| Author | Message | ||
| Bmorgan Registered user Username: Bmorgan Post Number: 87 Registered: 7-2000 |
Phillipians 2:3-8 NLT 3Don't be selfish; don't live to make a good impression on others. Be humble, thinking of others as better than yourself. 4Don't think only about your own affairs, but be interested in others, too, and what they are doing. 5Your attitude should be the same that Christ Jesus had. 6Though he was God, he did not demand and cling to his rights as God. 7He made himself nothing; he took the humble position of a slave and appeared in human form. 8And in human form he obediently humbled himself even further by dying a criminal's death on a cross. Colleen, I appreciate your statement above. I have found that the twenty six adult years in SDAism has left deep scaring on my psyche. I am thankful that people on this forum continue to show some of the many blatant statements in the writings of EGW. Perhaps the time will come when I will find this place too elementary or not serving me. I hope then, I will exit quietly and not personally insult others I disagree with no matter how strong I feel about a matter or what personal issues I am experiencing at the time. Right now though, as outrageous as some comments may appear to some people, who may be protective, sympathic or partial to Adventism, EGW or faithful SDA members, I still believe that people like me- ones still processing out- need to hear. What may appear caustic still need to be said, in my opinion. Often, healing comes with pain. The more I face what I have come from, the deeper the healing it brings me. I wish this venue(forum) was here years ago when I was questioning and struggling all alone. For now, I am glad I can feel free and safe processing out and moving on. I hope I am gracious to all but now I am offending some people. However, I hope I never come across as DEMANDING everyone posting to adhere to MY opinion or view of what I deem acceptable and credible. Thank God for His mercy and grace. Colleen, I am praying with and for you, also for this forum and all the amazing people posting here. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1696 Registered: 3-2005 |
I have not seen anyone demand that others share their views. I haven't seen anyone protest when any direct quotation from EGW is posted. I have not seen anyone who is in the process of leaving Adventism be stifled or ridiculed for their feelings. No one has protested the pointing out of the false doctrines of Adventism. All the bad theology of EGW and Adventism is clearly fair game. However, I am offended when the bounds of decency and the guidelines of Eph. 4:29-32 do not apply even to the things and people we are against. It is not the occasional overstatement that bothers me. The only things some of us are questioning is if use of words such as "satanic cult", "EGW--satan-worshipper and murderer" is appropriate for a Christian website when our comments are being read all over the world. I am not sure why questioning these types of comments is bizarre or divisive. And why are these types of questions about decorum seemingly attributed to Satan trying to divide us? Also, it appears the motives of some of us who are raising questions about these types of comments are also being impugned--sorry if I am misreading the above comments. I have seen Adventism at its very worst. My childhood was deeply affected by the effects of the abuse of Ellen White's writings. This stuff is deeply cultic. I want to see as many as possible examine the false foundations of Adventism and legalism. I am in no way loyal to Adventism or Ellen White. I am only concerned that our witness to our SDA friends and family may be hurt by some of the types of statements made. I remain committed to helping in any way I can to exposing the false doctrines of Adventism. I respect everyone who posts on this forum, and I see the great value in this type of forum. Stan | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 520 Registered: 1-2003  |
Randy, thanks for your openness and sharing of your life. God is working in each of us and it is important for us to value and nuture relationships even with those we might disagree with theologically. In fact while I have friends who are united with me in the essentials there will always be minor points which we differ on.  I will reach those who are mired in legalism and bound in denominationalism by the witness of my life and not through debate. I can have the "satisfaction" of being absolutely "right" and yet drive away the very ones I should be witnessing to. Thanks for being here, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1298 Registered: 10-2004  |
I do not wish to cause any more divisiveness, but I do want to clear up just a couple of things, having to do with factual and historical points. First, as Colleen has tried to point out multiple times, this forum is not a forum for witnessing, primarily. Second, I posted all the exact same things a year ago on this forum, only in a much "harsher" manner, without the objections and uproar that is now being expressed. If you click on the Search button and search the older posts you will find that that is the case, and that I have actually toned things down from a year ago. Therefore, if the forum is now "unsafe" because of a few comments I have made (5 or so posts in total, I believe, based on the phrases mentioned, but, ironically, repeated many more times by those offended by the terminology) recently, then it was more unsafe a year ago. And yet people were calling it a safe place back then. So I guess people were not able to be blessed by this forum a year ago? Honestly, that is what would have to be assumed. If it is requested, I can pull up links to posts of mine from a year ago, and you all can see for yourselves. But as for SDAs being offended, I would like to quote Freeindeed's post from a couple months ago:
