| Author | Message | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 60 Registered: 2-2006  |
I wonder if some of you would be willing to share your understanding of the concept of the Omnipresence of God? I seem to have a somewhat vague, recollection of a (possibly) SDA explanation of this years ago: God the Father in Heaven, not really a 'person', but rather Spirit---still referred to and described as if he were that 'old white-haired man sitting on a throne.' Jesus, the Son, also in Heaven now, at the right hand of God the Father, again not really a person (or maybe he was---I'm not sure). The Holy Ghost (care to guess how old I am?!) who was somehow the manifestation of God the Father, but on earth, everywhere present (I think) as Spirit, speaking to us (if we chose to listen). And, of course, they were all one--the Godhead. None of this ever made much sense to me back then, nor seemed to touch me in any way except, I really liked the idea of that everywhere present Spirit, the Holy Ghost, and eventually more and more, this came to be my concept of 'the REAL God'. It seemed to be the only one that I could 'touch', I guess because of its being present right here on earth where I am. (I get the sense that many of you experience Jesus in this way---as a very real presence that you can actually experience.) I'm sure there are many ways of visualizing this concept. Also, I may be assuming something that is not even the case---perhaps not everyone believes that God is omnipresent. I think I have known of some people who believe in God only as transcendent, not immanent. I'm also interested in the two accompanying definitions of God: omnipotence and omniscience, but I will leave those two for another day. Joyce | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2219 Registered: 11-2002 |
I thought the term ment that God was everywhere, with all Christians all the time. God of course is the generic word for the personal name Yhwasuha. (I think I am a poor speller.) It is the term that explains the trinity. I think being raised SDA's this is a hard concept because much of the SDA teachings dimish the trinity. Yes, in the SDA statement of beliefs it says the trinity as one of its 28 fundamentals and yes the trinity is included in the baptizmnal vows but as is so often noted on this forum SDA's used regular Christian termology but the terms and words don't have the same meanings as they do to non-SDA Christians. Thank-you for bring that up, Joyce as I always like expanding my comprehension of different concepts. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4048 Registered: 12-2003  |
Joyce, what an interesting question. I've found myself pondering my understanding of God lately, and I've been comparing my life-long perception of the Trintiy (the Godhead, as I was taught to call it) with what I am perceiving during the past few years as I have been more immersed in Bible study. In fact, I had a conversation with a friend last week with whom I don't get to talk very often, and she said she had recently been realizing that although she had been taught about the Trinity as an Adventist, her practical understanding had been of three separate "Gods". Your memory of your early teachings of God, Joyce, are much like mine. I thought of the Father, whom I could never really "picture" as being transcendent and more or less remote but benign and loving in a general way. Jesus was a difficult combination of divine and human and was "gentle, meek and mild"óthe "soft touch" of the Godhead who was somehow less powerful than God, but in a way I couldn't explain. The Holy Spirit seemed like a force or power that helped me be good and was sent to the world because Jesus left. I thought of Him as an "It", and I could never really decide what He was in a practical way. Here's what I'm realizing now from reading about God in the Bible. God is One Being; the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are persons, but they are One Being. I really can't explain or picture that. The metaphor that helps me the most is thinking of the individual fingers on a hand. The fingers are part of the hand; the hand is one. The fingers do the work of the hand, and they function in complete interdependence upon each other. We can't separate the work of each finger from the other fingers or from the hand. Obviously, there are problems with this metaphor, and we can't really explain what the Bible does not fully explain. Here's my current understanding: God (with the exception of Jesus since His incarnation) cannot be conceived in physical terms. "God is spirit" (John 4:24)óand we must, therefore, worship Him in spirit and in truth. Jesus is God in flesh, an mystery not explained, but, as John said, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was GodÖThe Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us" (John 1:1, 14). The Holy Spirit is the Comforter Jesus promised would come after He returned to the Father. The Spirit indwells us when we believe in Jesus and accept His forgiveness (see Acts 2, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30). This indwelling is what makes us new, and He never leaves us. These three persons function as One. As Ephesians 2: 13 says, "For through him [Jesus] we both [Jew and Gentile] have access to the Father by one Spirit." Or this prayer of Paul's: "I kneel before the FatherÖI pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through His Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have the power together with all the saints to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledgeóthat you may be filled to the measure with all the fullness of God." (Ephesians 3:14-19) This One God in three persons is omnipresent. Again from Ephesians: "He who descended is the very one who ascendced higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe" (4:10). "He [Jesus] is before all things, and in Him all things hold together" (Colossians 1:17). God was please to have all things in