| Author | Message | ||
| Pegg Registered user Username: Pegg Post Number: 13 Registered: 2-2006 |
This verse is well loved. Read it again, and rejoice! Romans 5:20-21 (NLT) "...But as people sinned more and more, God's wonderful kindness became more abundant. So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them death, now God's wonderful kindness rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." I like the note in my Life Application Study Bible: "As a sinner, separated from God, you see his law from below, as a ladder to be climbed to get to God. Perhaps you have repeatedly tried to climb it, only to fall to the ground every time you have advanced one or two rungs. Or perhaps the sheer height of the ladder seems so overwhelming that you have never even started up. In either case, what relief you should feel to see Jesus offering with open arms to lift you above the ladder of the law, to take you directly to God! Once Jesus lifts you into God's presence, you are free to obey -- out of love, not necessity, and through God's power, not your own. You know that if you stumble you will not fall back to the ground. Instead, you will be caught and held in Christ''s loving arms. Let's keep searching! Pegg | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 47 Registered: 2-2006  |
Yes indeed, what a wonderful thing it was for me to realize that God is infinite Love, that I cannot be separated from God, and that I do not have to work my way up the ladder. It has changed my life! Joyce | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 245 Registered: 6-2005 |
Thanks for the verse Pegg! Righteousness TRUMPS wickedness! Joyce, if the infinite Love of God has changed your life, wait till you get the full benefit of the trinity! 1. God is love manifest! God is love declared. It blows our minds away, the BIGNESS of God, His Sovereign design regarding everything. 2. Add Jesus to the picture, and experience a demonstration of Love in action. Experience the heart of God toward us. Enjoy a picture of the life we could have if we accept the gift of God coming TO us, in human form, in an unfathomable offer of Grace and Love, to draw us unto Himself. The UNCREATED GOD, coming in mere limited human form--in human FLESH no less, to a degenerate body and a fallen decaying world. That is the ulimate SHOW ME!. Infinite Love and Life and Light, comes to Infinite rebellion, darkness and death, and He REDEEMS us though substitution and atonement on the cross. Part three, the promised Holy Spirit, which Jesus Himself told the disciples was even a BETTER experience that knowing of GOD and being in the presence of Jesus Christ. See John 16:7. Here's why the promised Holy Spirit completes the picture of God and His great love for us. The trinity is indeed 3 in 1. A mystery we cannot comprehend fully at this time, but certainly not without the Holy Spirit: I Corinthians 2:6- 6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but NOT the wisdom OF THIS AGE, or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God DESTINED for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would NOT HAVE CRUCIFIED THE LORD OF GLORY. 9However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"[a]ó 10but God HAS revealed it to us BY HIS SPIRIT. The Spirit searches all things, even the DEEP things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God EXCEPT the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, THAT WE MAY UNDERSTAND what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by HUMAN wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[b] 14The man WITHOUT the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he CANNOT understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. So, for me anyway, God as God: infinite Love, Holiness, Righteousness, GOD as Jesus: "Show me" redeem me love. God as Holy Spirit: Experience Me fully Love in the now, in every fiber of my being, in power and experience and a taste of the restoration to come. Amazing. For me, The fullness of infinite Love is exponential when the TRINITY, the 3 in 1, is experienced. Thants my prayer for you. That you sit at the banqueting table, and eat the full course, and experience His banner over us which is Love! Lori | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4006 Registered: 12-2003  |
Lori, what an inspiring and reassuring post. Thank you! Colleen | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 48 Registered: 2-2006 |
