| Author | Message | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 416 Registered: 10-2005 |
I thought it wouldn't hurt to post this FBI most wanted person who is thought to be an Adventist member in case anyone here recognizes him. He is accused of awful acts, so let us hope and pray that he will be brought to justice. http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/fugitives/cac/silsbee_wa.htm | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2563 Registered: 3-2004  |
Thanks. Lynne. If I see him, I will call the police. Diana | ||
| 91steps Registered user Username: 91steps Post Number: 46 Registered: 8-2005 |
Wonder how the GC is going to try to cover this up????????? | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2237 Registered: 11-2002 |
WOW! That is a heavy-duty list of infractions. Yeah, there are some scroundrals in every organization. I hope the SDA church sends out this flyer to every SDA member in North America and had the pastors put it up in the church lobby on the bulletin boards. I hope the SDA folks themselves help bring this man before the judge to be tried and incarcerated if those charges are true. | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 382 Registered: 2-2001 |
amen Susan | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 418 Registered: 10-2005 |
There are Adventists out there who believe Hell is real and God is just. Many in fact. Many Adventists just don't know the church behind the church. It is for those Adventists, and for the innocent that I pray for. Lynne | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 41 Registered: 8-2005 |
I use to visit a prison frequently. The people I meet seems mostly to be good persons - just like my self or any other of the team that goes to this prisonministry. I use to think that I could be one of the prisoners - if life had turned another way. If something had crossed my road that had made me come into a negative circel or spiral. I feel for this man - he has come into bad circles, but still a human beeing worth our love and in need our prayers. For the reason he done his crimes he could be an adventist or an atheist - life makes little differens when it comes to the man/woman behind a crime... But the mercy of our Savior is unlimited, unless the crime. Dinolf | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 420 Registered: 10-2005 |
Dinolf, I understand what you are saying, but I feel much more for the victims. I want this man caught for the protection of future potential victims. Lynne | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 42 Registered: 8-2005 |
I don't know if I understand this discussion correctly, but anyhow I add this reflection. Yes Lynne, I understand your feelings and encurage you to pray for, and take the positions of the victims. They need it and need to feel safe in our society. The man who done the crime also need our respect. Until he is judged he is to be seen as innocent (at least in Sweden there is no publication of any suspects before there has been a lawful court and comitted guilty). When judged he is to start a recovery period (the time in prison) where he is treated back to a normal life. That's where my prisonministry has its focus. I do not take away the penalty for a committed crime, but I care for the recovery process. We can also take the position to work against the tendencies that enqurage to crime. I assume this man has been tempted by a society full of sexual glamore and commercial interest in the sex industry. Most men can stand against this temptations, but others can not. This together with miss-use of drugs and alcohole can be the startingpoint for a negative spirale. We can fight these forces to make society a better place to live in. One organisations doing this is the xxxchurch http://www.xxxchurch.com I think we can help people to understand the real Jesus when we support any of these alternatives. Bless Dinolf | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4108 Registered: 12-2003  |
I'm convinced that no amount of social reform will solve the problem of crime. Only meeting Jesus transforms an offender. There is merit in certain social programs, but ultimately lives will not change unless they are born again. A dear friend of mine is going on a short-term mission trip to a Muslim country this summer. She's been reading books and attending preparatory classes in evangelism to Muslim communities. The most recent statistics show that the missionaries that have the best results are the ones that do not attempt to hide their identities. Instead of going in and integrating with the society, dressing and working with them and attempting to "become one" with them, when missionaries approach people dressed in their normal western garb and directly speak to individuals about the gospel, many more Muslims convert than they do if the missionaries attempt to blend in. This particular book (the name of which I cannot remember, but it is required reading for anyone going with this particular mission board) also said that the most likely to convert are those who are most earnestly trying to practice their own religion right. Those on the fringes who are cultural but not very observant are resistant to evangelism. Further, Muslims who are ripe to respond to the gospel generally have no aversion to becoming westernized in their lives. (Not that western ways are taught, but the Muslim responders do not resist western missionaries or their lifestyles.) Another significant fact the book discusses is that evagnelism happens best when missionaries are not in a hurry to develop an agenda. If people watch and see where God is already working and then align themselves with what He is doing, evangelism is much more successful than if they simply launch a program that seems good. All this is to say, God moves where and when He will. Our decisions to improve people's lives may be well-intentioned, but if we are working on logical humanitarian plans that are not part of a work of God, we'll have limited results. It's a very interesting paradigm for evangelism. Colleen | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 391 Registered: 2-2001 |
