| Author | Message | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 541 Registered: 7-2004  |
Jackob, it is not one post nor one poster that sparked my decision. Please do not feel like you are chasing me away. I pray that you will have much strength as you complete your journey out of SDAism, and that God will quickly heal any Spiritual and emotional wounds that occur along the way. Perhaps the best way I can explain it is that my needs, interests, experiences and concerns aren't generally reflected in the contents of FAF lately. The prevailing tone of the board seems different than when I first joined, but perhaps what has changed is me. Either way I no longer find the same degree of blessing or support that I once did here. For many months I have tried to stay in order to provide support and/or blessings to others. But over the last month or so I feel further and further outside of this community. | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 15 Registered: 2-2006 |
Ric! I wish you wouldn't leave. I'm new here but I lurked for a quite awhile. I have appreciated your comments and the research and references that you have included. You have given your intellect and time to provide support AND blessings to me. I would be sad not to "hear your voice" here any longer. It's a selfish reason, but it's mine. Let's keep on searching! Pegg | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 92 Registered: 11-2005 |
Ric_b, Just wanted to say thanks for all of your great insights, encouragement, and uplifting posts that have helped me over the past months too. You've definitely been a blessing to me as well. Grace | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4003 Registered: 12-2003  |
Rick, you've been a great blessing to me as well. Thank you for all you contribute. Colleen | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 326 Registered: 5-2004 |
Ric, I always value your input and the knowledge you bring to the forum. I wish you would stay around...but like Pegg said, that would be my selfishness. I praise God that He is leading you and using you...wherever you may go. | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 177 Registered: 12-2004 |
Rick, I would also like you to know how much I have appreciated your voice on this forum. I share your concern that many threads here, have become theological soapboxes with too much inflammatory rhetoric. This has scared away many, who in the past, have come here for support, and to be spiritually uplifted. One of the reasons I left Adventism was I finally "got" the joy and beauty of what Paul was trying to tell the new believers in Romans, Galatians, Colossians, etc. I finally studied for myself. I finally started reading a diverse spectrum of Biblical commentators, great theologians, and thinkers. It all started to make sense, and it is wonderful. As I began to recognize the joy and freedom of Christianity, the fear and bondage that Adventism evoked fell away, the whole mindset of salvation by denomination-works-rule keeping disappeared. I left the Adventist church not because it was too hard, or I wanted a simple way out. I left the Adventist church because of the beauty, and simplicity of the plan of salvation. Adventism unnecessarily complicates that which is pure and simple. A gift is only a gift, if it is given freely, and unconditionally. This is what I have found in the Epistles of Paul. The clarity of the Gospel is undeniable, and it is not justification by faith + works. Any regrets about stepping away from Adventism? No, not one. Am I bitter or frustrated because my dear Adventist friends, and family do not understand. No, not at all. I have to leave it all in God's hands. If God can use me to share the Good News of Jesus, I am a willing vessel. This forum, by its mandate needs to be a place where we can speak freely about our hurts,our pain, and our spiritual trauma. It needs to continue to be a safe place where all are welcome and respected. Part of leaving a restrictive religious group is having to share with others who are, or have been through the same experience. This can be helpful, therapeutic and restorative. Another, and possibly equally important role this forum should play (and does most of the time) is it provides an opportunity to share the new found joy that only Jesus can bring, and to share what freedom from spiritual bondage means to us. This forum is not anti-SDA, it is anti-deception. It speaks to many topics that previously have been unchallenged by most of us and are still taboo to most SDA members. This forum, like each of us, strives for truth, clarity, integrity, honesty and sincerity all served up with a generous portions of love, respect, and understanding. If this type of decorum can be maintained, many will return here and again find a warm and safe place to share their hearts. Hopefully again, we can nurture each other through shared experience, and insightful dialogue. This is my prayer today, Randy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4008 Registered: 12-2003 |
Randy, I loved these sentences: "This forum is not anti-SDA, it is anti-deception. It speaks to many topics that previously have been unchallenged by most of us and are still taboo to most SDA members. " That is so true. Thank you for stating it so well. I pray that God will bless us all, the lurkers and the participators, and that He will continue to build fellowship among us and the ability to sharpen each other and to support each other. I pray He will protect all of our hearts AND minds in Christ Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 542 Registered: 7-2004 |
Randy, I will strongly re-consider leaving, if you or anyone else can show me how calling EGW a murderer is: supportive, spiritually uplifting, demonstrative of joy and beauty, related to the freedom of salvation, opposing legalism, beautiful, discussing any person's hurts, pain or Spiritual trauma, sharing what we have been through, helpful, therapeutic and restorative, demonstrative of striving for truth, clarity, integrity, honesty and sincerity, showing love, respect, and understanding, and/or most of all, useful for combatting the deceptions of SDAism! (Please excuse my blatant plagarism from your post.) | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 16 Registered: 2-2006 |
