| Author | Message | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 26 Registered: 4-2006  |
Tomorrow (Sunday) my Adventist friend and I will studie the doctrin of 1844, we will studie the book Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-Day Adventists by Dale Ratzlaff and some presentations made by the adventist team of evangelication. Please brothers and sisters pray for me and my friend that I will be protected by the Lord and that the holy spirit will show her the truth about adventismen and this doctrin in perticular. Have a nice day! | ||
| Jerry Registered user Username: Jerry Post Number: 491 Registered: 6-2002 |
I would like to offer a little factoid that may or may not be covered in the Dale Ratzlaff book you will be using. This statement has been placed in front of Adventists several times and has never been successfully countered by any argument. The response has generally been ìis SO!î or some similar approach. Fact: There is NO CASE in the Bible where a future event was prophesied with a time period stated as ìdaysî where the Bible confirms the fulfillment of that prophecy with the time period confirmed being the same except stated as ìyearsî instead of ìdays.î Related Fact: There are several cases where a future event was prophesied and confirmed in the Bible with the SAME denomination (future days become fulfilled days, future years become fulfilled years. E.g. Matthew 12:40) Numbers 14:34 does not prove the Adventist theory, it DISPROVES IT. The reference to ìdaysî was related to the PAST event of the spies searching the land. The prophesied future event (shall wander in the wilderness forty years ñ verse 33) is stated in YEARS. Several passages later in the Bible confirm that it was forty years not forty times 360 or any other pseudo-theological transformation. Ezekiel 4:6 is similar to Numbers 14:34 but the fulfillment is not clearly reported in the Bible. No commentary I have read has ever agreed with the theory that Ezekiel laid on his side for forty YEARS. There is a lot more to back this up, but I will leave this here for now. (Message edited by Jerry on May 20, 2006) | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 462 Registered: 7-2004  |
How about the fact that there has never been any prophecy (other than the supposed 1844 one) whose fulfillment has not been on earth! How can anyone verify it has been fulfilled when the fulfillment can't be seen on earth? Isn't that usually the point of prophecy, for people to be able to see its fulfillment and know that God has done what He said? | ||
| Insearchof Registered user Username: Insearchof Post Number: 66 Registered: 8-2005 |
Mwh, We will all be praying for you and for your friend. This doctrine is totally manufactured and without any Biblical foundation. As Jerry stated, there is absolutely NO reason to use years rather than days for Daniel 8:14. The text does not support it (unlike Numbers 14:34 and Ez 4:6 where the relation of days representing years is defined right in the text...also, those text refer to curses as a result of disobedience, not blessings). You might bring up the fact that no theologian or Biblical scholar has arrived at the same understanding of the 2300 day prophecy as the Adventists have. The SDA church needs to interpret that time period the way they have to justify their existence as a denomination. Raven brings up a point that I had not thought of before, but it makes a lot of sense. If the fulfillment of the prophecy takes place in heaven (where we cannot see it or verify it), how are we supposed to know it actually happened? Be strong and of good courage! If this doctrine can be shown to be un-Biblical to your friend, you have a good chance of making real progress in bringing this friend into the real truth of the Gospel. InSearchOf | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1294 Registered: 10-2004  |
Also, the text (Daniel 8:14) does not even say "days" (which would be yom in Hebrew), it says: "Till evening -- morning two thousand and three hundred" (Young's Literal Translation). Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3996 Registered: 12-2003  |
Great points; praying now, Mwh--let us know how it goes. Colleen | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 27 Registered: 4-2006 |
It went okay, we read two presentations that the adventist had made and afterwards the first chapter in Dale's book. When we had finished the study I gave her the oportunity to go with me to worship Jesus in a baptist church. That also worked out nicely, there is a couple in the church which also speaks rumanian. It would be great I think for her to talk with an ex-adventist from Rumania. Thanks for your suggestions/knowledge on the 1844 doctrin and for your prayers. I belive things are changing in her. Though I know that it will be a long walk for her. It would be great btw to have the book in Spanish, any of you know if it is being translated? Martin Willemoes Hansen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 219 Registered: 7-2005  |
Martin, I'm from Romania. If they are interested, Colleen has my permission to give you my e-mail adress and they can contact me. It's one inconvenient: I have a lot to learn, I'm still green, a baby in Christ. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3999 Registered: 12-2003 |
Mwh, could you email me? I'll respond with Jackob's address. Yes, Sabbath in Christ is available in Spanish as is Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventists. Further, we are now translating Proclamation into Spanish. The first issue from this year has been translated, but it hasn't been designed into the magazine yet. We're anticipating that in another month we'll have it online and also available by email. Richard has an unbelievable deadline and schedule at work this month, and he was just telling me the other day that he's glad we just finished the May/June Proclamation because he wouldn't have time to design it for the next several weeks. Email me at proclamation@gmail.com. You can order the Spanish books at www.LifeAssuranceMinistries.com. Colleen | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 28 Registered: 4-2006 |