Quote:" ....if the infinite Love of God has changed your life, wait till you get the full benefit of the trinity!" Thank you, but since God is all there is, and God is One God ("Hear Oh Israel, the Lord thy God is one God.."), I'm pretty sure that I AM experiencing the fullness of God, at least as much as I, at this point am able to experience. I know that there is much more to learn, and many interesting roads to travel as I continue on my spiritual journey, but I know that this journey is mine and mine alone. I know that I can ask no one, and count on no one to seek it for me. That is my job, and I eagerly look forward to it. We all seek God in our own way, and that is as it should be. I appreciate all the concern and friendliness extended to me here on this forum, despite our major theological differences. But I believe my presence has been an unwelcome disruption to a group of believers who are really not comfortable discussing some of my ideas. I understand that. Truthfully, I feel the same way about some of your beliefs, as I'm afraid I've made clear in a rather forceful way on occasion. I know that everyone means well and it's certainly no one's fault here, but I really haven't found the kind of dialogue that I was seeking. I've learned some things by talking to others who share my background, and I have been able to begin resolving many of the bad feelings I had toward the SDA church. That is a major step forward and I do attribute it in great part to my having the chance to hear the stories of others who experienced pain, anger, shame and hopelessness as a result of being taught the SDA/fundamentalist Christian teachings. So I thank everyone who has been so tolerant of me and what must have seemed to be rather "far-out" views. But I know it's best for me to move on. I plan to go straight to 'Headquarters' and ask God in the only way I know how---by making this very public declaration of my intentions---to guide me into what God would certainly know better than anyone is for my higher good. Best Wishes, Joyce Williams | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 246 Registered: 6-2005 |
Oh Joyce, I hope you dont leave, if everyone leaves with different thoughts and beliefs, we will be right back where we were as SDA's....with only certain "allowable" questions and discussions. I wrote you with a spirit of excitement, in sharing the infinitite Love of God that you are experiencing. Im blown away by it. I agree God is One God, and lately Ive experienced even more, the mystery of the trinity. (3 in One) I dont "get it" theologically, only experientially, and just sharing my experience, and wanting everyone to have it! Read some of my early posts, and you will see I enjoy a challenge of engaging people in discussions, learning from others. (I admit, I havent read all of yours). Ive pretty much left "organized religion", for now anyway, in pursuit of God. If you dont stay here, feel free to email me. Im not offended in the least. I'd like to hear what you get from "Headquaters". Lori 4excape@bellsouth.net | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4011 Registered: 12-2003 |
Joyce, I have enjoyed your questions and reponses, and I'll miss you, too, if you leave. I do hope you don't leave permanentlyóI have no doubt God is dealing with you as He is with me and all of us. I, too, would like to hear what you learn. God is greater than any of us can knowóand I am confident that we can trust Him with our healing and our futures. I'm glad you've been here... Colleen | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 49 Registered: 2-2006 |
Never fear, Javagirl, I will NEVER live a life which allows "only certain "allowable" questions and discussions." That is the main reason I do not feel comfortable here--because conservative and traditional Christianity is the only "official", acceptable stance for those here. Anything else is dismissed as "wrong". I am not wrong. My way may not be suited to many folks here, they may even disagree with me vehemently, but I am not wrong. Not for me. I have struggled for many years to get where I am. I will never embrace "one way" the way the Adventists and many others do. I will continue to find my own way as I have done all along, with the help of whichever teachers or books or organizations that I can find any relevancy in. No, I don't "swallow hook, line and sinker" every word I hear at my own church, nor any book I read, nor anything I hear a person say. I evaluate and decide for myself: 'what do I think of this?' That is how I am developing my own spiritual path. I decided some time ago--no more restrictions for me. That is the one thing I won't allow. No one will restrict my thinking, and I will allow no one to impose a burden of guilt on me for not choosing their 'one true way'. No accusations or condemnation of anyone here, but the Christian way just carries with it too much of a negative and burdensome definition of humanity for my way of thinking. I have chosen to become more positive in my thinking and that has made all the difference. But God is still God. And if we only allow ourselves outside our little boxes, we begin to realize just how expansive God really is. Thanks again, Joyce | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 135 Registered: 2-2006 |