Ric! I hear your frustration! I actually don't like the tone either, and I got frustrated and left this thread until I saw your name on the board yesterday. I have to say that I was horrified by a quote from Testamonies (#2 pg 349) where she refused to pray for a person because he had hidden sin (I'm not even going to go there!). It's not murder, but it is bad. I can't say when I've been so upset and angry and sad. I say state your position when you feel compelled to do so, but don't stoop to arguing. If someone insists on arguing, just ignore them and go on a different thread. Say only happy things for awhile. I've seen you say so many grace filled things here. No one argues with grace! Whoever is arguing with you will get over it or go argue with someone who is willing to engage. That's what I think. I hope that you'll "strongly reconsider" because you can be a blessing and provide support to the rest of us. Thank you again for the time, effort and loving answers that you have given to me. Let's keep searching! Pegg | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1398 Registered: 7-2003 |
Ric, I don't think the vast majority would classify her as a murderer in the classical sense, but she is not benign either. A person who gives medical advice that people listen to can be held liable for their actions, at least in today's society. That's why all the talk shows have a disclaimer that this is not medical advice, but just meant for entertainment, please consult your own personal physician, blahblahblah. Clearly EGW gives advice about what to eat and medicine and even though the vast majority of adventists probably ignore her, does that mean she has no responsibility for those who listen? Has the church or her estate set her up as, at the very least, an "above average human teacher"? Is it not striving for truth to call her writings what they are? Is it not sincere and with integrity we would guide people away from her in general as being an unrealiable source of all kinds of advice and information? I could disagree about almost anything with B, but the minute I challenged a single thing "mrs. white" said, he would almost become violent in her defense. You would think I was challenging a personal member of his family or his own integrity by daring to question the legitimacy of anything she wrote. When referencing her "borrowing", he dismissed it as incidental and no different than any biblical writer did in his day. He judges the Bible's authors because of his view of EGW. I don't know how you combat the deceptions of adventism and leave Ellen intact. I don't have too many warm thoughts of her, her writings, her place within the religion, or the religion's leaders who support the lie. I really hope that doesn't sound overly simplistic, I think she was probably the final straw in things I rejected from adventism, but she is not an insignificant factor. There was a couple that was covered on this forum because their child died trying to follow ellen's dietary demands. It's not the one Dennis mentioned, but another one where they tried to say the baby just "failed to thrive" at 6 months of age. Ellen may not have put a gun in the parents hands, but she did put a weapon that was just as dangerous to that child. Fortunately, most adventists fail in following her advice, but if more people did, don't you think their might be more deaths? I agree the language has gotten harsh, but are you saying she is faultless in situations such as this where people are trying to be true to what their religion has said? Just maybe, to at least one person, identifying her as a murderer is correct. However indirect, she does seem at least partially liable for the death of more than one individual. Do we ignore that because it is distasteful or sounds intolerant? If she were alive today and doing the same thing, would she be prosecuted for her advice? I personally agree the terminology is rough. But I can't deny seeing truth to a degree in it as well. I hope that doesn't offend you. But I do hope no other parent particularly follows her advice to the detriment of their children's health. That is honest, showing love, respect, integrity, sincerity, helpful, etc. I wouldn't have said it as another has, but I'm not sure putting gentle words on it changes my view a whole lot. That is just my opinion, and it is not meant to incite, inflame or hurt anyone. It IS meant to protect others who might follow her advice, particularly when it comes to nutrition and children. I think she's dangerous there and I think people should be aware. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1695 Registered: 3-2005 |
Randy and Ric, Your posts have always been helpful and positive. We need voices of moderation like both of you have provided. However, I agree with both of you that there has been some very inflammatory rhetoric that has been stated many times on various threads. Some of it is very caustic, and in my opinion violates the spirit of Ephesians 4: 29-32 that is posted just before you click onto the forum. I am also reconsidering my further involvement on this forum. I will not be involved in any further arguments regarding Adventism's cult, (or Satanic cult) status, or discussions with regard to Ellen White, but I will participate in a more limited role in other discussions. I appreciate what this forum offers and will continue to pray for the forum and the ministry of Life Assurance. Stan | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 543 Registered: 7-2004 |
Melissa, Murder requires the intent to kill or to cause harm to another. Would you please demonstrate that EGW acted as she did with the intent to harm or kill others. | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 178 Registered: 12-2004 |
