| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2209 Registered: 11-2002 |
The packet came to get my little granddaughter into Leeward Adventist Mission School. This school is located on the island of Oahu in the town of Wahiawa. On the inside of the front cover of the information packet in big letters it says, "SDA's Believe..." and here is a list of the 14 things SDA's believe. 1: In God the Father, Jesus and The Holy Spirit. 2: In salvation through Jesus Christ. 3: In the entire Bible as the inspired word of God. 4: That the personal, visable return of Jesus is near. 5: That man by nature is mortal, and eternal life is found only through Christ. 6: It is now judgement time and the Ten Commandments are the judgement standard. 7: That righteous comes by faith. 8: The Seventh-day Sabbath is the Lord's Day. 9: In support of the gosple through tithes and offerings. 10: In baptism by immersion. 11: In the ordinance of Humility and the Lord's Supper. 12: In the gifts of the Spirit, including the Spirit of Prophecy. and finilly 14: That followers of Jesus should manifest Christian modesty in dress, deportment and wordly amusements. The end. What does ya all think? Is that a place you'd want your precious little grandchild attending. Let's disect each of those 14 requirements as some are written in SDA code. #11 includes the footwashing part of the service. This part of the service is not required by the Bible. Jesus did not tell the apostles and anyone who read His instructions afterwards to do the footwashing. He said, "this is my blood given to you for the forgiveness of sins....This is my body shed for you....Do this in rememberence of me that your sins may be forgiven." #12 says the gifts of the Spirit and this includes the Spirit of Prophecy. Well, I have yet to hear a SDA expouse any gift of the Spirit except the Spirit of Prophecy and the term 'Spirit of Prophecy' begins and ends with Ellen White. To a non-SDA reading this as something SDA's believe the person would not know this statement means EGW. It is SDA code. #14 is interesting because I do not know what they are referring to in the word 'deportment'. I am hoping someone reading this can erxplain. Wordly entertainment? What does this refer to? Isn't everything invented by people considered wordly entertainment? Would this include zoos? Movies? How about not only going to a theater to watch a movie but watching movies at home on the video player? When I was a kid we were told we couldn't go to theaters but on Saturday nights at the school gym they'd have movie night. We were told not to go to bowling alleys but my granddaughter attends a SDA school and they have their annual father/daughter bowling ternament at a local bowling alley. This one is interesting to me because the SDA rules keep changing. When I was a child the no dancing rule ment no dancing, period, end of discussion. I have kin who are SDA ministers and their children are in dance classes. Actually even I was surprised when I heard that but I was told it was because the kids are little klutzzes and the parents want the children to learn grace. Whatever. It's still dance class in a dance studio run and owned by non-SDA's (ie: heathen). #6 says it is now judgement time and the criteria for judgement is the ten commandments. I'm not sure how to interpert this but I tend to think it is meaning that we are now under the Investigative Judgement. I would appriciate someone telling me if I am right in my cryptology of the SDA code here. #'s 9 and 10 are also interesting to try to figure out. Some discussion, please and also prayers as this is the achool where my little grandchild will probably be attending. Dennis, I would especially appriciate your imput on these criteria. | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 413 Registered: 10-2005 |
It would be nice to see the church non-deceptively say what they believe. I think this is what Jan Paulson has said in the past in the Adventist Review. If they up front say that the Judgment is now with regard to the Ten Commandments, I think they are a step closer to saying it like it is. I would also like them to tell everybody that Sunday Worship = Mark of the Beast. Then when they use the bible to back that up, they should have an EGW reference book as proof, that that really is what the bible says. That will give everyone, all the outsiders a much clearer picture, of what it means to be a Seventh-day Adventist. Lynne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4027 Registered: 12-2003  |
Susan, interesting list. I think your understanding is pretty accurate. It's certainly not a full disclosure; if any non-SDA Christian had a solid Biblical understanding, they might be wary upon reading about the judgment and the 10 Commandments and the ordinance of humility. If they didn't have a pretty solid NT foundation, however, they probably wouldn't pick up on the problems. Praying for your family, Susan... Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2211 Registered: 11-2002 |
What does the word 'deportment' mean in this list? Also, I just want to say that I did not paraphrase this list of 14 beliefs. I copied the list word for word exactially as they are printed. I only left out all the Bible texts after each belief that 'proove' they have it right. And, each of those 14 beliefs had a list of texts following the belief to give their Bibical proof. Colleen, when you get around to doing the dictionary of Christian termonology as mainstream Christians understand the words verses how the SDA's understand the words I think you can get some insight from this list. If you want the list for yourself I would guess you could get ahold of Leeward Adventist Mission Academy and ask to be sent the school handbook. from reading the handbook I will say with certanity that it is not the school I would pick for my granddaughter to attend. This is the same child who about a year ago when I pickerd her up from school one day I asked her in the car on the drive home to tell me what she learned at school that day. She told me (remember, she was then in first grade) she learned how to have visions. I asked her how to have a vision and she gazed heavenward, closed her eyes and pretended to be in a transe and had a vision that I was going to stop at Burger King on the way home. Believe me, I DID NOT stop at Burger King! Most of the drive home she had visions for me. She had visions about what she'd get for different special occassions and various other things. When I asked her to have a vision and tell me when Jesus was coming back she got real indignent and looked me stright in the eyes and said, "How should I know? Only God knows that." At that point I decided her visions on some things are more accurate than EGW's. I still wouldn't stop at Burger King though. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 465 Registered: 7-2004  |