Dear Joyce, I've so much appreciated your honesty and raw courage to share your feelings. Your courage has given me courage, today. You have been gracious and humble, at times, which I always respect in any person. I can tell you have integrity, which is becoming more rare in this society. I can relate to much of what you have written, too. A lot of what you believe, right now, I used to. I've been down many spiritual roads; how can I judge yours;where you are at on your own? God was with me on each one while I found 'home'. I am like Lori, too, in that the experiential love, connecting with God--not talking about him-- just bursts out of us at times, once we truly know the reality of him. The posts are not, necessarily, directed at any individual; only expressing joy in God-Christ. I have 'heard' that in some of your posts, too...in your continuing journey into God, which only he can time and lead for you; not me, not us. We all have been and are down that road--journey-- after Adventism. None of us have 'arrived', especialy, me. I must tell myself, a lot, lately, "I know nothing", then wait for God to teach me directly of himself, not a set of doctrines, which will not 'save', transform, transcend, nor heal me. Only God directly with me does that (And, of course, I believe in the cross, in case anyone else thinks I've apostasized. Please, assume nothing, without asking. Please, lovingly, with listening, ask people; then allow them their opinions and beliefs, as you desire yours to be allowed and expressed. It would solve some of the troubles. SDA's are always 'right'; are we? Ok, sermon over, with love.  ). I am glad to have read you here and wish you would stay, but only if that is what is best for you and your spiritual healing. If not, then you should go where God leads you. He will answer that for you; I know, he does for me. Always has done, wherever I was, for that time. When it was time to move forward, he let me know for dead sure, then. For everything a purpose and a season for our growth into him. I don't post much here, anymore, myself--only lurking, again-- for some of your own reasons. Fear of theological arguement and attack (although, mild compared to other forums), which I have neither the time or energy for; or as Richard pointed out, treated as irrelevant on here (which some of us get too much of from SDA famly, friends and churches, and it wounds, brings down the soul). I would rather give my time and energy to help, love, support and heal others, no matter who or what they are because if people had not given me that, in the past, I dont know where I'd be or if even alive. I have desired to share my spiritual joy and insights about some things, but I know I dare not. As said on other threads, the forum has changed. I am saddened; and for you, too, as I have watched it play out with you. I suspected that you woud be driven away and I was surprised that you returned a second time. I was very interested and glad when you did so. All that you posted, I read. As you said in different words a few days ago--A person does not care how much you know until they know how much you care. When you came here the first time, I knew that we all failed you, including myself. Hardly anyone even welcomed you. But this second time, I think that many, many persons (relatively) have shown you genuine caring, respect and a desire to know the real you. Please, believe that, Joyce. I believe it is all true and real from them. When you first came here, you really made me think and helped God to convict me of more than you can know. I needed that reminder of what I desire to be, instead of getting caught up in being what I used to be like as an SDA personality (many SDA's; I not saying all). What I have worked at so hard with God's healing to overcome, change and heal from.That scared me, after having no contact with Adventism, at all, for 25 years (except for close family, if they tolerate me). I needed that humbling 2x4 to remind me that I am not like them and I cannot allow myself to fall back into that mode of arrogant, self-righteous attitude and pressured religious-speak to others (many SDA's, not all). Thank you. If you would like to email me about anything (you mentioned an interest in quantum physics, once; something I adore, especially, metaphysically), please feel free to. If not, I won't feel offended. I like to make new friends in email. BTW, my closest friend is agnostic. Another is Buddhist, as well as Christans all over the denominational and non-denom map, even if we do not agree. They accept me, too, for which I am very, very grateful. When you left your email, the first time, a couple of months ago, I thought about emailing you, but I didn't. I'm sorry. Lots of family stuff goes on in my life, lately. I should have contacted you. I won't try to 'convert' you; some people try to convert me out of what I am or into their eschatology (like pretrib. I've been told that I am in a doctrine of demons for being amillinialist). I hate it--when I have been too rash in my frustrated rhetoric, too-- because of the connections lost, the assumptions and accusations made. Christ's serenity for all; and a fellow sister in spirit, I think, Cathy choosier1@msn.com | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 50 Registered: 2-2006 |