Imagine what the loyal followers of the Scribes, Pharisees, and Saducees felt like when Jesus used harsh language about their leaders. I know that the language that some may call "inflammatory rhetoric" that is on Robert Sanders' (truthorfables.com) and Dirk Andersons' (ellenwhite.org) websites can be offensive to SDAs, and yet those websites are targeted towards SDAs! I know I was offended several years ago, but it only helped me realize how false EGW/SDA is and how I didn't have to be afraid of a false prophet. (See the "inflammatory taunting" of false prophets in 1 Kings 18:27.) But again, this forum is not even targeted primarily towards those still loyal to the SDA church, as Colleen said above. Jeremy | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1399 Registered: 7-2003 |
Ric, to answer your questions specifically, lots of people go to jail or get some form of punishment for not 'intending' to harm or kill someone. Physicians lose medical licenses over mistakes or pay huge penalties for medical mistakes, drunk drivers don't intend to kill, but when they do, they go to jail for a lesser form of murder called manslaughter. People who are careless while driving and kill someone can see jail time for negligent homicide. The parents of the child I mentioned went to jail for their neglect. What about the police officer who accidentally killed an innocent bystander during a criminal activity. Sometimes they get charged with a crime. Just because she didn't intend to kill or harm anyone doesn't make her harmless. If intent is what makes one guilty, then all those drunk drivers in jail for killing innocent people should be let go because they didn't intend to kill anyone. But as I said, I think the term itself is harsh for her...but her directions to her followers, if followed as given, are clearly dangerous. That warning needs to get out. I'm really not trying to be argumentative. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 545 Registered: 7-2004  |
Melissa, please point out a single post where I have said EGW was harmless. Just one. And you did not answer my question. A physician making a mistake is not charged with "murder". You have incorrectly stated that manslaughter is a lesser form of murder. Manslaughter is specifically different than murder based on the intent of the person. If there was an intent for harm or death, then killing a person in murder. If there was no intent for harm or death, then a killing may be manslaughter instead of murder. So if you want to continue to defend the accusation of murder you will still need to provide evidence of an intent to harm or kill. It isn't even a question of whether the term is harsh. It is a question of whether the term used to describe her is accurate. Until someone can demonstrate an intent for harm, the term "murder" is inaccurate and harms the credibility of those who used it, those who agreed with it, and those who by their silence implied acceptance. The verifiable facts about Ellen White should be enough to cause people to reject the authority of her writings. Unfortunately when those of us who are critics are unnecessarily inflammatory in our portrayal of her, or worse yet inaccurate in our information and presentation we may do more harm than good. Instead of giving people reasons to reject Ellen White, we give them reason to reject the information of all of her critics. | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 228 Registered: 7-2005  |
It just crossed my mind that because Ellen White pretended to speak for God, in the place of God, she sent by her false gospel many of her followers to a horrible fate in an everlasting hell, the most cruel death. There will be thousands who will suffer the eternal punishment, which is eternal death, just because Ellen White played God and dictated in the name of God what they must believe to be saved. I just tried to image how they will think about Ellen White and the fact that they believed her. Will they consider her a murderer? Just for my amusement, I tried to image some of them excusing Ellen White saying that she did not intended to send them to hell preaching in the name of the Lord her false gospel. I guess that nobody will care, being in hell, if Ellen White indeed had the intent, or not, to kill them eternally. And for those former adventists who will forever loose their friends, and relatives, moms, dads, sisters, brothers, it will be "nice" reminding them that Ellen had not the intent to kill by playing the role of God. Just kidding. Suppose that we are the parents who lost our son because the tithe issue. In time we had been blessed by the gospel, and we had been saved. And now comes the resurrection. We will look after our son, to see if he is saved or not. And suppose that he is not, that he will spend