Colleen, it sounds like the summary is to be true to your beliefs and be submissive to God's leading. God's agenda and not yours. I would think that those who are trying to practice their religion sincerely would be the most open because they are seeking guidance from God and not a rule book of the culture. How can we apply these pricipals to our SDA friends? | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 739 Registered: 4-2000  |
This is a historical day (6-6-06)! If William Miller were alive today he would likely be very excited and thereby make it into a hysterical day(smile). Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4111 Registered: 12-2003 |
So true, Dennis! I heard on a radio show this morning (I'm sure a lot of you heard similar things!) that many women are canceling C-sections and induced labor today because they don't want their babies born on 6-6-6. Apparently some people theorize that the antichrist will be born on 6-6-6! Violet, it seems the take-home value for me of my friend's evangelism insights is two-fold. First, it confirms Richard's long-term observation that the people most likely to examine the truth about Adventism are those who are earnestly trying to please God within their Adventism. Second, it reinforces my conviction that while we should always be prepared to speak, there is no point in trying to figure out how to "reach" our Adventist friends with the truth. Unless God is at work already, preparing their hearts and causing them to desire truth, our efforts will yield minimal results. If we are alert to places and people where God is already at workócausing people to question, our efforts to awaken them will likely fail. Again, we should always be ready to speak, but when people are deaf to what we say, perhaps God is still doing behind-the-scenes things, and they're not ready to hear. We shouldn't endlessly engage resistant people in debate and dialogue about Adventism if they don't want to hear. Working where we see God working seems to be the key. Remember Jesus said the fields were ripe for harvest; pray that God will send workers to work in the field? He did not say the fields were not maturing and God wanted people to go and bring people to the point of harvest. Rather, the ripening is God's work; our work is working with those He has already prepared to be harvested. Even in "unentered areas", God prepares people to hear the gospel. One other interesting thing this particular evangelism book said is the there are MANY instances of Muslims having dreams of Jesus, of being prepared for the missionaries' messages by God Himself. We never need to worry that if we don't "do our job", people won't be able to learn about Jesus. He reveals Himself to people in His time. Then He sends us to each other to disciple and teach and nurture and support and help people to understand the truth about themselves and about Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection. We are the support staff; God Himself prepares people to accept Him. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2583 Registered: 3-2004 |
Every thing done in His time, in His way and on His schedule. We cannot change it or rush it or slow it down. Thank you God. You are always awesome. Diana | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 43 Registered: 8-2005 |
Colleen wrote "I'm convinced that no amount of social reform will solve the problem of crime. Only meeting Jesus transforms an offender. There is merit in certain social programs, but ultimately lives will not change unless they are born again." I have been thinking about this and there is something that I can't get - or maybe I just misunderstand it :-( I do belive that social reform work is a part of the Christian challange and dicipleship to follow Jesus. Jesus was indeed a part in that kind of work. As a Christian this is not a work to gain merits or salvation, but it is a work that is supported by the Holy Spirit and by that reason we can not determine when and how a person is changed. That is only something that our Father in Heaven knows about. I do beleive that the small opportunity that comes across our way can be a big opportunity for the person involved and be a step toward Christ. A few days ago I listened to a bibelstudy by Ruth Valerio, an angelical english woman. She did, by good biblical backup, argue to extend our responsibility to the whole creation, to take good decitions for an etical lifestyle. She has written a number of books in that area useful for smalgroup discussions. So Colleen, I hope I don¥t misinterpret you, and I do believe in the work of the spirit in prompting us in a random way, where every step could lead to a change. In a prisonministry that is something that is so apperent. God Bless Dinolf | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 431 Registered: 2-2001 |
The way I read what Colleen is saying is that we can have all sorts of social problems but until Jesus comes into a person's heart they are not truly changed. All you are doing is controling behavior for a certain amount of time. Even our courts are based on this premis. You swear before God that you tell the truth. To someone who does not believe in God it is an empty promise with no accountability. To a Christian you are swearing before your God and He knows all and sees all and you are held accountable to Him for your actions. Prison missionaries are tops on my list, they have a great opportunity to show hope in such a grim situation. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4222 Registered: 12-2003 |
Violet, thank you. You perfectly summarized what I meant! As far as extending our responsibility as Christians to all of creation and to making ethical decisions goes, God did place Adam in a position of responsibility to populate the earth and to subdue it. Humanity was intended to be responsible to manage the earth. This management, however, cannot approach the level of importance that the gospel has. Our commission as Christians is to make disciplesóand only humans qualify as potential disciples. If our efforts in whatever venue we work are not for God's glory, we are misusing our responsibility. Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 564 Registered: 7-2004  |
