? Or is he speaking of the unsaved? Because, I don't know of anywhere in the Bible that I would find any evidence for his claims. I have trouble always assigning these types of things to demonic oppression. In Adventism, Christ and Satan were put on equal planes (that would be an example where Ellen may be guilty of exalting Satan), so, I think, sometimes we tend to give satan too much credit, for a lot of things that just come out of the weakness of the flesh. Galatians 5:19 says "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions..." well you get the idea. Paul is not specifically assigning all these things to demonic harrassment in this text. But maybe there are Biblical examples of demonic harrassment, but I have a significant question about Charles Kraft's statements as having Biblical foundation. There are all kinds of ministries out there calling themselves Deliverance ministries, that claim to deliver Christians from every form of demonic oppression, and I am just skeptical as to the validity of a lot of this. Back to my statement about judging Ellen White, the difficulty I have vs judging Mary Eddy, Joseph Smith etc. and comparing Ellen White to them is at least a legitimate question as to what Ellen really believed. It is obvious that Smith and Eddy are false prophets because they denied the eternal deity of Christ. It is not clear to me what Ellen believed. I know we have had endless discussions about Ellen's theology, but I am unconvinced about what she believed. If she really was an Arian, and/or believed Christ had a sinful nature--which she stated--but she also can be quoted as to believing the opposite, then it would be clear. This is what Walter Martin wrestled with and he concluded that she was regenerate. That is why I am cautious about her. Joyce, I agree that the article is quite compelling, and knowing it was well received on a peer reviewed level adds credibility. However, the spiritual dimension of the results of what Ellen's life and legacy left, is not addressed by the scientific community. The way the church used Ellen and her writings is unexcusable. It was a ministry of fear and guilt, and manipulation. Praise God to be free of all that now! Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1680 Registered: 3-2005 |
Just as a slight counterbalance to Jeremy (smiley), I have to admit that despite the theological flaws in "Desire of Ages", I have to say, I recently read parts of that book, and I was actually blessed! Don't stone me for heresy (smiley) Even though it was copied from many other sources, I know of several people who genuinely came to know the Lord by reading that book. So, apparently, Christ must have been exalted at least some. There is one quote from page 785 where she inadvertently gives the best reason for Sunday worship--where she describes in detail that Christ rising from the dead was the fulfillment of the feast of Firstfruits. That of course happened on a Sunday according to Lev. 23. On page 786 you find this quote: "To the believer, Christ is the resurrection and the life. In our Savior, the life that was lost through sin is restored; for he has life in Himself to quicken whom He will. He is invested with the right to give immortality". (Shades of Reformed theology there). But again, we will be far better off reading from the original sources such as Alfred Edersheim, and other great evangelical writers, whom Ellen did copy, but God still used this book for His own purposes to bring at least a few to Himself. Stan | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 39 Registered: 2-2006 |
Thanks, Jeremy, for the info, Your quote: --"She says that Satan repented with tears and God would not accept him back"::-- is very interesting to me. I have never heard this. Do you happen to know offhand where I could read it? (I have the works of EGW on CD, but have only scanned through a small amount of them). Quote--"The teaching that Michael the Archangel is Jesus makes Jesus and Satan equals, since Revelation 12 talks about Michael going to war with Satan"-- I remember the story of Michael fighting the dragon, and I recall recently having heard something about Michael and Jesus being considered the same, but I don't recall learning it in the SDA church. I would imagine that is to be found in the "Great Controversy?" I made it about halfway through that and had to stop. It was really kind of messing with my mind. Quote--"Her Great Controversy teaching also teaches that Satan's false charges put God in jeopardy and that we have to vindicate/save God from Satan's charges."--I do recall something along these lines, the idea that God had to defend himself to the universe, and that the ultimate victory of Christ over Satan would be that vindication. How is this different from "conventional" Christian teaching? I would also like to know more about what you call "blasphemous teachings." Any particular book you would recommend to look for these? I'm intrigued... much of the criticism I've read of EGW and SDAism are things that I, too, have dismissed as irrelevant or useless for my life. However, I think there are a good many things that may be strictly "Ellen-isms" that I'm not even aware of, and that I might consider to be part of Christianity in general. I may have to break down and read some more of her writings after all, although I can only read a very small bit at a time and then I have to put it down and go clear my mind for, oh, six months or so! Thanks for your answers, Joyce | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 40 Registered: 2-2006 |