Cathy, Lori, Colleen, Thank you so much for all your kind words. You have all been nothing but friendly and kind to me since I joined this forum. But, as I said, I don't feel comfortable here without restricting myself. I may come on from time to time to just ask general information questions, but I really want to feel freer to discuss any kind of topic (and there are so many that I'm interested in!). I have decided to start my own forum for people more like me, where we can speak more freely and move outside the bounds of exclusively Christian ideas. I want to be free to really be myself, without fear of offending or making other people feel I am attacking them. I know there have been a few here who seemed to react that way to me, and then I in turn have felt threatened and struck back. That's NOT what I want to engage in. I respect that this forum is for traditional Christians and you want to feel free to express yourselves just as I do. I don't want to introduce any more topics that will cause other people the anguish that I feel when some people come at me with both barrels, trying to drag me kicking and screaming to Jesus, whether I want to go or not. As I think I've said, I am not against Jesus per se, only certain interpretations of who and what he was. But those interpretations don't really belong on this forum. So, I will take a deep breath, and invite anyone who is willing to venture outside their comfort zone a little, to visit my Yahoo! Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DareToQuestion_DareToFly/ But, bear in mind, it is not a 'Christian' site--it is a questioner's site. I would love to see it grow and expand like this one, and I would love to see folks join and feel safe enough to express their doubts or questions or beliefs, no matter how 'different' they are. I just set it up so I don't really have much going on there yet except a long list of questions, and my own self-explanatory essays. Perhaps we can all share ideas more comfortably by participating in these two separate forums, designed for two very different purposes. Again, thank you for your friendship, Joyce | ||
| Rafael_r Registered user Username: Rafael_r Post Number: 76 Registered: 2-2006 |
®...I am not wrong. My way may not be suited to many folks here, they may even disagree with me vehemently, but I am not wrong. Not for me. I have struggled for many years to get where I am. I will never embrace "one way" the way the Adventists and many others do. I will continue to find my own way as I have done all along, with the help of whichever teachers or books or organizations that I can find any relevancy in...® Dear Joyce, you are in a wrong way, I feel very sorry for you. 1 The proverbs of Solomon son of David, king of Israel: 2 for attaining wisdom and discipline; for understanding words of insight; 3 for acquiring a disciplined and prudent life, doing what is right and just and fair; 4 for giving prudence to the simple, knowledge and discretion to the young- 5 let the wise listen and add to their learning, and let the discerning get guidance- 6 for understanding proverbs and parables, the sayings and riddles of the wise. 7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools [a] despise wisdom and discipline. Proverbs 1:1-7 15 The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice. Proverbs 12:15 12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death. Proverbs 14:12 10 Stern discipline awaits him who leaves the path; he who hates correction will die. 11 Death and Destruction [a] lie open before the LORDó how much more the hearts of men! Proverbs 15:10-11 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. [a] 7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and shun evil. 8 This will bring health to your body and nourishment to your bones. Proverbs 3:5-8 31 He who listens to a life-giving rebuke will be at home among the wise. 32 He who ignores discipline despises himself, but whoever heeds correction gains understanding. 33 The fear of the LORD teaches a man wisdom, [c] and humility comes before honor Proverbs 15:31-33 1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue. 2 All a man's ways seem innocent to him, but motives are weighed by the LORD. 3 Commit to the LORD whatever you do, and your plans will succeed. 4 The LORD works out everything for his own endsó even the wicked for a day of disaster. 5 The LORD detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished. 6 Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the LORD a man avoids evil. 7 When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him. 8 Better a little with righteousness than much gain with injustice. 9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. Proverbs 16:1-9 | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 52 Registered: 2-2006 |
Rafael, I would never say to you "You are wrong"---please extend to me the same courtesy. We all have our own journey to travel. How can one person possibly judge whether another is "in a wrong way"? It is this sort of attitude that is causes me to ask myself: "What on earth am I doing here?" Thank you, Joyce | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1300 Registered: 10-2004  |