Rick, I concur with you and fully support your decision. I can only hope that at some point this forum will again be a safe place to invite friends and family who are questioning their beliefs, or who are curious about spiritual options. Like you, I can see nothing positive coming from needless and reckless bravado and posturing. (Blatant plagiarism? Nonsense! Any apparent similarities in our posts are obviously coincidental, and I'm sure any connection in thought, or idea, would be a subconscious manifestation of some previous original impression. From where I sit your choice of words, thoughts, phrases, format, and composition actually appear quite "inspired".) Peace, Randy | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 518 Registered: 1-2003  |
Randy, U said, "(Blatant plagiarism? Nonsense! Any apparent similarities in our posts are obviously coincidental, and I'm sure any connection in thought, or idea, would be a subconscious manifestation of some previous original impression. From where I sit your choice of words, thoughts, phrases, format, and composition actually appear quite "inspired".) " Are you going to get your tongue unstuck and out of your cheek? I doubt it.  Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 716 Registered: 4-2000  |
Lest we "white-wash" Ellen White's legacy, consider the following result of obeying her "inspired" counsel: "One time while we were in Australia, a brother who had been acting as a missionary in the islands, told mother of the sickness and death of his first-born son. He was seriously afflicted with malaria, and his father was advised to give him quinine, BUT IN VIEW OF THE COUNSEL IN THE TESTIMONIES TO AVOID THE USE OF QUININE HE REFUSED TO ADMINISTER IT, AND HIS SON DIED." (W. C. White letter, Sept. 10, 1935) | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 519 Registered: 1-2003 |
Ric and Randy, I've appreciated your comments here. I see you are in the minority ! ! ! Your comments have more weight than mine since you are Formers. I haven't graduated "out" yet so anything I say seems to be viewed with suspician in the discussions here when I've mentioned the spirit and attitude others see when they come looking for truth and understanding. It is just simpler for me to stay quiet and read threads selectively and stay out of the line of fire. If it was not for the friendships and email and chats I've enjoyed with some here I'd be gone. For those of you who have emailed me I want to say thanks for your encouragement. The past few weeks have been difficult. Annie has sabotaged things in her life. I've learned that she seems to do this regularly when things are going well. Almost like she doesn't deserve for good things to happen to her. I also had a tough time at our meeting this past Saturday after church. I felt very betrayed by some. It was not a betrayal by those in our small group who are meeting for prayer and study and who are the core for the public study. Instead it was a sense of great sadness as I saw a side of some in leadership I didn't expect to see. After the public meeting about 10 of us went up to a house in the moutains and spend time in prayer and fellowship until 1 a.m. It was a very intense time. Again thanks to the few of you who seem to "appear" with just the right word of encouragement in your emails. A quiet friend, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 179 Registered: 12-2004 |
Richard, I always appreciate your thoughtful spirit and your conciliatory voice. This weekend I had a chance to visit with a good friend and discuss a burden that he and I have been carrying for 25 years. Tragically, a mutual friend had died in an accident that he had felt responsible for. We were both there at the accident all those years ago, and my friend had never had any closer since this tragedy. It was a time for healing and reflection for both of us. It conjured up past experiences from those dangerous college summer jobs, and I again remembered it was just sheer fate that it wasn't me who was killed, but rather I was the last person to hear my friend Earl speak, and then a minute later hold his bleeding lifeless body in my arms as I screamed for help. That day is forever etched in our minds and we often wonder what might have been. Amazingly and rightly theology was not discussed this weekend other than our Christian bonds, and our blessed hope of seeing Earl again someday soon. It was a chance to re-bond with someone who was there and to renew a long neglected friendship. We didn't broach the changes in my spiritual life although I am sure he knows of them through family. He did say he enjoyed reading spiritual things, so I took the liberty of sharing my favorite commentaries on Romans 14, and several on Galatians by Micheal Andrus, an exceptional communicator at the Evangelical Free Church in Wichita. His presentations have spoken to me like no others have. Pray that they will been well received. Richard thank-you for listening to me tonight, and continue to share your heart. Even though I am formally out, my good adventist friends continue to be comfortable enough to put up with me. I am here if they have questions or need a hand. I no longer move pianos, 1 hernia is quite enough. Prayers for you and Annie, Randy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4010 Registered: 12-2003 |
Richard, I am so sorry about Annie and about the tension at your meeting. Praying for you and for her and for God's leading... I'm feeling at quite a loss here. We don't believe we should squelch your opinions or say we can't discuss our respective feelings about EGW and/or the Adventist church in general. But I appeal to everyone here: do you not see that Satan is actually having the effect he wants to have? Here we are, on a forum that has, for nearly seven years, carried a reputation for being safe and loving and supportive even when we disagree. Suddenly, we are at odds over Ellen White, of all things! How bizarre is that? We could arbitrarily say this subject can't be discussed, but we all know it must come up. We could arbitrarily squelch people who speak up with strong emotion on both sides of the discussionóbut where would that leave "safety"? This situation should demonstrate to all of us that Satan is alive and well and he does