Oops! I think I may have just found the answers to all the questions in my previous post. I just checked out the "Proclamation" link and it seems to be discussing some of the very things that Jeremy mentioned. Joyce | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 134 Registered: 2-2006 |
Colleen, I beg to differ with you concerning Bi-polar.I know quite a lot about it, studied it extensively out of dire life necessity, and have lived (and loved) with persons who have it. My deceased husband, his siblings and my son were and are Bi-polar (ranging between all the degrees possible of it; there are several degrees and manifestations, depending on the individual). With the recent research (past 10 years and continuing) and extensive brain-imaging (new findings almost each month), they now know that all forms of Bi-polar are a brain chemical imbalance disorder--a broken organ in the body, like a pancreas stops working correctly in a Diabetic. There is only one cause of Bi-polar; and it may or may not be inherited. With a little research and Googling, one can research this for themselves. Any doc, who tells you differently is out-dated and has not kept up. (I have met a few, while I dealt with my son's medical care. Thankfully, there are current psychs out there, who are excellent neuropsycschiatrists) Also, I believe, as you do, Colleen, a spiritual area and bondage is involved with EGW and Adventism, as well; plus the influence from the men around her, when she was so young; and problems from her head injury, which such can cause life-long troubles and disabilities in a person's normal cognitive processing and rational functioning. There are already EGW sites explaining how this can be. We've all, probably, read them. As far as EGW, personally, I think she fits Narcissitic Personality Disorder more than Bi-polar; and so does the Adventist organization in general (going by their actions), imho. I have seen, personally, in some of my extensive SDA family, that Adventism is a ripe breeding ground for several disorders, including OCD and severe Anxiety Disorders, Panic Disorders, besides, observing some individual's Personality Disorders (from childhood abuse) worsen because of conservative Adventism. Adventism can do and/or increase great mental and emotional harm, along with the spirtitual (of course, it is all connected togther within us). Read at some Googled links on NPD and what one read fits, imho, and will amaze one. Especially, the blaming anyone but themselves, not taking personal responsiblilty, paranoia, being the 'hero'/Special in some super, irrational way, and the way everything and everyone centers/revolves around them to an extreme degree, especially, if crossed; and how much attention they crave. Lack of empathy is the NPD's largest indicator of all, besids thier belief that they are 'special', more so than ordinary people. Bi-polars have empathy, Stan, except when their lack of impulse control overpowers them in the manic and/or dysphoria phase. Sometimes, in the depressive phase, they have too much empathy for their own good (depends on the individual). It's an extremely lethal disorder. I never read nor heard of, even once, (I may be wrong) of Ellen despairing to suicide, although she had her 'down' and sad times. Most Bi-polars kill themselves; stastically very few survive, eventually. I cannot see it, how EGW fits this disorder, which I know like my own self; having lived with them and handled it--and kept sane-- for over 20 years. I have speculated in these mental health areas, myself, about EGW. But how can we help, nurture and be catalysts for healing and comforting in grieving and struggles to those in Adventism and those coming out, who struggle with these disorders, right now? OCD, anxiety, irrational perfectionism, etc..? It is real and upfront for me, as I watch my family, and they are not even 'out'. I could care less about Ellen, anymore; only her victims. I received freedom; they are still in mental and emotional, anxious bondage. I don't mean to disparage you, Stan, for bringing this up. I don't mind that you began this thread because it might make someone think about her wrongs (and she does carry some guilt, imho). Just saying my own personal (only) thoughts for whatever they are worth. In Christ, Cathy | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 540 Registered: 7-2004  |
Stan, thanks for starting an excellent discussion. I am not sure that I can accept a medical/psychological explanation of Ellen's work. But I can't 100% discount it either. And that tiniest sliver of doubt is enough for me to withhold any thoughts of judging Ellen White's salvation. That is in no way defending any of her writings. Jeremy's points about what she wrote are very true, the only question is why she wrote these falsehoods. But I'm not sure which description is less appealing, following the writings of a neurotic plagarist or following the carefully crafted deceptions of a false prophet. If I recall correctly, somatization disorder wouldn't explain auditory and visual hallucinations. So if we were to view her condition from a strictly psychiatric standpoint, she either lied about her "visions" as ways of drawing attention to herself or it would seem that she also had to have an underlying psychotic condition as well. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1682 Registered: 3-2005 |