We feel that we can, and must, out of love, warn those who are headed towards destruction so that they may escape the danger, because our Lord says: "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM [Exodus 3:14--Jehovah God], you will die in your sins." (John 8:24) "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (John 14:6 NASB.) Jesus Christ says, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36 NASB.) Jeremy | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 53 Registered: 2-2006 |
Jeremy, In that case, I will be totally honest with you and tell you that it infuriates me that anyone could pass that kind of judgement on someone just because they have chosen a way which does not agree with your own. This is what I mean when I refer to the 'exclusivity' of Christianity, and for anyone who is a Christian and doesn't understand why your opinion upsets non-Christians so, please try to imagine how YOU might feel if someone of another religion said it to you. How do you feel now, when SDAs say it to YOU? I realize that you truly mean well, and you really believe your point of view is correct but surely you can imagine how it must feel to 'outsiders'. Or can you? Maybe that's where I'm making my mistake. Maybe there can never be any understanding between Christians and non-Christians (or more correctly between Biblical literalists and non-literalists) You (and others) are basically saying that you have the knowledge and the authority to judge that I and others like me are going to hell, and you are saying that my choices are so 'wrong' as to bring on this destruction. God help us all because I fear that as long as there are people continuing to maintain that position, there will never be any kind of understanding between us human beings. It's at times like these that I think we would have all been better off created as identical little clones with no free will or ability to reason at all. Please, could someone, anyone, just ONE PERSON tell me that you understand why this upsets me so???? This is so totally frustrating. Dialogue??? Communicate???? I can't communicate with someone who already knows the truth!!! Yes, I know that I could go away and just not expose myself to all this, but I feel driven to make somebody understand how it makes me feel so that finally some fundamentalist Christian, somewhere will say to me: 'I get it, I finally understand how you feel.' But you know, it's beginning to dawn on me....... that is never going to happen. I am outside of your little clique, and I always will be.... and that's not necessarily a bad place to be Joyce | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1301 Registered: 10-2004 |
Joyce, I think the difference is that Ellen White can easily be shown to be a fraud. But since I know that they are under the hold of Ellen White, I am not as infuriated at the SDAs as much as I am at Ellen White for writing such lies about those of us who do not believe in her. So I think you should be infuriated at Jesus, since He is the one who said these things and made these claims. If He backed up His claims and showed that He is who He claimed to be, then we should all accept and believe what He says. If His claims are faulty, then He was a fraudulent false teacher, and we should be infuriated by what He said. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4028 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dear Joyce, For some reason you have been on my mind often lately. I hear you, and I really do understand how you feel. I even think I understand why you are appealing to us here for this understanding. Perhaps I'm wrong, but this is what comes to mind: First, we all share the deeply impactingóoften wounding and abusiveópast of Adventism. Of all people on earth, we should understand each other after sharing that past. Second, perhaps after sharing something as exclusive and manipulative as Adventism, it seems as if we should share a mutual sympathy and understanding of everyone finding something comforting and "workable" after the condemnation of being unable to meet adequate "remnant requirements" within Adventism. And to a great extent, I believe many of us understand where you are coming from. A great many people, after Adventism, find refuge in something decidedly different from the overt Adventist doctrines. Thirdóand here I am going completely out on a limb because I'm more or less deducing nowóI suspect there is a part of you that is drawn to the certainty many of us feelóbut with a freedom and joy that was lacking in the certainty of Adventism. You desire true fellowship, and in many ways, understanding the past that shaped you is part of being understood enough to HAVE fellowship. Yet here we areóavowed Christians proclaiming Jesus as Lordóa pretty "exclusive" positionóyet simultaneously truly UNDERSTANDING the abuse of your past. I can only comment now from my own experience, but I suspect that the