| Author | Message | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 712 Registered: 4-2000  |
"Let none feel at liberty to retain their tithe, to use according to their own judgment. THEY ARE NOT TO USE IT FOR AN EMERGENCY, nor apply it as they see fit, even in what they may regard as the Lord's work." (Testimonies, Vol. 9, page 247) "Many, oh, so many, among believers have SCARCELY FOOD ENOUGH TO EAT, YET IN THEIR DEEP POVERTY THEY BRING THEIR TITHES AND OFFERINGS TO THE LORD'S TREASURY...THEY HAVE WILLINGLY ENDURED HARDSHIPS AND PRIVATION...Their prayers and their alms come up as a memorial before God." (Selected Messages, Vol. 2, page 212) PROLOGUE: Perhaps some of you still remember the international news reports about a tragic SDA tithing incident that took place in a small Pennsylvania town about eigthteen years ago. In preparation for recounting this story, I have recently consulted a retired General Conference official, who was in office during that time to make sure my details are as accurate as possible. Despite my persistent efforts, I was unable to find someone who remembered or who was willing to divulge the name of this family. I suppose the exact names of the people involved is not of paramount importance anyway. God knows all the persons involved--including the religionists who gave the tithing advice to this family. Of course, the following story was never reported by the Adventist Review nor included in the many tithing storybooks available at Adventist Book Centers worldwide. So, grab a kleenex and take a deep breath. Here's the true story: A theology graduate from Union College accepted a call to intern in the Minnesota Conference. For reasons not made known, this young pastor and his family soon left the ministry for secular employment in Pennsylvania. However, they did not leave the SDA ministry due to theological reasons. In fact, they continued being very devout tithers through the regular SDA channels. With less than steady income, however, this family found themselves in dire circumstances. Eventually, with dwindling groceries in their modest kitchen cupboards, they still claimed the Old Covenant promises found in Malachi 3:10. Their food supply went from very little to nothing. Amid this turmoil, they kept their home very tidy as though nothing was seriously inadequate. Their ten-year-old son soon lost significant weight. Yes, you guessed right, their young son tragically died from starvation. They never asked any neighbors for help because they expected the "windows of heaven" to pour out a blessing to them. Adults can much better endure the onslaught and pain of hunger than children can. When the police arrived to investigate this tragic death, they looked around and found about $3,000.00 in one cupboard. As far as this devout tithing couple was concerned, the money in the cupboard was not available to them nor belonged to them in any way. It was strictly reserved for the SDA hierarchy to use as their policies dictated. After all, Ellen White made it very clear that tithe funds could not be used "for an emergency." Because they didn't live near their local SDA church, they attended infrequently to save on transportation costs. Consequently, with irregular church attendance, their tithe had accumulated to three thousand dollars. I don't recall the exact details, but the father may have lost his job and suffered from reduced income for quite some time. Obviously, these tithe funds were carefully reserved from far better economic times in their past. After the police investigated and reported this incident, the switchboard at the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists lit up like Christmas tree. This was indeed another embarassing and challenging moment for the GC Communication Department personnel to spin a negative news account into something not far from wonderful. An amazing feat in this case! I understand that the court and child protective authorities permanently removed their daughter from their home. The punishment for the parents I could not fully obtain either. Some thought they were released from prison into the custody of some entity and were on probation. All in all, who is REALLY responsible for the death of this little boy? You decide! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1288 Registered: 10-2004  |
Wow, Dennis! All I can say is, Ellen fully deserves the punishment she is receiving (Galatians 1:8-9, 2 Peter 2:1, 9). As God's Word says, Let her be ANATHEMA! She is certainly one of "those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation" (Jude 1:4). Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 19, 2006) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3988 Registered: 12-2003  |
Dennis, what a story! Thank you for sharing it. One of the issues I believe this story underscores is a kind of "magical thinking" many of us were taught to entertain. If we "do what's right" and ask God for help, he'll take care of everything miraculously, and we'll just fall into step behind Him. I have discovered that often when I prayed for God's intervention, I expected Him to unliaterally DO SOMETHING so I would know what to do. In retropsect I've discovered that God often did answer me by bringing clear senses of concern and of something "not being right", but instead of believing these clear insights were God's work in me, I ignored them because God didn't step in and do what I thought He would do. Same with this family. They HAD the money, and their child was dying. Yet they expected God to DO SOMETHING dramatic and preserve that tithe. They missed God's clear provision. Sigh. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1687 Registered: 3-2005 |