Points well taken Cathy and Ric. Ellen was a complex individual, and her life has been studied from hundreds of angles. It is great to be freed from the bondage of the religious system she represented. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3981 Registered: 12-2003 |
Stan, Satan does attack believers. Ephesians 6:10-18 is clear that we fight rulers, authorities, and powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly realms. We are instructed to put on armor that protects us in profound ways. The first piece is truthóand it's a belt, protecting the center of our body. It's the core, initial protection. Second, righteousnessóa breastplate which protects our hearts. Third, the shoes of the gospel of peaceówe are free to move among anyone with confidence andn authority when we have the gospel. Fourth, the shield of faith with which we extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one (yes, the evil one directly attacks Christ-followers, and if we lower our shields, we are attackedóbut not lost). Fifth, the helmet of salvation. The certainty of salvation protects our minds, our cognitive thinking. Sixth, we take up the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God. All these thingsóplus praying in the Spiritóprotect us from the "devil's schemes" and the day of evil. If our armor is not securely attached, the evil one can and will attack us in all these places of our being. We know from the story of Job that Satan directly attacks and harrasses believers. Further, Paul was given a thorn in his flesh to keep him from becoming conceited after seeing the inexpressible things he observed in heaven. This throrn, he said was not from Godóalthough it was God's tool in his lifeóbut it was "a messenger of Satan, to torment me." God would not remove it, saying instead that His strength was made perfect in weakness. (2 Cor 12) Jesus also told Peter regarding his and the disciples' immediate future, "Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. but I have prayed for you, Simon that your failth may not fail." (Luke 22:31-32) Satan clearly was planning direct attacks on the apostles, but Jesus prayed for their faith to be strong. He did not pray that the attacks would not happen. Truth is what frees us and strengthens us to withstand Satan's personal and direct attacks. When we allow Jesus to shine the light of truth into the secrets and wounded places of our lives, He strengthens us in those places of emotional vulnerability. We can be saved but still have closed-off places inside that we don't want to think about or acknowledge. As long as we don't allow Jesus to enter those places and bring us His healing, those places are vulnerable to Satan's deceptions and harrassment. Active faith (that shield in Ephesians 6) is what protects us from these attacks. But our faith is limited as long as we allow our weaknesses to continue to operate because we fear feeling the pain and experiencing the discipline of acknowledging truth. Jesus heals those places, but we have to be willing to admit we have those places, and we have to allow Jesus to shine the light into them. Some people appear to be believers. The clean up their lives and renounce the evil that has controlled them. If, though, they do not actively replace the evil which has controlled them with the Holy Spirit, more evil spirits will come to them. Matthew 12:43-45 tells the parable of an evil spirit coming out of a man and being unable to find a replacement "place" to live. So it goes back to the first host and find his heart swept clean, orderly, but unoccupied. That evil spirit gets seven more, and they all inhabit the man. The end of this man is worse than that of the first. IOW, yes, demons can and do harrass Christ-followers and also people who appear to be cleaning up their livesóand this can be possession. Our obligation is to be sure that we don't just renounce known sin. We are asked to submit ourselves to the Shepherd and overseer of our souls and allow Him to replace the evil in our lives with His Spirit. Only being inhabited by Him prevents future possession. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1683 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen, I wasn't saying that Satan does not attack believers. I was asking a specific question about Charles Kraft's thesis that their are demons attacking specific areas of the brain that have to do with anger, guilt, etc. That is what I was asking. I am not minimizing spiritual warfare as such that Ephesians 6 talks about. There is a difference between those scriptures and then the statements of Charles kraft that appear to go beyond what scripture actually teaches. I am just saying that there is a tendency to blame the devil for everything, when lots of times it is our own sinful natures as Paul clearly states in Galatians 5: 19ff. Here is a link that I think draws a balance between the two. www.answers.org/bookreviews/spiritual_warfare_lit_rev.html Hank Hanegraaf has also warned against books like Neil T. Anderson's on spiritual warfare, where he claims that a Christian can actually be controlled by demons. This area is controversial, but I think some authors go beyond what scripture actually teaches. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1685 Registered: 3-2005 |