heaven and on earth reconciled to Him by Jesus' making peace through the blood of His cross (Col 1:19-20). David said to God, "Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fastÖeven the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is al light to youÖMy frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body" (Psalm 139:7-16). When Jesus was leaving his disciples to return to the Father after His resurrection he said to them, "And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age" (Matthew 28:20). We can't actually explain how God's omnipresence works, but there is no place in all creation where He is not. And when we are made alive in Him, we are not only in His creation, we are in Him. Jesus said to His disciples shortly before His death, "Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him" (John 14:19-21). God is "over all and through all and in all" (Ephesians 4:7) because He is the Creator, and His is not limited by time and three dimensions. We are in His creation, and by means of being born anew by the Holy Spirit through faith in the blood of Jesus, we are united with God Himself intimately. I certainly relate to your confusion over the identity of God and to how He "works" in and around us. My own confusion about these issues has only recently begun to resolve, not because I really understand how it works, but because I'm starting to find consistent statements of His omnipresence throughout the Bible, and these statements are cosistent with the astonishing miracle of really knowing and experiencing Jesus. I hope this sort-of addresses what you asked, Joyce! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1303 Registered: 10-2004  |
Adventism teaches that Jesus is not omnipresent. This heresy denies that Jesus is God and denies the Trinity. If God is omnipresent and He is One Being, then all of the following must be true: Wherever the Father is, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are. Wherever Jesus is, the Father and the Holy Spirit are. Wherever the Holy Spirit is, the Father and Jesus are. (Reading about the doctrine of perichoresis, or mutual indwelling, may be helpful, although maybe mind-boggling.  ) When the SDAs teach that Jesus is not omnipresent, this is evidence of the Adventist doctrine of tritheism (that "God" is like an office held by three divine beings). I agree with Colleen about the Adventists' focus on the term "Godhead." Like the Mormons, they use the word "Godhead" or the term "members of the Godhead" to speak of a "god group" of which there are three separate "members," or divine beings. If you Google the phrase "members of the Godhead" you will, amazingly, see that the most common results are LDS and SDA. In their official belief book, the Adventists teach that spirits have "spiritual bodies" (they just can't accept the idea of bodiless spirits, even though Jesus Himself says very clearly that spirits do not have flesh and bones!). Therefore, they teach that all three divine beings/gods (the Father, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus) have bodies, although Jesus' body somehow "prevents" omnipresence. In contrast, the Mormons teach that the Father and Jesus have bodies, but that the Holy Ghost is a spirit without a body. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 27, 2006) | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 470 Registered: 7-2004  |
Yes, that is mind-boggling, Jeremy! I can see that the verse where Jesus says "We will come and make Our abode" with believers, clearly must mean Jesus and the Holy Spirit are omnipresent as God is. Can I throw a question out there without muddying the waters too much? If the triune God only abides in/with believers (those who are born again), then it seems He is not dwelling in unbelievers, in which case is that limiting His omnipresence? Does omnipresence mean God is everywhere at once, or God is capable of being everywhere at once? | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1304 Registered: 10-2004 |
Omnipresence means that God is present everywhere at once. The indwelling of believers is a special type of God's presence and refers to born again persons' spirits being "connected" to God (also referred to as being "spiritually alive"). The Bible also tells us that this connection to God is eternal--that we have eternal life. This link may be helpful for more information on the subject of different types of God's presence. Jeremy | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 471 Registered: 7-2004 |
That's a very informative link. It basically explains there are various types of God's presence and that's how He can be present with both believers and unbelieves, but in entirely different ways. Although it was new to me that this person thinks Old Testament people could have been born again just like Christians. Somehow I had this picture that when Jesus was raised from the dead, that made the new birth possible and that's when it happened. However, it also makes sense, as this person pointed out, that it requires being born again to be capable of believing; since there were clearly believers in the Old Testament (i.e. Abraham) they must have already been born again. How prevalent is the idea that the new birth couldn't/didn't happen until Jesus' death and resurrection? I don't know when I first thought that, but I know part of that comes from Lewis' The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe where all the stone statues come to life--isn't that the first thing Aslan does when he comes back to life? Oh well, the Bible is reality, not necessarily Lewis' story. | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 61 Registered: 2-2006 |