I've got my kleenex out Dennis. Thanks for that inspiring story! Tithing is not unique to Adventists. For every story like that posted above, there are many Christians who have been blessed in spite of the fact they choose to honor God by giving the first tenth of their income to God. I have even seen some inspiring stories by former Adventists who post on this forum, that they have been blessed when they tithe. Do I believe that tithing is a New Covenant practice? No, I do not. But I respect those who believe differently than I do. It is not heretical to pay tithe! I know of many great saints of the faith who believe in tithing. I highly respect the ministries of D.James Kennedy, and R.C. Sproul and Robert Morey. These men do believe that tithing is for today. So, to be consistent, what do you say about these men, Dennis? Stan | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 713 Registered: 4-2000 |
Stan, Adventists do not corner the market on legalism. It is rampant everywhere. How do I view the tithing stance of Kennedy, Sproul, Morey, Pope Benedict XVI, Mormons, and many others? Unbiblical! | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 216 Registered: 7-2005  |
Many years ago I saw a movie , and you can read about it here and I'll will qote from somebody commnets about it. It was a movie based on a true story and the person speaks about the true story
And the guy who tells the real story said that after watching the movie he became to feel sympathy for the parents. Personally the movie was appealing to me because it was so familiar with what I read in Ellen White about not going to doctors, or using medicine. The parents cut their boy's insulin because they learned at the church that the healing is totally in God's hands, and it is a lack of faith to use other measures than faith. Fully believing this, they cut their son's insuline, and, even if the pastor counsel them not to do this, they did it anyway. They stick with their belief because they wrongfully believe that this is what the bible teaches. In the case of the adventists parents, the parents fully believed that God himself showed Ellen White (many times she stated this) that the tithe could not be used in a case of emergency. They believe that Ellen White had a direct pipeline with God, which was what she pretended her entire life. To contradict her, for a truly follower of Ellen White, for one who takes seriously his belief in her gift, is equal to contradict God. I believe those parents were more afraid to rob God of His tithe than afraid of killing their son. This is the crucial difference between those who respect Ellen White and those who respect evangelicals like Kennedy, Sproul, Morey. They are not afraid to disagree with them, because these people don't pretend to have a direct pipleine with God. But to disagree Ellen White is equal to disagree with God. Practically Ellen White put herself and her authority in the place of God. She presented herself as the voice of God. Whoever contradicts her is doing this with great pain and with the terrible fear of contradicting God. This is her legacy, and this is the legacy of all cults. "Don't dare to disagree with the Watchtower, we are the direct pipeline to God". | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1289 Registered: 10-2004 |
Jackob, not only would it be contradicting God to disobey the Law of Ellen, but it would be willful sin and would mean going to hell. Speaking of the Watchtower, there is a very interesting article at watchthetower.com which can be accessed here. Here is a quote from it:
Would any of us say that the Watchtower is not responsible for murdering this boy? Some of you may remember this news story about an SDA couple who were convicted of manslaughter when their baby died of vitamin B12 deficiency:
Of course, Ellen claimed to speak for God and they had to believe her statements, including what she claimed in the following quote:
And then the GC has the gall to try to say that the parents were "wrenching" EGW's statements out of context! And their news story obviously contradicts EGW with regard to vitamin B12, as they urge people to supplement with B12. Oh, that's nice--so what about before B12 supplements were available? The vegans just had to die following EGW's "rays of light direct from the throne of God"! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 20, 2006) | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 89 Registered: 11-2005 |
Oh, my heart breaks over stories like this. My receptionist, who is a sort-of former Jehovah Witness (more so a former out of rebellion than actually seeking truth, so she still feels a sense of "rightness" about JW), was pregnant with her second child about a year ago. Prior to her delivery, she went to great lengths to write up a legal statement, that in case anything happened medically where she would need a blood transfusion, that she would not recieve one because of her beliefs. And, because her husband is not a JW, she signed over all of her medical decision making rights to her parents (who are very strict JWs). I was stunned, because she isn't a practicing JW, nor does she even like what JW's are about. But yet, when it came down to a fundamental belief that would potentially put her life in jeopardy, she chose to put faith in her beliefs. When I asked her if this action was based on conviction or fear, she simply answered, "Not conviction or fear, but just in case they're right [JW], I don't want to do the wrong thing." Not out of fear, huh? As an Adventist, faith was always such a nebulous, undefineable superstitious thing. Having faith brought about good things, whereas lacking faith brought about severe consequences. So the action or response of faith was very much like Colleen stated, a magical thing. While growing up, the measure of faith was emphasized. It always