Hi Susan, Deportment basically means behavior, or the way a person acts. Looks like the standard "short list" of SDA beliefs that requires even more reading between the lines. In regard to your questions about #9 and #10, I would say #9 means tithing in addition to offerings is a requirement. For #10 it means immersion is the only accepted method for baptism, the only one that counts. I'm glad you're back posting, Susan. I've wondered how you're doing. You might be interested to know that in about 2 weeks from now we'll officially be Lutherans (LCMS). | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4032 Registered: 12-2003 |
Raven, that's exciting! I'm so glad that you and Rick have found a church where you can be "at home" and contribute and grow. God is faithful! Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 466 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks, Colleen - we are excited! At first I was so afraid to commit to actual membership, because what if it's the wrong church? I'm sure many of us are familiar with that recording in the brain. But God has confirmed in our hearts over and over again that this is where we belong at this time. And every objection I came up with, I still felt at peace that this is our church home. And since it feels so much like our church home, it's natural to want to take the membership step. After being the one to insist for so many years that my church choice had to be the one for our family (as SDA's), I was really hesitant to make the decision this time around. I felt it was Rick's turn to decide. However, he felt since it would be really tough for me to switch to something else after growing up SDA, he'd leave it up to me. So we were both skirting the issue, trying to let the other be the first to decide. Finally we just discussed it and he told me if he didn't have us to consider, he'd definitely be a member. I found that funny, because I was thinking the same thing! So I'm relieved we're on the same page with this. | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 183 Registered: 12-2004 |
Raven, I am glad you have found a church community you are both comfortable with. I understand your reticence, and can relate to your apprehension. I do however find it incomprehensible that Rick could "skirt an issue". Like, no way. I want to thank-you both for your ministry on this forum, Randy | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 467 Registered: 7-2004 |
Yeah, I can see what you mean, Randy! Actually Rick is very patient and is always looking out for the wishes/needs of our family. And I didn't mean skirting the issue, I meant skirting announcing our decision with each other. I suppose it means practically the same thing. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1701 Registered: 3-2005 |
Raven (and Rick), I also want to affirm your choice of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod as being one of the most Biblical churches out there (next to ours--of course--smiley), and I am thankful for God's leading in your lives. Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2552 Registered: 3-2004  |
Ric and Raven, I am so glad you have found a church home. God is surely leading you. Praise God. He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 327 Registered: 5-2004 |
Raven & Ric, Congradulations on finding your church home! What an amazing blessing from God that He has lead you and prepared your hearts be "at home" again in that aspect of your lives  | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2214 Registered: 11-2002 |
Raven, I will send my home phone # to Colleen and my mailing address to her. I have some books that I've gotten from either Ausberg Publishing or Concordia Publishing that I could send to you. It is wonderful attending a church where one actually learns about Christian history and practices. Please, keep in touch. Now since this thread is called School I want to make some more comments about SDA schooling. My granddaughter just is finishing second grade. She brought home a bag with all her school stuff in in, including her "Bible" workbook. I went through this book. Page after page of William Miller stuff and Edson Harem stuff and of course the EGW stuff. It just blew my mind! Exercises in the workbook that go like this, "Pretend you were waiting for Jesus to come on Oct. 22, 1844 and after you waited all day and realized He wasn't coming, write a paragraph about how you'd feel." I know how I'd feel. I'd feel dooped and I'd go back to a regular Christian church. But, I wouldn't expect eight year olds to write that, certanily not after the teacher probably stands in front of the class and tells the children how sad and disapointed the people were and how blessed they were to have that guy go into his corn field and get a hullicanation about what really took place. And, the workbook had page after page about that fellow who was a sea captain and how he used his knowledge of astromony to know the truth. WOW! | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 468 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks, Susan. Sorry I changed the course of this thread a little, and glad you're getting it back on track. That doesn't surprise me that EGW stuff