What an interesting assortment of ideas. Thanks everyone for your input. Let me preface this by saying, I definitely think that we, as humans, can never even begin to have an understanding of what God is, or the extent of what God is. I think that's why there have come to be so many differing definitions and descriptions. We WANT to understand, but we just don't know where to start. My understanding of omnipresence has always been 'everywhere present, all the time.' I'm not sure where or when I first acquired this idea. Dictionary.com says simply: present everywhere simultaneously; the state of being everywhere at once. Certainly the concept of omnipresence as one of the attributes of God seems to be 'omnipresent'! For me, the whole concept of 'everywhere present' indicates that we are talking about something far different from any person or idea that we've ever encountered. Are we talking about a God who indwells every aspect of creation? Or are we talking about a God who indwells only human beings? Or perhaps, only certain human beings? If God is in every aspect of creation, does that mean within every cell of our bodies? Every molecule of all materiality? Or perhaps, just in the 'spaces' between these so-called 'material' things? I've considered all these ideas, but obviously my human mind is not able to grasp any one of them. I think perhaps that's why human beings have always tended to perceive of God as a 'person'---something we can understand because that's what we are. 'Spirit' and 'everywhere-present' are just not something that we can relate to. Jeremy, your description is similar to what I have learned from various sources. Imagine human beings as being some sort of electrical appliance. We're 'plugged in' to God---the wiring is all there, but the switch is not turned on. In your description, Jesus would be the one who flipped the switch, so to speak. Then the 'machine' comes to life, re-connects to God and realizes it's eternal nature, that it had available all along, but didn't know it. So, there seemed to be no connection with God, but really it is always there, as easily as pushing a button---we just have to realize it. I may use a bit different words to describe this process, but I think it is very similar in nature. In my understanding, I think that there is always a connection---without it we would not be 'alive', or even exist---but we must 're-awaken' to know the fullness of our connection to God and our closeness with God. The only difference is in how each of us understands the flipping of the switch. Does God (whether Jesus, God or Holy Spirit---and how much difference can it make if they are truly 'One'?) flip the switch? Or do we somehow do it by a choice we make? It's an interesting question? I certainly don't have an answer. Very interesting, indeed. Joyce | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4053 Registered: 12-2003 |
I just remembered that today Richard heard a riveting statement by someone (we didn't get his name) who gave the Sabbath School lesson study today at the LLU Church. We caught his delivery on the internet. He first told of going to Europe and looking up his relatives whom he had never seen. A local young man served as his guide to find the house where his relatives lived. As the young man delivered him to the proper address and he met his family, the guide said softly about him, "Safe at last, safe at last" as he unobtrusively began to distance himself and leave. Then the speaker said to imagine what it will be like when we get to heaven and finally are in the presence of Jesus. The Holy Spirit, he said, who has been with us in Jesus' absence, will say, "Safe at last, safe at last" and slowly begin to move away from us and leave. I was working at my desk, and Richard was sitting near me at his desk watching. I'd tuned out the talking until I heard Richard exclaim (in unsually loud and distressed tones) "Oh, NO!!!" Yet we were taughtóat least many of us wereóand Ellen says that the Holy Spirit will leave us. I learned He would leave during the time of trouble, but whatever the timing, we would be without Him when we meet Jesus. It's quite amazing to me how clear the Bible is about the Holy Spirit's being part of all God's work for and in us. He will never leave us because God will never leave us! Colleen | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 64 Registered: 2-2006 |
I agree Colleen--I cannot envision us 'without God'. It seems to be a contradiction in terms. I just posted a fairly long 'essay' on my own forum that started out to be a comparison of transcendent versus immanent God, and turned out to be a rather mind-blowing description of how I have been 'experiencing' God. Some folks might disagree with my explanation, but it's very real to me, so I invite your reaction to it. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DareToQuestion_DareToFly/message/21 Joyce | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 102 Registered: 1-2004  |
Historically (think more than 1000 years ago) the Christian Church tended to say what God is not, rather than what God is. This was to acknowledge that God is bigger than we can understand. It was necessary to put a stop to false understandings of God... and usually those false understandings were from people who wanted to completely understand and define God. This method allowed the Church to have absolutes without having absolute knowledge. It was like saying "if you go down this path you will believe something contrary to what God has revealed about Himself, so don't go down this path. We are putting a roadblock here!" Of course, a person had to believe that the Holy Spirit was directing the Church, otherwise it wouldn't make any difference what the Church said... you'd just start your own church. Jeremiah | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2233 Registered: 11-2002 |
I've had SDA's tell me "God is a spirit". The Bible says "God is spirit". There is a big difference between those two statements. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4063 Registered: 12-2003 |