seemed to be more about quantity. If we only had the faith of a mustard seed... As a newbie former, I find my faith shifting to more of an idea of "quality". I know that sounds so cliche, but I can't think of a better way to describe it. To quantify it never made sense to me. I always felt I was lacking in it, or think, "If I only had more..." What does tons of faith feel like? Will I know when I've finally arrived in having "great faith"? Now, truthfully, I still know I'm lacking in faith. My flesh tends towards doubt; that's just the way my mind works, and it's something I continue to struggle with and have to submit to God daily. But, my idea or type of faith has changed, not as a result of these huge and miraculous things (although I feel God does intervene in those ways), but as a result of the small but CONSISTENT ways that God lets me know of His constant presence in and around me. Like I said, the quality of faith has become so much more real of a definition than the quantity. I can't really explain it, but basically it's less of a superstitious on/off thing, and more of a daily how I live thing. Oswald Chambers, in My Utmost For His Highest (May 8) says, "Faith is not some weak and pitiful emotion, but is strong and vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. And even though you cannot see Him right now and cannot understand what He is doing, you know Him. Disaster occurs in your life when you lack the mental composure that comes from establishing yourself on the eternal truth that God is holy love. Faith is the supreme effort of your life--throwing yourself with abandon and total confidence upon God. God ventured His all in Jesus Christ to save us, and now He wants us to venture our all with total abandoned confidence in Him. There are areas in our lives where that faith has not worked in us as yet--places still untouched by the life of God. There were none of those places in Jesus Christ's life, and there are to be none in ours. Jesus prayed, "This is eternal life, that they may know You..." (John 17:3). The real meaning of eternal life is a life that can face anything it has to face without wavering. If we will take this view, life will become one great romance--a glorious opportunity of seeing wonderful things all the time. God is disciplining us to get us into this central place of power." The part about life becoming one great romance, and seeing wonderful things all the time, describes that quality of faith I was trying to describe. And the most encouraging thing is that God is disciplining us so that we can grow in that type of faith. It's awesome!! I know this is kind of off the subject, but it kind of relates  . There's a big difference between faith as an Adventist and faith now. Grace | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1688 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dennis, I just re-read your story again. It is indeed tragic. But, I am not sure advice about tithing was at the root of the problem. I would like to know more of the details of this. Clearly there were deep-rooted psychological issues (that were no doubt aggravated by the horrendous church leadership whom I would never defend), but I doubt there are many cases like this. Jackob, That story of the insulin of course did not involve an SDA family. It reveals what happens when you put faith behind phony faith healers, just like the SDA couple put their faith behind bad tithing advice. I remember one thread on here awhile back when this issue of tithing came up, that several former SDAs testified that God did pour out a blessing when they tithed. I think it is a matter of what your heart attitude towards God is. If you really are treating Him like a big Santa Claus who will reward you, if you do good and pay tithe, then I doubt that will be honored. But, there are too many stories I have heard of true Christians with a heart toward God, that even though their theology was wrong, that somehow God really honored that. Along a similar vein, there is a car dealership in So Cal owned by Christians, who were convicted to honor the Lord's Day by closing on Sunday--their busiest day! Guess what happened. There success sky-rocketed. I am sure it wasn't because they were legalistic about Sunday, but thought it would honor God to go to church and be with family on that day. There are just some situations where God honors those with a heart of faith, even though their theology might not be perfect. But, I am not defending the SDA church's serious misuse of tithe funds to promote a false gospel. And, while I am at it. I will put my first report of listening to various SDA sermons here as well. Today I listened on the radio to the May 13 service of the La Sierra church pastored by Dan Smith, but an assistant "pastor" or "pastorette" named Jeanine Little gave a twenty minute "sermon" that was the most watered down bunch of nothing I have ever heard. There was no Gospel. The name of Jesus Christ was not mentioned once. There was a nice platitude at the end, where she closed the sermon by stating a hope to be in heaven. Then there was applause by the audience, and that was the end. This represents the liberal Adventism where there is no gospel. This is similar to other non-gospels preached in other so-called Christian churches. This La Sierra church tragically is leading a whole generation of students down a totally wrong path. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1689 Registered: 3-2005 |
Grace, I just saw your post. That is well said, and thanks for that Oswald Chambers quote. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1290 Registered: 10-2004 |