others on this board share many things in common with me. As an Adventist, I began as a total "exclusivist". For years I smugly rejoiced that I was born into the ONE TRUE CHURCH. Never mind that it nearly drove me crazy (literally) trying to keep track of my sins and imperfections and struggling to be good enough. At least what I had was THE TRUTH. By the time I was in my 30's, after having gone through a divorce and discovering that my "remnant status" did nothing to give me a better life than the average bear, so to speak, I became far less exclusive. I remember thinking that probably most any "sincere" person would be saved because of Jesus' bloodóin fact, I heard a sermon teaching this very thing in a large So Cal Adventist church. It didn't matter, the thinking went, to what persuasion a person conformed; if they never really understood about Jesus, it wouldn't matter as long as they were sincere. Fast forward to my late 30's and early 40's. In spite of my finding a lot of freedom from my rigid remanant convictions, I still wasn't any more peaceful deep inside. Overtly I wasn't always assessing sins, but inwardly I was still anxious and personally perfectionistic. I was far more liberal in my tastes, entertainment, beliefs, etc. I was opening myself to new ideas of spirituality and considering how other ways of looking at things weren't necessarily opposed to Christianity. But inside I was restless; I didn't know what it was about, but I knew that my core was not resolved, and my mind was not content. I began to pray that God would teach me the truth, that He would remove all the old Adventist "filters" in my mind and help me understand the Bible. (I did somehow maintain the convction that the Bible, however "imperfect" I thought it was, contained the closest thing to God's revelation. By this time I no longer thought that all truth was contained in the Bible, but I looked at it as a basic foundation.) Nothing happened fast. Over a period of several years, during which I read the Bible and a great many other books as well, I continued to ask God to teach me what the Bible really said. About eight years ago, Richard discovered documents about Ellen White on the just-burgeoning internet. Simultaneously we were having weekly Bible studies with our Christian neighbors, mostly for our own edification and partly in the hope that we could convert them to Adventism. While we were discovering the truth about Ellen, we were simulatenously discovering that the Bible clearly said things completely opposed to Adventism. We began to see that while many words were similar, the meanings of Adventism and the meanings in the actual Bible text were often very different. Sometime in late 1995 or early 1996, I began to realize that something internal was changing. I remember clearly one evening realizing that I no longer lived in a gap between the too-late-to-do-anything-about-it past and the unknown-but-potentially-threatening-future. I was actually living, at least part of the time, IN THE PRESENT. This was a completely new thing for me. I distinctly remember realizing that this gift of NOW was the result of the Holy Spirit making my heart new. As I continued to study the Bible, to learn about Ellen White, and to pray for truth, I began to realize the reality of what Jesus actually did. I finally realized that this new peace, this "ah-hah!" of seeing Jesus through completely new eyes and of experiencing the internal resolution of anxiety and fear was not the result of new understanding or new knowledge. It was the result of actually meeting a real Person, Jesus, and of allowing myself to be literallyónot figuratively and not just ideologicallyóaffected by His love and forgiveness. In short, I actually met Jesus, and I realized that I loved Him. He was not a construct, a "christ-force", a noble example, a creative internal influence. NoóHe was outside of me; He was literally who He claimed to be in the Bible, and He MET me Himself. And the miracle didn't end there; as I allowed myself to actually feel love for Him and gratitude for taking all the burden of my anxiety and impossible goals for perfection and for belonging and identity and achievement and respectóHe gave me Himself in their place. Yes, JoyceóI can't explain this in literal, physical words, but Jesus awoke love in my heart for Him, and He made my heart new with His SpiritóWho is NOT part of me, but Who literally lives in me and has connected me to God for eternity. I am alive in Him through Jesus, and I kid you not, I literally cry (as I'm doing now) when I think about how astonishing and miraculous and personal He is. My life is new, Joyceóoh, I'm still Colleen; but I'm not the perpetually anxious, lonely, worried Colleen I used to be. I still have a lot of obstacles and hard things in my life, but now I don't fear my future OR my present. I actually have a deep peace and joy that transcends all the anxious thoughts and barbs and fears of my life. And this realityóthis very literalónot just metaphoric or "spiritual"óKNOWING of