Joyce, my understanding of God's onminpresence is actually different from yours in a couple of key ways. Probably the foundational difference between my understanding and yours is the fact that I evaluate my experience on the external witness of the Bible. Perhaps the major way this external evaluation changes my understanding is that I see peopleómyself, to be specificóas fundamentally in need of a rescue. Based on Ephesians 2:1-10, I understand my own experience better. Ephesians says that we are all originally dead in our transgressions and sins, following the ruler of the kingom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. In other words, as I am naturally, I am "by nature" an object of wrath (Ephe 2:3). But here's the good news: because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy has made us alive in Christ even when we were dead in our sins, for it is by grace we have been saved. (Ephe 2:4-5) It is by grace we have been saved, through faith, not of ourselves. It is a gift of Godónot by works, so no one can boast. (Ephe 2:8-9) I cannot "access" the peace and joy and love of God without first acknowledging my deep brokenness. I can open myself up to spiritual influences without repentance and experience new perspectives, but unless I choose to admit my need for rescue and forgiveness, my life won't really change long term. For many years I struggled with the up and down of feeling spiritual and energized and feeling despairing and dry and discouraged. I remember the day that marked the point of turning for me. It was during my divorce. I was still an Adventist, but a fairly shaken-up one. One day I was pacing in my apartment, absolutely broken over the fact that the unthinkable had happened; I was in a divorce. This situation seemed to me the nearly unforgivable sin. I knew I could not consider myself innocent. I believed my usefulness was over. No one would ever take me seriously again. I was aware that day of the fact that I was not an innocent victim. I was in this predicament partly because I was deeply flawed; I had deceived myself in many ways, and in spite of my best intentions, I had spiraled into this state of dissolution. I remember feeling as if I were dying. I had "accepted Jesus" many times before, but that acceptance had never seemed to "take". I really didn't know what it meant. I begged God to forgive me, and I also knew he could not. I could not justify myself; I was a guilty party. No matter how much I had suffered, I had not been innocent. I was deeply depressed and felt despairing of even living. Hopeless, I cried to God. I had never before come so face-to-face with the fact that there really had been nothing I could have done to have prevented my guilt. No matter how hard I tried to be good, I was inherently broken, and that brokenness had driven my own sin in the marriage. Knowing I would surely die, I begged God again to forgive me, but with no hope of rescue. I was completely unworthy. Suddenly something I cannot explain happened. In a moment I knew that God forgave me. In an instant, in the place where I had been dying, I had hope. I knew that God was not done with me, that He had not discarded me. I knew that He loved me, and that I was His. I knew for the first time in my life that God did not just generally or figuratively love me, but that He specifically forgave me of of my incurable intrinsic sinfulness because of Jesus. That moment was just a beginning. During the next 10 years God awoke me to the reality of Him and the to the reality of the Adventist deception that had kept me in bondage. It had kept me from knowing and admitting my inherited sinóOh, it had convicned me, all right, that all my decisions were bad and that I was unable to be obedient and therefore would likely be unable to be saved. But Adventism had never taught me that I was incapable of ever "getting it right". I had always believed that if I wanted to be good and asked God to help me, I could be good. the problem was, I COULDN'T. Adventism had never explained that any hope I had was completely from outside myselfónot even a tiny bit from my own determination and will power. I had to come face-to-face with the reality of my deep spiritual bankruptcy before I could be humbled enough to accept the unpayable debt of Jesus' blood for me. I couldn't accept God's rescue of me until I accepted the fact that I was dying on my own. As God continued, over the next 10 years, to reveal the truth about Himself to me, I came to know Him as a literal person. He is not a force or something within me. He is Godóand I am His creation. Yet He has chosen me and saved me and brought me to life, and He lives in me now. The Bible speaks of this miracle. I know my experience is real and repeatable because the Bible describes it in the lives of many people. But I couldn't "tap into" this experience based on reading about it and searching for it within myself. I had to go belly-up before the great external God who paradoxically loved me individually enough to allow me to face my own certain hopeless death in order to get over myself and submit to His forgiveness. His life in me is real, and here's the amazing thing that still, after 10 or so years, amazes me: even though life is often hard and risky and filled with surrender and loss and uncertainty, the reality of Jesus' love and presence never goes away. Oh, I'm not always euphoric, but I can always experience His presence. I feel His peace; I see His intervention in my life in many small, daily ways as well as significant ways He lets me know His will and His love and His reassurance. The peace and constancy of Jesus' presence with me is the great miracle of this whole journey. He Himself is my great reward. His omnipresence is real because He is bigger than creation, and He fills the whole universe. Yet simultaneously He lives inside each person who turns to Him in repentance and faith as He awakens the heart to His presence and forgiveness. I know my experience is not an illusion, and I know I am not uniqueóbecause the Bible confirms my experience. God is not a trickster or hidden within secret knowledge. God is also not part of me. He is IN me, but He is not me. The