is being emphasized in your granddaughter's Bible classes. I think that's being pushed more now than it used to, with that carefully calculated effect of that sadness and disappointment, then turned to joy when God explained everything in a vision. They do their best to cast everything in the best possible light, to elicit maximum empathy. I know the scoop, because the last year we were still SDA's, a relative gave our kids the set of books about early SDA pioneers that's written to mimic the American Girls series of books. They read about the same as what you described. I think the SDA church is trying really hard to get kids at a young age to connect with the SDA beginnings, because they recognize it has become "lost" among the couple generations back. There's a whole set of teens and adults under age 40 who know next to nothing about EGW and have no interest. It looks to me like that is was the SDA church is trying to change, and I think I've even seen their statements to that effect, that they want to push EGW and get her books into every SDA home, etc. (Message edited by Raven on May 26, 2006) | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 184 Registered: 12-2004 |
Raven, You make a great point about many under forty not knowing, or not wanting to know about Ellen White and her influence on Adventism. Most of these people truly believe that they are sola scripture in their beliefs. My observation is that even among this group, all theological understanding, and their entire world view is influenced, or dare I say tainted, by Ellen White's theology. Her interpretation of Scripture is all we ever knew growing up. Who was to know that most of that stuff in The Great Controversy was contrived. I thought that was how everybody understood it. I am embarrassed to say that I never until recently even questioned the EGW world view. As EGW's writings are re-emphasized in the Adventist church, I think more of the thinking Adventists are going to recognize that a lot of her writings and interpretations are contrary to the Good News of the Gospel. They will realize that the SDA Church's emphasis on her work instead of the Bible is an attempt to control and manipulate the spiritually vulnerable and the theologically naive. This is NOT EGW bashing, but merely my observation of what I see. Peace to all tonight, Randy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4045 Registered: 12-2003 |
I think you're absolutely right, Raven and Randy. And I suspect the reutrn to Ellen will have a polarizing effect; I believe God is working even in this to awaken people to the cognitive dissonance and even craziness that creeps in with a conscious return to Ellen. It will be very interesting to see what happens. Colleen | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 236 Registered: 7-2005  |
I believe that this return to Ellen White is in some way connected with the arriving of the age of internet. I believe that the leaders of SDA church are alarmed because the information about the history of their church can be easily accessed on he internet. They must enforce the authority of Ellen White to prevent people exiting the church who has a history of many cover-ups. Also, they see that the authority of the Bible is insufficient to persuade their members to believe in the unbiblical doctrines of adventism. I suppose they need to change the people's focus from the Bible to Ellen White. Exposing people to the Bible alone seems to be dangerous for the church. They had tried for a time to put Ellen White away, educating people only from the Bible, but presenting in reality the view of Ellen White without mentioning the source. In this way many today really believe that they can sustain their beliefs with the Bible. This was my experience. I'm under 40 and remember how in our SS class we debated many things from the Bible without mentioning Ellen. Believing fully that my beliefs can be sustained only by the Bible I started a long journey, studying in depth the adventists beliefs. And this focus, on the Bible alone allowed me to see how incompatible is adventism with the gospel. If I had not believed in the principle Sola Scriptura, perhaps I'll believe all the adventism doctrines without doubt. Because of my focus on the Bible, I started to see things in another way. And now I'm an apostatate, and ruined my life (smile) If I want to keep my family in devotion to adventism, I'll promote Ellen White and the same time the principle of Sola Scriptura. I'll present Ellen White as the women who believed fully in this principle, and her writings are realiable because she believed this, more than other so-called protestants who changed word of God, the Sabbath, etc. etc . When my kids, or teenagers will encounter some contradiction between the writings of Ellen White and the New Testament gospel, I'll use the idea "Adventists are the only people who takes the principle Sola Scriptura seriously. We must take the whole Bible, not only the New Testament" I will try to make them give more importance to the OT, than NT. I'll say "NT writers used the OT writings to sustain their messages, let's go to OT" In this way I can make them both believe in Sola Scriptura and in Ellen White. My scholar adventist friend understands these things and makes people think that they believe in Sola Scriptura enforcing at the same time the extra-biblical authority of Ellen White. And he uses the methods described above. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2556 Registered: 3-2004 |
Raven and Randy, I agree with you also. I am of the older generation, a senior citizen in fact, and all my sda schooling included EGW. We did not have books about her, like they have now, but we learned about her, her head injury, that fact that she was unschooled and "wrote" so beautifully. On CARM I have to remind the younger folks that even though we both have an SDA education, mine was different. Individuals-pastors and lay people, churches my be changing, but the 28 fundamentals of the Adventist church are the same. EGW is still considered an "authoritation source of inspiration". So, let us continue to pray for all Adventists. Diana | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 186 Registered: 12-2004 |