I have looked all over the place at LAM to find the spanish versions of the books, but I cant seem to find them anywhere: http://www.ratzlaf.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi Jackob I will ask my friend today if she would like to speak with you. I realy hope she will. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4007 Registered: 12-2003 |
Mwh, email Dale Ratzlaff at Dale@ratzlaf.com. He will respond, and he has the books available. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2197 Registered: 11-2002 |
I never understood how come the SDA's take the words 'evenings and mornings' in that Daniel text to mean years but in the creation story they take each day of creation as a literal 24 hour period of time. I have asked several SDA's this question and the answer is that whevever the time period says 'days' is used in a prophecy it actualy meand years but when the word says 'day' or 'days' in a past tense way it means a literal 24 hour time period. Just don't make a hill of beans worth of sense to me. | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 453 Registered: 7-2000 |
The short answer, Susan2, is that their view of the inspiration of the Bible (thought inspiration) allows them to make the Bible say whatever they want it to say. Remember, with their view, the words aren't important---the thought is what counts. | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 30 Registered: 4-2006 |
Colleen I have emailed him a while ago, but I haven't heard from him yet. We will continue our studie next saturday. Please pray for this. I have been feeding her material about the CWB and she tells me that she is not okay with that bible, also I have shown her how much it is used in the US. I wonder when SDA are going to translate it to Spanish. Jackob, I've told her of the oportunity to speak with you. I will ask her again about this saturday. Hope she will pick it up. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4029 Registered: 12-2003 |
Praying now for your study, Mwh. Keep us posted! Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 230 Registered: 7-2005 |
Mwh, It's eliberating to wait after God's timings. Mwh, don't push her if she is not interested. God really is choosing the persons who are instrumental in opening our eyes to the gospel. jacob | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 35 Registered: 4-2006 |
Okay we studie yesterday .. but not the book by Dale Ratzlaf, she forgot to bring it with her, instead we studied hebrews, we used the study material found here: http://www.formeradventist.com/hebrews.html and made it through the first chapter. She is still not convinced that Jes™s is not Michael, she showed me a verse in Zechariah 3 .. 2 The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?" She thinks it is Jesus which says "The LORD rebuke you" I belive its an angel though. I was pretty tired and said I would investigate this a bit. She couldnt really explain why Miguel is refered to as a prince among others and she is going to investigate that. So I will read Zechariah today to get to know this book a bit more. Today at six we will start to studie the book by Dale Ratzlaf .. chapter 2. Keep on praying for her and I. Jesus lives and has all authority! | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 36 Registered: 4-2006 |
I've just read the chapter again and now it is clear to me that it is God, the Lord himself which rebukes Satan here, he swears by himself. Anyways found a great article on Jesus vs Michael: http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd21.htm | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1305 Registered: 10-2004 |
Mwh, The following is from a post of mine that I posted awhile back, regarding the Adventists' claim about Zechariah 3. I hope it will be helpful.
Young's Literal Translation can be accessed at http://www.biblegateway.com/ In an attempt to explain their heretical Michael doctrine, some Adventists are now saying that Jesus became an angel--like He became a man. So then He would be a God-angel-man rather than the God-man--in other words, a different Jesus. You might find this article about the SDA Michael doctrine helpful: http://www.macgregorministries.org/seventh_day_adventists/jesusismichael.html Jeremy | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 37 Registered: 4-2006 |
Talked a little bit more with my friend about this today. She is recognizing that it is God who rebukes the devil in Zechariah 3. And that Michael does not rebuke the devil in Jude. She then started a storie to explain why Michael did not rebuke the devil in Jude, something about that the time wasn't right or something like that .. I really did not understand what she was trying to tell me ... Anyways we are not studying Michael vs Christ but the 1844 doctrine and we have read the second chapter of Dales book today and she agree with the summary of this chapter. She did mention something about adventist being wrong in the beginning, but that it was only human. It seems like she agree that there was error in the beginning and I hope that will open her eyes of the falseness of EGW. We might meet tomorrow to study more, if not we will continue next week, we dont have a date set yet. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4059 Registered: 12-2003 |
Mwh, it is important for Adventists to hear that "progressive revelation" does not begin in error and become truth. Adventists explain that Ellen's (and Adventism's) progression from outright error to statements closer to truth are examples of "progressive revelation". By definition, however, revelation from God cannot begin in error. True progressive revelation begins with broad truth and becomes more specific, as in the Mosaic ceremonies giving shadows of salvation truth while Jesus ultimately gives us the complete revelation of truth. God cannot lie; progressive revelation from God cannot begin in error. Error does not come from God. If the church began in error, one must ask serious questions about the validity of that church's teachings. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2234 Registered: 11-2002 |
Colleen, I was taughht that the term 'progressive revelation' is used by the Adventists to justift their continuing the prostatent reformation that was begun by Martin Luther. When I took Christian history at the SDA school it ended with the apostles. Then took up again with Martin Luther. Ended again with Martin Luther and then took up and ended forever with The SDA's. |