metaphor of marriage describes the relationship of Jesus to His people in whom He lives. Marriage is the union of two distinct, dissimilar persons; it is not the union of one person with herself. Jesus is the head of the body which is the church, and He is the life as well as the creator as well as the sustainer of all thingsóthe Bible uses the metaphor of marriage to describe this union of Jesus and those who are born from above. This is a real and constant and intimate relationship between persons. And miraculously, because of the Holy Spirit that indwells us when we submit to being forgiven and cleansed by Jesus' blood, His Spirit also connects us with each other in profound ways. We share the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16)--not because His mind is naturally in us if we look, but because He Himself puts it in us by indwelling us. Our rescue from the domain of darkness and our transferrence into the kingdom of the beloved Son (Col 1:13) is not a metaphor for discovering spiritual power within. It is a literal change from our original condition of spiritual death and our new position of life and oneness with God when we accept Jesus' sacrifice. Joyce, please don't hear me just "preaching" to you. I'm trying to describe what I have experiencedóand what the external reality of the Bible also confirms. I praise Him for His faithfulnessóand I praise Him for what He is doing in each of usóincluding you! Colleen | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 66 Registered: 2-2006 |
Actually, Colleen, I see people pretty much as in need of rescuing too. Anyway, I know I was. I mean, I had to be pretty desperate to go back and try the Adventist church again, don't you think? Where you and I differ is, I always had difficulty with that concept of, as you describe, being "an object of wrath." I just could never reconcile being an object of wrath with being loved. How could God hate me so much, and love me at the same time? I know lots of people don't see it that way, or don't have difficulty with that concept but that was my main problem. I agree, we can't really get help until we realize we need help. But there again, even when I knew how desperately I needed help, I couldn't go to that "God of wrath" because, I just couldn't see how he could help me, and truthfully, I blamed him for my troubles. I blamed both that concept of God, and the teachings that I got from the SDA church, and my SDA family---teachings that told me that I am nothing, worthless, lower than worm-dirt, an evil, horrible, despicable person. I know that there are Christians who don't get that feeling from the Christian teachings, but I did. And there was just no way I could twist it around in my mind, or redefine it to get any other meaning out of it. No matter what, it seemed like that God hated me, and my only hope was for Jesus to stand there and sort of "run interference" in order to keep this God from literally torturing me to death. I know you don't feel this way, but maybe you can sort of see where I'm coming from. Something just came to me. Perhaps how others view this is not so much as us being the object of God hatred, but rather just viewing us as being both mortal and imperfect. Certainly, I could go along with that. And that somehow, by dying and coming back to life, Jesus defeated that death. I don't know. That part's awfully fuzzy and incomprehensible to me. I was always really turned off by the thought of some innocent victim dying for me (or anyone else)---even if I were an axe murderer or something equally horrific. It just made God see so weird and twisted in his thinking. I'm sorry if that offends. I'm sure you don't feel that way about it at all. I've had lots of people try to describe what it means to me, but I just don't get it. You say, "...unless I choose to admit my need for rescue and forgiveness, my life won't really change long term..." I agree that we often feel lost and hopeless and the need to be rescued because we just can't figure out what to do on our own. But I am really troubled by the overall 'blanket condemnation' that is implied by the 'need for forgiveness.' Sure, we all have done things that have hurt others, and we may need to seek the forgiveness of others, or we may need to forgive them for something. This is all part of the human condition. I do understand that. But what I always got from what I was taught was that, we are born 'sinful'. That just isn't true. Look at a new-born baby. They are pure and innocent---a blank slate. If things go well for them, they can grow up to be basically good human beings, imperfect, making mistakes but learning from them... but not really 'bad' or 'evil'. Of course, sometimes things don't go well, and people can end up in a much different situation, but there is still always that potential---to start over, to 'clean up their act' and become a new person. That is a source of amazement for me, to see how a person can go from the depths of despair, or even 'evil', and become a new person. So, maybe the difference in how you and I see it is, I don't describe us as 'deeply flawed' just because we are imperfect. It's a very interesting topic to discuss, and I enjoy it, and I know that human beings will never totally agree on the answers. The thing about it that really troubles me is when I feel that I am being condemned. No, I am not saying you are doing that, but sometimes it can feel that way, the way Christians describe it. Also, sometimes I think that others think I am saying that I am perfect, when I say I don't view us as being 'inherently flawed'. Not at all. Good grief! I keep doing the same stupid things over and over again. It takes me forever to learn! But I have finally started to view life as a journey of learning, and I think that's what we need to focus on, our growing and learning and moving into a deeper connection to God. Realizing that is really our life's purpose... Maybe I should stop right here and ask you to clarify, maybe I am just