So if your baby dies, "then the Creator made a mistake"! I can see how the parents had full confidence that their baby would not die. But they were still convicted of manslaughter--for following a false prophet. Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1291 Registered: 10-2004 |
Stan, Your comments remind me of when I listened to the LDS General Conference session several years ago on the radio (Mormonism is big around here). There were testimonies of how God miraculously blessed for tithing to Him. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 20, 2006) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1691 Registered: 3-2005 |
Yes, Jeremy. I think that is an example of what Reformed theologians such as Wayne Grudem call common grace. This is the grace that is shed on all men at times, not just the elect. But, I don't want to discount the faith stories I have heard from some of my Christian brothers and sisters who pay tithe. Stan Stan | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 409 Registered: 10-2005 |
Jackob, You are absolutely right. The Adventist church does put Ellen White as equal with the scriptures. And the deceptive part of the Adventist church is that they try to downplay Ellen to outsiders. That is what Walter Martin questioned. And just because they have come up with the right answers for outsiders, it doesn't make Ellen any less important than any other group that puts a leader at the same level as scripture. Those groups are called cults. The Adventist church is craftier. It is meant to fool Christians, outsiders and even those within the group. You lack any armor as a Christian, you are unprotected from the enemy. The "in" I can really see that the Seventh-day Adventist church has now with Christians is the fact that many Christians don't understand the New Covenant regarding the Sabbath. That is what I've been hearing in this forum. That is as important in Ephesians 6, knowing the Word of God (it isn't rocket science), as it is having the Helmet of Salvation. We must pray and help others, to build them in Armor, long time Christians and new Christians alike, regardless of denominational affiliation, so that they will not be deceived, and hurt like many of us. It is not about denomination, it is about believers in Christ. Since we have experience in knowing what armor is needed, we can see certain things that our fellow believers might be lacking and consequently, we can prayerfully help suit them or show them where they might be missing armor. Again, we can build up believers, regardless of denominational affiliation. Regardless of whether they are Baptist, Catholic, Pentecostal, Adventist... It is a war and believers need others to build strength for themselves and collectively we need each other as a body. And I don't think the body should be separated by denominational affiliation. There are even people who believe in God that are Mormon, JW and non Christians. It doesn't matter. That is why many grace based churches start with preaching Jesus as our salvation. If we know we are saved we can start with our helmet, our minds. But it is when Christians stop there and don't take up the rest of the armor, or just don't know any better, that a Christian WILL BE attacked by the enemy. What child is safe without a protective parent? That is an innocent childs armor. Without the full Armor of God, many of our fellow believers are becoming casualties, falling from grace. Right or wrong, who cares? Are we willing to lay down our lives for our fellow soldiers? There is a very real spiritual war going on against believers. The enemy has been defeated through Christ, now we must choose which side to be on. No war is won when soldiers wage war against each other. That is the spirit of the enemy, not the Spirit we Christians are called to follow. Psalm 18:2 The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. Lynne | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 714 Registered: 4-2000 |
Some people get blessed real easy (e.g., the devout Mormons claim the writings of Joseph Smith have been such a wonderful blessing to them). If the Adventist tithers are experiencing such wonderul, miraculous protection, as their many stories claim, then why do SDA farmers continue to spend big bucks to insure their crops? Why do SDA city-dwellers insure their homes when paid for? If they really believe in the old covenant promises in Malachi 3:10 and 11, then the GC insurance company (GenCon) should disappear from the Adventist scene. SDA tithing is supposed to provide insurance--part of the package of benefits. If in doubt, just ask Doug Bachelor. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 217 Registered: 7-2005 |
Stan, Of course those people were not adventists. And to honor God by tithing, or by keeping a day is not something bad in itself, as long as this is not a condition for salvation. Ellen's position on tithe was more than bad advice. It was a "Thus says the Lord", God speaking through testimonies (Ellen WHite's writings) as in ancient days He was speaking through the prophets. Her words were commands, thundering from the Mount Sinai. That the leadership promoted her writings is also a real fact. But they are not to be blamed for her writings. They don't forced her to write what she wrote. They don't put a gun on her head saying "Write this or..." They can use her writings because she wrote them. She, not they, wrote that the tithe cannot be used in an emergency case. If they promoted a strong case for tithing in any condition, she gave them this authority. She loved the money and died as a rich woman with a personal nurse, a luxury which few people could afford in those days. All money obtained in the name of the Lord. Lynne, reading your post I suddenly realized why many christians don't evaluate the adventist church correctly, even respected leaders of evangelical world. Not seeing clearly