his eternity in hell. Comparing our grief when we lost our son due to lack of money, with the grief when we will see that he will be forever lost, what will be the greater? Will our sorrow for him now, sensing that he is lost forever, greater than our sorrow when he died without food? It's obvious, the latter. Because we followed the inspired teachings of Ellen White, we had lost our son because the lack of food. But, because we followed the inspired gospel of Ellen White, because we had been white-washed, we are loosing again our son, eternally. Perhaps we had not came to the conclusion that she was a murderer after our son died, but definitely will consider her a murdered, now that our son suffers the eternal death. Now I asked myself, what is more important? A temporary death, or an eternal death? If it's eternal death, and Ellen White is indeed a murderer concerning this death, it's strange that speaking about her as murderer in the context of the physical, temporary death, is seen as inflammatory. My belief is that, keeping the proportions, the accusation of murder in the domain of eternal death is more inflammatory. The question if Ellen White is a murderer in the physicall realm pales in comparision with the more important issue of eternal death. Losing the temporary life is almost nothing compared with losing the eternal life. The difference is infinite, it does not suffer comparision. For me the more important question is: was she a murderer speaking in the name of God, playing God? She liked to be seen as the messenger of God, the real voice of God. She clearly intended to decide the eternal destiny of other people, to play the role of God and define the gospel. And an important part of this gospel is to listen and obey her, because not listening and not obeying her "testimonies" was the same as not obeying God. She cursed everyone who dared to challenge her position as the voice of God. In more than one occasion, she ventured to say that those persons are lost. By her own authority she had sent all these persons to hell. She killed everyone who was opposed to her. Well, it's almost impossible for me to say that she did all this without intention. That she sent all her detractors to hell, without the intention to kill it's hard to believe. I cannot escape the conclusion that she was indeed a murderer, with the intention to kill. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 546 Registered: 7-2004 |
It has been brought to my attention that my recent post have made a majority of members here feel unwelcome or unsafe. That was the exact opposite of my intention in raising the topics that I did. To each of you that I have offended or made you feel less than welcome and safe, I sincerely apologize. | ||
| Freeindeed Registered user Username: Freeindeed Post Number: 28 Registered: 3-2006 |
Ric_b, Jeremy, and others, Ric, your posts have been especially helpful to me as I have begun my transition out. I can see that you (and others) have already gone through the process I am in the middle of. I always stop to read your opinions on a given topic and appreciate your level-headed, objective and scriptual/Christ-centered posts. I would be disappointed if you were to leave. I haven't been following the threads of FAF as much in the past month or so. We are in the middle of packing up our house in preparation for the transition. But I have skimmed this thread and the apparent "division" that has taken place because of comments made about EGW being a murderer through her "health" advice or because she was a false prophet. IMO, that is quite a stretch and I would have to agree with Ric_b that it is inflammatory and does nothing for "building each other up". Jeremy, you quoted a post of mine from a couple of months ago about how it took me being offended to search for the truth. That is true. However, through that process I came across many accusations toward SDAism and EGW on different websites that were untrue, unfounded, and ridiculous. I didn't go back to those sites. Calling EGW a murderer (intentional taking of human life) would have effectively sent me packing never to return. I'm in a different place now and can "handle" (or just ignore) the extreme views held by a few. But early on I would have been deterred. I feel that we all must be responsible for what we post and we should be held accountable when our remarks become inflammatory enough to repel the very people this website and forum are trying to reach or comfort. Freeindeed | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2549 Registered: 3-2004  |
I have been reading this thread and I really agree with Colleen. Satan will find our weak spots and use them in "Christian love" to hurt others. I have to remember that Jesus Christ conquered Satan at the cross. He is a defeated foe and he knows it. I agree there are many errors in adventism and I do believe EGW is a false prophet and that the church has many cult like beliefs, but ultimately God is the one who will judge everyone and I just have to remember that I am not God. I pray that as each of us puts a post on here that we ask God to give us the words to write. God will do that and more for us. We only have to ask. He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 229 Registered: 7-2005 |