Just a few additional comments I want to add to my last post. Again, I don't want to be understood as minimizing the power of Satan. He is real, and He would like us to minimize Him. I may be reacting some to my SDA upbringing, where Ellen White seemed to emphasize the power of Satan more than the power of Christ. That Great Controversy theme of the battle between Christ and Satan was constantly punded into me. When I read the epistles in the New Testament, the overwhelming emphasis is on the power of Christ. The more we contemplate the glories of Christ, the more the devil will be defeated. I just can't find the Biblical support to attribute most of mental illness to demonic oppression. However, there is no doubt that a significant amount of it could certainly be. There are Deliverance Ministries out there who seem to be concentrating more on Satan than on Christ. They will assign a demon to every work of the flesh that Paul names in Gal. 5:19, yet Paul ascribes these as works of the flesh, not necessarily the devil. The ton of books out there that emphasize demonology seems to be in the same category as the controversy between Christ and Satan. Having said that, I did a web search on demonology on a lot of my favorite theological web sites, and you come up with surprisingly little. There is some excellent material on John Piper's web site that I would like to share. He does say that some mental illness is related to demonic oppression. He gives suggestions to his pastoral staff on how to deal with this problem at www.desiringgod.org//library/topics/leadership/minister_dont_know.html There is a terrific online book written by John Piper about savoring Jesus Christ, and concentrating on His glory that is the key to defeating Satan. If you scroll down on this pdf link to chapter nine, there is an excellent chapter on doing battle with Satan that is very Biblical, and I was truly blessed reading this this AM. www.desiringgod.org/media/pdf/books_bscp/bscp_2.pdf Enjoy! Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3983 Registered: 12-2003 |
I agree, Stan, that many Christians go beyond Biblical teaching, and that is dangerous. Focussing on demonic activity as opposed to the power of Christ and His completed defeat of Satan takes us on a dubious path. I don't mean to imply that harrassment equals "being controlled by demons". It does not. I know from personal experience that I am prone to deception, anxiety, obsessive/compulsive behaviors in the parts of my life where I haven't dealt with "stuff". The more I'm willing to know the truth about my life and experiences, including my own culpability, as well as knowing the truth about my circumstances and my past, the more I can invite Jesus to give me peace and victory over my anxiety. The difference in me since facing the reality of a spiritual component to the continually worsening chronic worry that used to dominate my life is impossible to explain. Being harrassed by demons does not equal being controlled by them. But they play parts in our obsessions and self-destructive habits. And why shouldn't they? We are born into the domain of darkness. That domain will try to keep us in bondage even after we accept Jesus' forgiveness and life. He HAS won the victory, but He continually asks us to look at ourselves and to give Him the places of confusion and denial and pain that we all have buried inside. As we allow Him to shine Truth into those dark places, the attacks and temptations of Satan lose their effectiveness. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3989 Registered: 12-2003 |
This afternoon while Richard and I were driving (well, make that Richard was driving and I was just awaking from a nice long nap in the front seat!) this text occurred to me: Ephesians 5:26-27. I realized that this text explains the reality of Satan hooking into us through our unresolved emotions. "And in your anger do not sin. Do not let the sun go down on your anger. Do not give the devil a foothold." Paul was admonishing believers, and he was telling them that if they harbored anger and did not resolve it, Satan would have access to their hearts and would work destructively there. True Christians can experience the harrassment and work of Satan in the areas of their lives they do not submit to God's discipline and healing. Colleen | ||
| Artman29 Registered user Username: Artman29 Post Number: 34 Registered: 4-2006 |
I agree with Cathy2 in regard to Ellen White and us thinking about what happened to her. I say, who cares? I've spent all my life being like a sponge, absorbing everything that she had to say and not for one second questioning it. She ruined my life and that is just a fact. Healing from this type of abuse does not necesarily mean that we need to have sympathy for her and what her writings have done to us. Andy PS. Some people are really hurting on this forum and have been really afected by EGW. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4000 Registered: 12-2003 |
Andy, I completely understand and empathize with you. I realize that there are MANY people who have suffered deeply because of Adventism and Ellen and all it represents, from its superficial piety to its dark, hidden abuses. The deception that has allowed it to continue, chameleon-like, is treacherous. Praise God He has called us out of that crazy-making environment and the cognitive dissonance of the less-rigid pockets of the religion. He is the God of truth, reality, freedom, forgiveness, and redemption. In Him is life and light. With prayers for you, Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2201 Registered: 11-2002 |
Not being a mental health professional I would give her a diagnosis of a simple word, 'nuts'. |