Jesus is the "obstacle" that stands in the way of your feeling completely understood. I know exactly what you are saying, Joyce, and I "get it". But what I have in knowing and actually feeling love for Jesus (I always thought, in the past, that "loving Jesus" was just a metaphor for gritting my teeth and doing my best) is real, and it is eternal, and my life is literally new. I have been reborn by God's Holy Spirit, and I am not my own. I am His; I am adopted as His daughter, and I am a co-heir with Christ. God has rescued me from the domain of darkness and transferred me to the kingdom of His beloved Son (Col 1:13). Exclusive? Yes, it isóbut it is not an exclusive system of belief. It is a relationship. Real Christianity is not a religion. It is a literal love relationship with the God of the Universe who personally calls us to Himself. He's not coy; He doesn't play with our minds and hope that we land upon something "workable". He has given us His Son and His Word, and He is revealing Himself to us. He is calling us from our deep pain and despair and giving us Himself. Joyce, I don't know any other way to explain why so many of us appear "exclusive"óbut I hope you understand that I'm not talking about knowledge or beliefs. I'm talking about realityóabout actually knowing Jesus. In Him we are one with the Father, and we are renewed by His Spirit. Praise Father, Son, and Holy Spirit! I really do sense your frustration and even desperation to be understood, heard, and embraced for who you are. Indeed, Joyce, you are one of usóa creation of God and a former Adventist. We share a certain "family" connection. But my prayer is that you will come to know our Savior and Redeemer as your personal Lord, that you also will experience the amazing relief at being completely accepted as you are and transformed by His immeasurable gift of death and life. My prayer is that you also will come to know the freedom and "all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of the mystery of God, that is, Christ Himself" (Colossians 2:2). Colleen | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 54 Registered: 2-2006 |
Thank you Colleen. After I wrote that last desperate post (I was at work), I ranted and raved and cried and swore all the way home. Then I sat down and wrote out a very scathing and honest explanatory rant on my own forum, which thus far consists of me talking to myself. That's okay. It's what I need. What I need more than anything is to be honest, no matter the cost. To stand up to people, no matter what they think of me, to finally have my say and declare that I make my own choices now, and I am no longer under the authority of ANYONE. I have felt 'made' and controlled for so many years... by a system that I was no longer even a part of. It's so excruciatingly frustrating. And yes, I had hoped to find people on this forum who would understand. And it just exacerbates my frustration even more when I feel that nothing's really changed and I am still feeling attacked. I know that people are different, and we are all never going to agree, but yes, the exclusive claims of Christianity are what bother me the most. It seems to leave out in the cold, totally hopeless, any person who cannot align themselves with that particular system of belief. It's really quite ironic. I am currently attending a 'Christian' church, although many folks would refuse to acknowledge them as Christian, precisely because they do not teach the exact same teachings about Jesus and do not define 'Christianity' in the same way as fundamentalists. The name of the organization is Unity School of Christianity, they declare the Bible as their foremost textbook and Jesus as their leader, and yet...... Well you get my drift. And even though I am a member of a Christian church, I cannot and will not label myself 'Christian' because that term is so offensive to me. What it has meant to me and what it stands for in my experience, has been so painful and so dismissive and so demoralizing.... And yet, I feel confident that if I were to admit these feelings to someone at my church, they would be perfectly accepting and understanding and would NOT condemn me for it. Now do you see why I appreciate that church so much? They have helped me to believe that I am not worthless, that I am not contemptible and vile and disgusting in God's eyes. They have shown me every time I am with them what the love of God is really all about. I have never experienced this in my life. It is a new and wondrous and joyful thing. I have found something that I can almost believe in. Now, don't you think this is cause for celebration?! Don't you think that this is a reason to say: "God is Good---ALL THE TIME!!"