John 7:19-20 "Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?" The crowd answered, "You have a demon! Who is seeking to kill you?" Matthew 23:29-34 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, saying, 'If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify" These biblical passages reveal the fact that the intent of killing others for religious reasons can be of such a nature that the person having it can be unconscious of it, even denying the fact that it really exists. The heart is deceitfull about her real intentions and often we misunderstand our real motivations. Matthew 15:19-20 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 547 Registered: 7-2004 |
I think that we are probably all guilty of murder and fortunate to be pardoned. Matt 5:21-22 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' 22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. James 2:10-11 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. Rom 3:19-20 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. God's law has clearly demonstrated that we are all guilty, Fortunately Paul doesn't stop there. 21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Praise God that He has a way of saving murderous sinners like me. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 719 Registered: 4-2000  |
Jacob, I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment about Ellen White sending people to their eternal death and damnation (e.g., she declared that several men whose only crime consisted of masturbation went into "Christless graves"). Now how extreme is that? Her false visions continue to be an embarrassment and a disgrace to those who have anchored their souls in the "Haven of Rest." Dennis Fischer | ||
| Freeindeed Registered user Username: Freeindeed Post Number: 29 Registered: 3-2006 |
Dennis, I agree that her false visions are an ambarrassment and a disgrace. I think we give her too much credit. Just because she said they went into "Christless graves" doesn't mean that they actually did. Freeindeed | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1700 Registered: 3-2005 |
Rick, That clear statement of the gospel you gave on your last post really blessed me today. That statement of grace was just what I needed. I also want to say that your posts over the past year have been a great blessing to me. The gospel of grace as taught by Jesus, Paul, and the reformers should be our primary focus. The more I dwell on God's marvelous grace, the easier it is to 'forget those things which are behind us, and press on toward the goal in which God calls us' (a paraphrase of Paul according to my memory). Sola Gratia. Stan | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 232 Registered: 7-2005 |
Ric, Indeed we are all murderers in our hearts, but praise God, He showed mercy to all of us. We all have enemies of the gospel. But God chenged our direction, making us His friends from enemies. Taking the case of Ellen White, she was an enemy of the gospel all her life, and only if she rpented on her death bed she was saved. The anger toward others which all of us have in our hearts was manifested in her life until the final years. Just remember the case of Ballenger. Freeindeed, you are right saying that just sending people to hell doesn't mean that they actually did. These words only reflect the intent of Ellen White, her desire to destroy her enemies. The irony is that not her enemies but her followers will be in hell because of her spirit and her false gospel. A couple of weeks ago I was thinking about Hitler. He pursued a restless war with his perceived enemies, the jews. He had some measure or succes, the holocaust, but at the same time he destroyed his beloved FATHERLAND, and he even turned against his people, saying that the german people prooved unwhorthy to survive. In the last days of war he ordered that the industrial infrastructure of Germany to be destroyed and only because the people had not carried his order, the german people had survived. Hitler was a man like us, with the same nature as ours, but giving his position and the fact that he acted constantly on his impulsions, this made him one of the most wicked men in history. Ellen White was a woman with the same nature as ours. But because of her position of authority, her scaring tactics, her false gospel, and the fact that she indeed manifested many times her anger toward other people, she become an instrument of our enemy, destroying people's lives. May God have mercy to all who were victims of her. My conviction is that showing love toward these victims implies the speaking of truth about Ellen White, and the real nature of her charcater. I recognize that indeed this is a thing that many are not able to bear, and we need to reveal these things at the time appointed by God. Many people are struggling with the question of getting rid of Ellen's authority in their lives. They see the false gospel, or the weird statements, but, from what I see, they tend to get over these things, and rationalize their remaining under her influence, taking it as basically good. This may cost their eternal life. It's a dangerous place, and sooner or later they must leave for a safely place. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1702 Registered: 3-2005 |