hearing it wrong... about the 'nature' of human beings..... For example, in the paragraph where you talk about your despair and sense of guilt over your divorce, and you say "I had never before come so face-to-face with the fact that there really had been nothing I could have done to have prevented my guilt." I know people go through so much pain during times like this, blaming ourselves, blaming the other person, but what I hear in this paragraph is a person in an utterly hopeless situation---'guilt' through no fault of your own--born already guilty (which admittedly makes no sense to me), and so of course there is nothing you can do to make up for it, or change it. Yes, that is a state of true despair and hopelessness. And that is the concept I always questioned. It clearly isn't fair or right, and I always felt that a God who would inflict this upon us (because of something someone else did long ago) was a pretty sadistic God. Certainly one to be feared, not loved. I had a father who was pretty much always condemning and accusing and ridiculing, as if I were a total idiot from the get-go. Believe me, even when he was being nice, I was always on guard, untrusting, and could never feel any love toward him---only fear. What about you? Were you able to feel love toward this 'wrathful' God? Now, I eventually came to see this kind of thinking as 'faulty thinking', taught to us by the church, our parents, whatever. It's one thing to own up to our own wrong-doing or bad choices, and I agree that we must learn to do this, and that it's not easy. But until we do learn to understand what we are to blame for because of our own choices, and what we are NOT to blame for also, we will remain in that place of hopelessness and vicimization. I accept blame for my choices. I DON'T accept blame for choices made by other people---whether my parents, Adam and Eve or whoever. I hope this is all making sense. I'm not trying to accuse you or any other Christians, or change your way of thinking. I'm just saying that certain things don't make sense to me, there seems to be an inherent unfairness to it, and I don't think that God is unfair. At least, I don't want to think that. If it turns out that God is capricious and unfair, well then I choose not to associate with him. I know that sounds scary to some folks, but I lived a life of fear for 50+ years and I finally decided, better to go to hell than live for eternity in that kind of fear. Can you tell me this, when you were in the darkest depths and begging God to forgive you, was it for things you had actually done (mistakes made in your marriage, for example), or was it just for existing? This is what I wrestled with for years... feeling that people were telling me, "You are evil, just because you exist---not for anything you've ever done." I fought against it on a daily basis. I 'knew' it was wrong. I can't say how I knew, I just knew that it was wrong to condemn a person just for their existence. Something they clearly hadn't chosen, and hadn't caused. It also sounds like you were struggling with unreasonably perfectionistic expectations of yourself (easy to see where you got that, right? Or perhaps you're a first-born child like me---I understand that's a common trait with first-borns) But I can honestly say now, and I don't feel a bit bad about saying it (even if people disagree with it): I am a good person. Am I perfect? Of course not. Am I living to my full potential? No way! But do I have my focus now on the fact that 'with God all things are possible' and knowing that I am NOT a bad, evil, wicked, horrible person? You betcha! That is the freedom that I have found. I have found that the more I am able to stop thinking of myself as 'no good', the more I am able to see others in the same way, and realize that we are all children of God, and to also know that our ultimate goal (whether we achieve it or not) needs to be on making the choice, moment-to-moment, to love and respect ourselves (not condemn ourselves) and TO LOVE AND RESPECT OTHERS. Whenever we are able to see others as children of God and not judge them, there will be nothing to forgive. That is NOT the same thing as turning a blind eye to wrong-doing. But even as we recognize that a person has done a 'wrong' of some kind, we can still choose to see in that person, beyond who they are in that moment, the potential and hope that God sees. Does all this make sense to you? Again, it's not that I want to change people's minds. I used to think that, but now I just hope that as human beings we can try to see each others' point of view and accept each other, without that need to 'reform' the other to our way of seeing things. As I have learned, the world is not nearly so simple as the black/white, right/wrong Adventist teachings would have had us believe. We have to learn to work within the many, many different ways of thinking that will always prevail wherever we find a diversity of people with free wills and individual minds. When you say, "God is also not part of me. He is IN me, but He is not me," I have heard this described as a drop of water in the ocean. The drop of water is not the ocean, obviously, but it is 'one with the ocean', inextricably a part of it, and 'in its image' but never the totality of it. And of course, the drop of water can never really know the extent and entire nature of the ocean. It only knows its tiny 'drop-ness'. Does that make sense? That's somewhat like my church teaches... We are never truly un-connected from God, but just as the drop of water (or some liken it to a fish too), we may be unable 'see' that God is there, all around us and available. But we have to ask. God never rejects, but we in our limitation may be unable to see. I hope some of what I said makes sense to you. I enjoyed reading about your experiences and it helps me to understand you more. I do think we both suffered from a similar fate: being taught that we were hopeless and could never be good enough, when in reality, God doesn't require perfection or make hopeless demands of us---God accepts us, understands us and loves us just as we are. God believes in us, even when we don't believe in ourselves. Anyway, that's my understanding of it. So, thanks again for listening to me. I'm so glad that we all are learning to understand each other a little better. After all, as you have said, we do have a lot in common, with our common backgrounds. I must get ready now and head out for my holiday get-together with family. Have a great day, everyone! Joyce | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 67 Registered: 2-2006 |