the New Covenant, their entire evaluation of SDA church is also unclear. As you said, their armor is not well prepared for the deception of adventism. Ambiguity in New Covenant understanding leads inevitably to ambiguity in seeing the anti-gospel position of adventism. My adventists friends are surprised that I bought the old arguments against the sabbath. But they don't know that these arguments, or these texts are placed in the context of New Covenant. The context is different, and the context of the New Covenant is not the dominant view in the evangelical world. It's not a surprise that many in the evangelical world don't see clearly the real face of adventism. This is why I believe that the contribution of former adventists is so important. They can minister better to adventists because they have a better understanding of the New Covenant than the usual perspective found in the evangelical world. And consequently they have a better understanding of adventism than the evangelical world. | ||
| Insearchof Registered user Username: Insearchof Post Number: 69 Registered: 8-2005 |
I vaguely remember that news item regarding the family with tithe money in the house while they allowed thier son to starve to death. I will agree with you that there is no NT mandate to return a tithe. That said, there is nothing wrong with returning a tithe if one is so convicted. There are many, many instances of God's blessing on tithe-payers, just as there are many instances of God's blessing on those that do not pay tithe. I think it has to do with common grace in many cases. I have noticed, however, that whenever there is an appeal for sacrificial giving all the examples of 'God's blessing' are related to what I call a 'return on investment'. For example: 'we started returning an honest tithe almost a year to the day that our house was damaged in a tornado. The insurance repairs were almost the exact amount that we had paid in tithe! We were able to sell our house and make a $50,000 profit!'. You know what I mean. What I also find interesting about the SDA church and tithing is that (from what I can tell after 30+ years in the SDA church) is that related to other Christian groups, SDAs rank near the top in money given to the church per capita, yet their churches are not growing as a general rule. They have the money, but not the Holy Spirit. InSearchOf | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 410 Registered: 10-2005 |
I think that they must spend a lot of tithe money on Ellen White literature and marketing. Lynne | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1396 Registered: 7-2003 |
I think God honors what we give to him, regardless of misunderstandings on tithe. I tend to think people are blessed because God chooses and people are "not" blessed for some purpose we do not see, not necessarily because they are "bad" Christians, etc. Of course, I have to see things this way given my daughter. I can say as a single mom, there are many times I didn't come close to the 10% giving and yet as time has passed, my income has increased anyway, and now I give more than 10%. If one has to give 10% as some say to get God's blessings at least financially, I don't fit that mold at all. For better than 7 years I didn't give at that rate, and some years I gave extremely little, yet here I am able to give more than that rate. It would seem some pastors don't want to hear that kind of testimony. My pastor says we are to give from our abundance and that if we can't buy necessities (which he does not include cable or the newspaper in that ), then he doesn't think God would expect us to starve our families for the church. But he always says follow the leading of God as he may choose to grow some people's faith by giving even the tiniest bit. But that's not 10% necessarily. To me, churches that are heavy handed in that way are out of balance spiritually and could be trying to do their own thing in God's name, because God always provides for his purposes without guilting or brow-beating people to give. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 715 Registered: 4-2000 |
Here is a shoeless tithing story that didn't make it into the "miracle books" at the Adventist Book Center: An Adventist businessman shared with me, with a tinge of indignation after some fifty years, an experience of growing up in a southern Colorado SDA home. Summertime in the southern Colorado countryside can get quite warm and uncomfortable. His devout, SDA parents claimed that they could not afford shoes for him for a whole summer. It was a most unpleasant experience for him to be shoeless all summer with cacti and other brier being common in the area. Admittedly, his parents were very poor, and they loved him very much. His parents actually felt really bad about him having to go shoeless for months. For example, I know of a local backyard gardener who quickly lost his thumb due to serious infection caused by a thorn prick from a rose bush. Indeed, thorns and thistles are often not harmless plants as part of the terrain for active, shoeless boys. So why was this businessman still upset over his "shoeless" boyhood experience? Remember, this was over fifty years ago, so shoes didn't cost as much as today. Of course, family incomes were far less in those days as well. Living out in the country, his parents couldn't afford to attend the SDA church every week due to transportation costs. Life was really hard for them to just stay alive. However, his parents were devout tithers, and amid all his shoelessness, he was fully aware that they had $300.00 for tithe in a kitchen cupboard awaiting transport to the Seventh-day Adventist church. Somehow, I was left with the impression that this SDA businessman may not be a faithful tither today. Dennis Fischer |