? I do. And I ask myself, am I just being foolish? I don't even know these people on this forum. Why am I putting myself in this position, opening myself to their criticisms, why does it matter to me? Why does it matter what the SDAs or the ex-SDAs or anyone else thinks? And, frankly, I just haven't found the answer to this yet. It is a psychological wound that I am seeking to heal, I believe, by lashing out and standing up to the people who seem to represent the group who hurt me. And when I hear the same old words..... well, here we go again. I'm sorry, maybe I should never have started this particular endeavor. God knows, that's what my siblings have told me. They point-blank ask me: "Why do you hang out with those people?" And I can't explain it. Except that, I feel a bond. I feel a connection. I even still feel a connection with the Adventist church. Maybe it will never go away. It is, after all, my heritage. Maybe the best I can hope for is to find a way to move on into a better place for myself and just forgive and truly "release and let go" as my sister advised me to do. I too am trying to learn to "see Jesus through different eyes" as you said, and I am certainly getting a far more applicable presentation of this in my present church than I ever got anywhere else. I truly don't expect to ever come to the understanding that you have, but I just cannot believe in a God that would require that of me. If God is not able to understand me and know me and truly understand, then, really what good is God anyway? So, yes, I am continually changing my ideas of what 'God' might be, and how that might be relevant to me. I guess that I am just having difficulty healing old wounds inflicted by those who said, "If you don't accept our teachings, OUR God (who is the ONLY God, by the way, so mine can't possibly be real!) will send you to hell. And I feel that I have so far been unable to stand up as I've always wanted and JUST SAY NO!! It sounds like you truly have experienced a wonderful change in your life, and that is such a great thing for you. I can see from your explanation that you were terribly wounded by your Adventist experience. And I don't want to denigrate anyone's experience because I can see that it is real and you are sincere. I don't doubt that for a minute. I guess what I have been hoping for, asking for was the acceptance by others (Christians) that I could do the same, but in a different way than they do. And I think that that may be too much to ask. Still, I really appreciate you're nice long explanation. It helps me to understand where you're coming from better. I only wish someone could understand why it doesn't work for me. But, I do feel that, if God is really God, then God will understand. And that's really all that matters anyway, don't you think?? Thank you, Colleen. Maybe now I can stop crying for a while, and head out for church. Joyce | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4031 Registered: 12-2003 |
Joyce, God is truly God, and He does understand. He knows what you need, and He leads all of us to Himself via completely different routes. He is our One Destinationóbut He does not have a "blueprint" for how He deals with each of us. I believe that if you want to know His love and want to know Him, He will certainly be faithful to reveal Himself to you and to heal your heart. Ask Him to lead you into His peace and forgiveness and acceptance. You can trust Him, and I trust His work in your life. With prayers for you (and with gladness that you are still risking talking to us!), Colleen | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 137 Registered: 2-2006 |
I understand, Joyce. Especially--as you pointed out--since SDA's do the same to me (us). "You are lost, going to hell...etc.." I am not your saviour nor your personal Holy Spirit to judge nor convict you of anything. St. Paul said he didn't even judge himself; Christ was his judge. The growing soil of your heart is your own. All I could ever do--as Colleen has--is tell you my own journey, story, which ended in Love and healing. Sharing, not comparing. Not all Christians are like what is hurting you. I have felt your anger, hurt and invalidation as a person--just a precious human woman-- too, at various times, in various places. I have prayed to the merciful Jesus for your balm of healing and peace. I pray that we can be merciful to you in sharing common past pains, if that is to be. Cathy choosier1@msn.com | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 234 Registered: 7-2005  |
Joyce, you said
I'm glad that you mentioned this. Not many people have the sincerity to say "I cannot believe in your God". Maybe we can find here a common ground: we can agree that we cannot believe in the God of the other party. This may be the point of reconciliation between us: you reject our view of God, and we reject your view of God. We differ only about in the way we see God. After all, it's not wrong to believe that the view of others about God is wrong, and we cannot believe the same like them, isn't it? We can reach a point in which we can agree that being intolerant to the others views about God is not bad, or wrong, or unloving. We may love and understand each other, even our common intolerance toward the other people's views. This is different that the intolerance toward people which is always bad and wrong, and unloving. |