Colleen, Just one little postscript to my previous post--I just want to say that I think that you are a truly good and caring person, and I am glad that I've had the chance to get to know you and the others on this forum. And I'm glad that you have found a way out of the guilt and despair that you so obviously experienced. It sounds like maybe you had things a lot worse than I did---perhaps, because only one of my parents was SDA. Now, I really must get off here before my sisters come knocking on my door and drag me out of here! A great day to everyone! Joyce | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2566 Registered: 3-2004  |
Joyce, I can try to understand you as that is how my oldest sister felt when I became reacquainted with her. She has learned to place responsibility where it belongs and the cruel things that made her feel so low were not her fault. The responsibility belonged to my Mom and our Dad. Once she learned that, she was able to process her anger and feelings of not being worthy. She has learned how worthy she is now and I thank God for that. Like you she is a truly good and caring person and I am glad I have had the opportunity to know her and you. You sound so much like her. Diana | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 103 Registered: 1-2004 |
Joyce, Here's an interesting bit about why Jesus had to do what He did... this is from Athanasius "On the Incarnation of the Word of God" written in the 4th century. ...it was our sorry case that caused the Word to come down, our transgression that called out His love for us, so that He made haste to help us and to appear among us. It is we who were the cause of His taking human form, and for our salvation that in His great love He was both born and manifested in a human body. For God had made man thus (that is, as an embodied spirit), and had willed that he should remain in incorruption. But men, having turned from the contemplation of God to evil of their own devising, had come inevitably under the law of death. Instead of remaining in the state in which God had created them, they were in process of becoming corrupted entirely, and death had them completely under its dominion. For the transgression of the commandment was making them turn back again according to their nature; and as they had at the beginning come into being out of non -existence, so were they now on the way to returning, through corruption, to non -existence again. The presence and love of the Word had called them into being; inevitably, therefore when they lost the knowledge of God, they lost existence with it; for it is God alone Who exists, evil is non -being, the negation and antithesis of good. By nature, of course, man is mortal, since he was made from nothing; but he bears also the Likeness of Him Who is, and if he preserves that Likeness through constant contemplation, then his nature is deprived of its power and he remains incorrupt. So is it affirmed in Wisdom: "The keeping of His laws is the assurance of incorruption." (Wisdom vi. 18) And being incorrupt, he would be henceforth as God, as Holy Scripture says, "I have said, Ye are gods and sons of the Highest all of you: but ye die as men and fall as one of the princes." (Psalm lxxxii. 6 ) ... As we have already noted, it was unthinkable that God, the Father of Truth, should go back upon His word regarding death in order to ensure our continued existence. He could not falsify Himself; what, then, was God to do? Was He to demand repentance from men for their transgression? You might say that that was worthy of God, and argue further that, as through the Transgression they became subject to corruption, so through repentance they might return to incorruption again. But repentance would not guard the Divine consistency, for, if death did not hold dominion over men, God would still remain untrue. Nor does repentance recall men from what is according to their nature; all that it does is to make them cease from sinning. Had it been a case of a trespass only, and not of a subsequent corruption, repentance would have been well enough; but when once transgression had begun men came under the power of the corruption proper to their nature and were bereft of the grace which belonged to them as creatures in the Image of God. No, repentance could not meet the case. What - or rather Who was it that was needed for such grace and such recall as we required? Who, save the Word of God Himself, Who also in the beginning had made all things out of nothing? His part it was, and His alone, both to bring again the corruptible to incorruption and to maintain for the Father His consistency of character with all. For He alone, being Word of the Father and above all, was in consequence both able to recreate all, and worthy to suffer on behalf of all and to be an ambassador for all with the Father. Maybe this will add some insight about the subject... I know I don't fully understand it myself! I think a key part of why Jesus had to do what He did is that we have free will. Another key is that all life comes from God, therefore for man to leave God means to leave life. And according to the quotes above, another key is that God does not lie. I'm getting the concept that God could not make self sustaining independent creatures who needed no connection with God in order to have life. As stated above "for it is God alone Who exists, evil is non -being, the negation and antithesis of good." If this is truly the case, then that's just something we have to accept, and then the thing to do is get connected back with God. Jeremiah | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4068 Registered: 12-2003 |