Jackob, Your analysis is right on. The EGW interpretation of everything theological continues to be the foundation of most Adventist thought, irregardless of whether she is quoted directly or not. Until, she is layed aside completely and recognized as teaching a false or different gospel, Adventism will not, and cannot experience the freedom from bondage and the true manifestation of joy so readily available to those that accept God's gift of Grace as sufficent. Peace, Randy | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 469 Registered: 7-2004 |
That reminds me, when I was a first grader back in around 1970(?), our entire "Week of Prayer" was the various stories from early SDA history. We sat enthralled as one of the moms told us a daily story. The only one I specifically remember was the EGW injury, probably because it made quite an impression on me. I also recall how sincere this mom was and there was a sense of awe because these were as real and important as Bible stories. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2222 Registered: 11-2002 |
My granddaughters "Bible" workbook says a girl threw the rock that hit EGW in the head. I was taught it was a boy. What was it? Is it just an unfortunate error of the printers or is it now a jelous girl that threw the rock? Also, my mom is in her mid-80's. She does not read EGW books. Doesn't even have them in her house. Therefore she insists she is not influenced by EGW. However, she studies the Sabbath School quarterly daily and that thing is mostly EGW quotes and EGW interpertains and she reads the Review, the Recorder, the FFT stuff, the VOP stuff, the Quiet Hour stuff, all of Doug Batchlors stuff, you get the picture so I say one can be SDA and not ever open an EGW book and still be EGW totally influenced. Raven, would you like the books that I could send to you? Also, do any of you get the ABC ads? They are ads promoting book after book for every age and every type of interest of EGW and the SDA truth. Order one today from your nearest ABC and see for yourself. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 472 Registered: 7-2004 |
I was always taught it was a girl who threw the rock at EGW, and I'm pretty sure that's the way it's written in the 1950's book we used to have, written for kids on her life. There was even a drawn picture of the girl throwing the rock that I can still see in my mind. But I can't say the information is the same everywhere. Yes, we get the ABC ads--which we pretty much throw away without looking at them! Thanks for offering to send books, Susan. We have a lot of books and frequently buy more books. Maybe if I knew which ones you were referring to, then we could locally buy ones we'd like to have. That would be a bit of a hassle for you to mail me your books, and then you wouldn't have them. Thanks for thinking of us! | ||
| Insearchof Registered user Username: Insearchof Post Number: 74 Registered: 8-2005 |
I believe that Jakob has made a good observation in that, with the large amount of information available regarding EGW on the Internet, the SDA church has to 'circle the wagons' as it were. I mentioned to the pastor at the SDA church I attend that the SDA church was in for a tough ride the next few years because they could no longer bury all the questions/problems with EGW. Since most people can get the the Internet, it only takes an inquiring mind to see that there is a whole aspect of EGW that most don't know exists. With some (the 'true' believer), no amount of negative information will ever be enough to shake them from their belief in traditional Adventism. With others, they will give up their dependence on Ellen, but won't know what to do with the other doctrines (primarily the Sabbath and the State of the Dead), so they will just stay in the SDA church because they have nowhere else to go. InSearchOf | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4079 Registered: 12-2003 |
Raven, I also learned it was a little girl who threw the rock, and I also saw that picture (or at least one similar!). InSearchOf, you really make a good point about the Adventists who give up their dependence upon Ellen but don't know what to do with their other doctrines. They really don't understand how their other doctrines are completely linked to Ellen's teachings. So they stay, living with the cognitive dissonance because they are not taught that they can actually become free. While they abandon their dependence upon Ellen, they don't recognize her as a false prophet. That recognition is what unlocks the door to freedom and to seeing their hidden dependence upon her work. Whether or not they depend upon her, they are bound by her teaching unless they are able to see she was a false prophet. Colleen | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 383 Registered: 2-2001 |
The sabbath was a very hard one for me to give up. I was so ingrained that it was "the test". I have great empathy for thoses who struggle with it. The internet was where we started getting our information after the Holy Spirit gave us unrest. The great part was it was very organized and you could easily research areas of interest. It would of taken me much longer had I had to find all of this information on my own. The ironic thing is that the year before we left I had purchased the complete writing of White on CD at campmeeting. I was able to easily verify when someone said Ellen said this or Ellen said that. Her CD was part of her great downfall in my eyes. Easy access to compare and contrast her inconsistancies. V | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1314 Registered: 10-2004  |
I totally agree with you about the CD, Violet! It was very helpful in my rejection of EGW, also. It is very ironic. And if you put in certain phrases--you get a list of self-contradictions! I don't think the White Estate knew what they were doing! Jeremy |