work on Christ-followers in the areas of their emotions and personal weaknesses. Neither Richard nor I have ever experienced a tension like this one on this forum in the pastóand we've had some pretty hair-raising crises before. But this is the first time we have had strong, committed Christ-followers turning on other Christ-followers, demanding and inflaming and judging and even insulting one another. We are both convinced that our struggle at this very point is not with each other. It's literally with spiritual forces of evil as per Ephesians 6. I am appealing to each one of you to allow the Holy Spirit to open your spiritual eyes and to see that we are literally giving Satan the power he wants. Our responsibility is to defer to one another, to be completely patient and gentle and to preserve the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. (Ephesians 4:1-4) Notice Paul never says we have to agree, but we must bear with each other. And frankly, the new testament clarifies that Christ-followers' first responsibilities are to their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Our job is not to get each other to see our way or to speak our way. Our job is to respect each other and to allow the other to own his/her own experience and perceptions. On this forum, our first responsibility is to those who are struggling with the effects of Adventismónot primarily to those who are still loyal to the church. God asks us to humble ourselves before Him and to submit to one another (Ephesians 5). God can take care of other people's feelings and words, and He can take care of this forum as well. As Christ-followers, though, our first priority should be to honor the Lord Jesus. If this forum is no longer a "safe place", we cannot place that blame all on one "side" or another. All of us must ask the Holy Spirit to inspire us and to guard our hearts and "tounges" before we post. I am praying the the Holy Spirit protect us from the spirit of divisiveness that wants to destroy the safety of this place. I am praying that He will guard our hearts and give us humility. I am praying that He will convict us to hold loosely all the knowledge and gifts that He has given us and that we will be willing to let go of the roles, beliefs, and "rights" we have in favor of knowing and doing His will. This issue is not about each other. It is about Satan attempting to destroy our witness of the gospel of the Lord Jesus by creating confllict and criticism between us. We cannot resolve our interpersonal differences if we are unwilling to surrender to Him our own cherished opinions. I pray He will help us to love each other not for the others' sakes nor for our own sakes, but for God. He is everything. Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 544 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, respectfully the issue is not over Ellen White. The issues is whether inflammatory, innaccurate, overblown statements have any benefit in our ministry to one another or in our witness to others. We are quick, and rightfully so, to point out the deceptive teachings of SDAism. But some of the rhetoric here is every bit as inaccurate and can not possibly have a redeeming value. From my perspective Satan is destroying any witness that we hope to have through the statements that are being allowed and it seems encouraged that are not about facts but simply ways to be more outrageous and inflammatory than the last post. This is not a witness to the joy that we have found in knowing God's grace. This is not a witness to our love for our SDA "neighbors." I have never suggested that we hold back facts because they might offend someone. I have said again and again that we need to be responsible in presenting these ideas accurately and in love. But that does not seem to be a popular idea right now on FAF. I love this board and think that it has a valuable ministry. But I am convinced that much of the power of that ministry is being destroyed by the inflammatory rhetoric. I have never challenged anyone's statements about the ways in which they have been personally impacted. I have never downplayed a person's experiences. And I have not suggested that anyone limit their discussion in these areas. IF the idea is to support one another in the struggles that accompany leaving SDAism we need to be able to safely and honestly discuss those struggles. The only "problem" that seemed to appear is that one or two of us actually spoke out about what we thought were unreasonable posts and a tone on the board that drives people away. Now it appears that we are the cause of division, of destroying the "safety" of this place, and of being unwilling to surrender our cherished opinions to God. I beg you to ask yourselves, if an avowed critic of SDAism who spends 20 of more hours nearly every week pointing out doctrinal problems with SDAism and preparing study materials for formers/transitioning SDAs is saying that recent comments are overly inflammatory and counter-productive, what is an SDA who is only starting the process of questioning their beliefs going to think of what they read. | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 180 Registered: 12-2004 |
Colleen, I sympathize with your frustrations and the challenges on maintaining a happy place when everybody doesn't want to play nice. You only thought you done your classroom management duties. This forum has a broad mandate by design. and thats good! Seekers to seek, teachers to teach, pastors to be pastoral. theologians to guide. All of the things said here should be listened to with thoughtful ears and then responded to it like manner. It has been my obsevation than the main problems in the adventist faith tend to fade away in significents when the purity of the NT Epistles doctrine is presented from the Bible. We must remember our job is to prepare the soil and plant the seed. Occasionally in appropriate circumstances a little fertilizer tossed on might be helpful but not alway. Ultimately growth comes the Son and watering from the Holy Spirit. Continued blessings on this forum as we continue to seek God's guidence, Randy |