Joyce, probably the fact that I understand the Bible to be the actual word of God and revelation of reality is the point that leads us to different conclusions. I completely understand your repugnance at the idea of babies not being a "blank slate" and innocent. I think, though, that the defintion of all humans' natural condition makes a big difference in how to understand it. People's natural "depravity", to use a rather "stodgy" but descriptive theological term, is not their WORTH or their natural "goodness" or ''badness". It is POSITIONAL. 1 Corinthians 15:22 says it this way: "For as IN Adam all die, so IN Christ all wiill be made alive." And Romans 5:12 and 17 say, "Threrefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinnedÖFor if, by the trespass of one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ." And again in Romans 5:19: "For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." The point is that as Adam's "progeny", we are "In Adam" when we are born. That is a positional statement; literally, we are of Adam and in the human race. Because we are "in Adam", we also "inherit" what he bequeathed. His sin became the mark of all humanity. This natural inheritance does not make us of no value to God. It merely means we are born broken. Indeed, we can sense this brokenness by the fact that everyone has certain character flaws that seems deeply rooted in our personalities. But our brokenness does not mean that we are of no value or that He does not love us. It just means we have no choice about being sinners. We are born to sin. We are fatally flawedóa tragic lot, reallyóand God has staged a rescue for us. When we come face-to-face with Jesus and His sacrifice (which happens in God's timingówe can trust Him to order our days and awaken us to Him), if we humble ourselves and accept His payment for our incurable flaw and sins, we are no longer "in Adam". We are now "In Christ". Again, this is positional, not behavioral. Our transfer from the domain of darkness to the kingdom of light is a rescue God performs, and our being indwelt by the Holy Spirit is what makes us spiritually alive and which makes the literal change in us from being natural humans "in Adam" to people miraculously born from above and no longer "in Adam" but new creatures "in Christ". When we are "in Adam", God looks at us POSITIONALLY as inside Adam and his legacy. When we are "in Christ", however, God looks at us through Jesus. A metaphor that might help with this concept is thinking of a piece of paper hidden between the pages of a book. One cannot see that paper unless one opens the book and finds it. We are that paper inside the bookóas He looks at us, He has to look in and through Jesus before He sees us. Thus He sees us as completely covered with Him and His righteousness. He provides the supernatural rescue we need in order to escape our inheritance of death in Adam. The sacrifice of Jesus, the innocent Man and simultaneously God, is not a tragedy. Tragdies occur because of the hero's fatal flaw that is his undoing. Jesus was not a helpless victim of God the Father. Jesus is the Lamb slain from the creation of the world. He chose willingly to come and become incarnate in order to provide the perfect human obedience and sacrifice that was necessary in order to break the curse of the law. He laid down his own lifeóno one took it from himóand he took it up again (John 10:17-18). God arranged to rescue us from our doomed inheritance in Adam because of His great love for us (Ephesians 2:4). His mercy and grace far outweigh our own sin and inherent sinfulness. What I'm learning, as I study the Bible and begin to see it as a remarkably cohesive whole, is that we've been asking the wrong questions. We've been asking how God could hate us and have wrath against usóhow babies could be "depraved". But we've been seeing our lives from a wrong perspective. From a Biblical and Godly perspective, instead of from a limited human, three-dimensional perspective, the real question is really WHY God didn't just destroy Adam as He had a right to do after warning him he would die if he disobeyed. Why did God allow him not only to live but to procreate and to allow US to be born? The answer is also found in the Bible. Romans 2:4: "Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?" 2 Peter 3: 9: "The Lord is not slow inkeeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." Or 1 Timothy 2:3,4: "This [praying for our leaders] is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." And John 3:17: "For God did not send his Son into the world to condmen the world, but to save the world through him." There are many other texts also demonstrating God's great love and patience and kindness toward us. All I can say, Joyce, is that the way Adventism explained our depravity and God's demands was not biblical. What we were taught was heresy, and we were not taught that our natural "depravity" is positional, not a matter of worth. Further, we were not taught that God loved us with an everlasting love and that He personally seeks us and reveals Himself to us. He personally loves usónot in a general, transcendent wayóbut He knows our names and every detail about us. He wants to transfer us from our position in Adam to a new position in Christ, and this rescue is life saving and life changing. So, Joyceóthat is what I have discovered since leaving Adventism. God loves us, and He not only loves us, but He offers us a completely new life freed from our inescapable penchant for self-destruction. I don't mean to be preachy; I just want to explain clearly what I've experienced and have learned since you are taking the time also to share your thoughts in detail. Hope you had a great Memorial day! Colleen |