There are different ways of looking at our experience with Ellen White. I might have trouble, Jackob, comparing Ellen White to Adolf Hitler, although that may not be what you meant, but nonetheless, you are entitled to that opinion. But rather than taking the attitude that we have been victims of Ellen White, and yes I did believe that for years--nothing wrong with that in the beginning. At this point, I realize that God, from eternity past planned to raise up the SDA church and Ellen White. He even planned that I was made to memorize Ellen verses, and that her counsel would deprive me of a normal childhood, playing little league etc etc. However God also planned from eternity past that His name would be glorified even through the unbiblical SDA church. His grace has been made evident all the more to me because I was raised Adventist. And, it is only by God's sovereign grace that I could even write these words. My point is, that eventually, instead of always thinking that we have been victims of Ellen White, try thinking about the fact that God is absolutely sovereign, and that by planning most of us on this board to grow up Adventist, that He intende this for His glory. Think of the opportunities to appreciate the glorious Sovereign Grace of God even more. We have an opportunity to testify of God's grace, that He has delivered us from this system of bondage, so we can now appreciate even more the frredom He has called us to in His glorious Gospel. Stan | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 515 Registered: 8-2004  |
If you think about it we're all like Hitler in that we all need redeeming. We are sinners in need of a Savior. I'm so Glad that God sent one!! Blessings, Mary | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4038 Registered: 12-2003  |
You're right, Stan, about God being glorified in this entire reality of Adventism. As Gary Inrig said to one of our group several years ago when he drove to the church looking for hope and help as he realized what he had been living with as an Adventist, God allows heresy to grow so that God's people will return to the Bible and define truth. It makes them stronger than if they never had to identify heresy and root it out. To be sure, God be praised that we have so much clearer an understanding of His grace than if we never had been deceived. But there is more to it than that. God is glorified more than in our own lives. He is glorified because we who had to identify and reject heresy now see clearly certain dangers that are creeping throughout the church, and we see clearly certain truths about God which "normal" Christians have never had to grapple with. God is glorified not just because we can glory in His saving grace but because He is redeeming the past by giving us discernment and His voice to speak warnings and also Biblical truths to the church at largeóthings they might not see or understand without "bumping" into those of us who have been immersed in heresy and deception. Paul could never have written Galatians with the holy anger and clarity he used if he himself had not been a consummate Judaizer miraculously saved from his deception. Martin Luther would not have had that fire in his belly that energized him to nail those 95 theses to the Wittenburg church door if he hadn't been sold out to the soul-killing heresy of works and corruption and Galatianism before God sovereignly revealed Himself through Galatians and Romans. I agree with Jackob that because we KNOW that Ellen's "prophetic" opus has bound and continues to bind millions in the bondage of heresy, we to whom the Lord Jesus has mercifully revealed His forgiveness have the understanding and authority to warn others about the dangers, to call them to renounce the false prophet, and to embrace Jesus and His eternal Word. We are not dealing here with a misguided woman and some well-meaning but misguided men. We are literally dealing with heresy. Heresy sounds spiritual, but it literally deprives adherents of eternal life. From the earliest days of the church, God's people have risen up with speed and authority to identify and condemn heresy and to call their brothers back to Biblical truth and to personal submission to Jesus alone. Just as God condemned false prophets in the Bible, Paul also condemned the Judaizers and teachers of gnostic heresies and doctrines of demons. God has given us the unique gift of revealing the eternal dangers of Adventism and its foundations. He has redeemed our cultic past by His grace and has now commissioned us to speak boldly for Him, not mincing words for the sake of peace, but clearly declaring the truthóIN LOVE. It is not enough to know that I personally am no longer a victim of Ellen White. I now have a God-given mandate to declare His saving grace and the truth about Him and the dangers of the heresy of my ealier lifeówithout fear and with the clarity born of experience and of His Spirit. This is the call to each of us who has been rescued from the soul-killing darkness of Adventism. We KNOW the dangers and the exact nature of this deception. We are the only ones who can clearly speak about it and warn others of ints dangers. God is asking us to embrace His "reformation call" which He has always issued to His people since the church was first born in AD 33. We MUST speak. Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 548 Registered: 7-2004 |
Amen Mary! I had thought about posting the exact same thing and then I read your post. |