Colleen, I couldn't agree with you more that the only solution is Jesus. At the same time, I am convinced that a transformed heart will hate injustice just as God does. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4225 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, I totally agree. Totally! Colleen | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 44 Registered: 8-2005 |
About a changed heart when a person meets Jesus. Does this mean that a converted pearson really do not have any tendencies and struggle towards sin? Shure I know you don't say this, but to me it seem pretty close to the discussion about imputed or imparted righeoesness. In my view I stand for imparted r-ness and that means that even a born-aganin Christian do come into situations that is not what he really like to do. Maybe that is just the point - he realise what is wrong and take action togehter with the enpowerment of the Spirit and his faith in Jesus...Still - next move could be failure again - and again...That's where mercy comes in - right? /Dinolf (A foldback to the poor, by FBI, hunted adventist man. Who know his relation to Jesus - and his struggle against temptation...?) | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 497 Registered: 7-2004  |
Romans 7 seems to be clear that believers are saints and sinners at the same time. There is plenty of evidence in the life of most any Christian that there is spiritual growth and that we become more like Jesus. That could probably be termed imparted righteousness. Obviously no one reaches perfection in this life, but instead we are changed to "be like Him" at the Second Coming. At the same time, God doesn't wait until the Second Coming to start the transformation - He blesses us with changes in our earthly life. The important thing to remember, is that our salvation is NOT based on imparted righteousnes, how well we have cooperated with God in changing our lives, etc. Salvation is based only on imputed righteousness (Christ's righteousness in place of our own) and this happens the moment we believe. While most of us would find it difficult to believe an active criminal can simultaneously be a born-again believer, it seems that it certainly could happen. As humans we can't see what is happening in the heart or the process God is using to change that person. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4226 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great point, Raven. Dinolf, the bottom line reason Adventists have trouble understanding the new birth, the changed heart, and imputed righteousness is that they don't understand the nature of the human spirit. If our spirit is merely breath, then sin has nothing to do with "spirit". Sin is something we inherit in our genes. It is, then, essentially physical. If we have a spirit that is something apart from our physical body that can know God, then sin takes on a completely new definition. Jesus said in John 4: 23, to the Samritan woman, that a time was coming and is now here when men would worship the Father is spirit and in truth. "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth" (v 24). We must worship in spiritóbecause God is spirit. This word cannot mean breath. We worship in truth (cognitively discerned facts) and spirit (spiritual awareness and knowledgeósee 1 Corinthians 1 and 2). If "spirit" is not merely breath, then sin begins to make sense as a spiritual problemóa spirit disconnected from God even though we live in bodies of flesh. Jesus was the only human born spiritually alive, conceived by the Holy Spirit. He was never dead in sin as are all other humans since Adam (see Ephesians 2:1-4). He did not have to be born again in order to come to spiritual life. All the rest of us must be born of the spirit upon accepting Jesus. Even John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit in the womb to be spiritually alive. Our changed hearts are the result of the Holy Spirit indwelling us and bringing us to life. Our natural sin is then gone. We are born dead in sinóspiritually disconnected from God. The Holy Spirit brings us to life when we accept Christ. Yet our now-living spirits remain in bodies of flesh imprinted with the results of sin and destructive habits. As Raven has pointed out, Romans 7 explains that our born-again spirits struggle with our fleshly bodies. But our intrinsic sin IS gone. We are now dead to sin, because we are alive in Christ. But we still must make choices about whether to surrender at any given moment to the Spirit or to indulge our self-indulgent impulses. But, as Romans 8:1-2 says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus..." Imputed righteousness is that new heart resulting from our spirits being brought to life by the Holy Spirit. That fact places us In Christ instead of In Adam. God counts us completely righteousósinlessóbecause He sees us In Christ. The rest of our struggle with the body of flesh is the ongoing work of God in bringing us face-to-face, one step at a time, with our own brokenness, teaching us to yield to Him in submission to the truth about oursleves and to the redeeming power of Jesus at work in our lives through the Holy Spirit. Colleen | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 45 Registered: 8-2005 |
Raven: your outline is interesting and clear about Romans 7. The outline on "the law of Christ" in another thread was also useful. Thank you for giving this a clear view. Colleen: yes I do believe that there is a problem in how the SDA-church teach about a transformed life in Christ. There is much more in this question about a life in the Spirit as you point at. I would add that another problem is that as an SDA I am teached to be like Christ more as a person in the Godhead, not merely as the human Jesus.(Maybe the SDA background from Methodism and Puritism is one reason to this confusion?) I do beleive the only aproach to be like Jesus is to look at his life on earth, not to bring in any character of Jesus in heaven an so forth... To be practical I would recommend a part form the book "Kingdom Ethics" by Stassen&Gushee, IVP,(2003). They argue that all Christian ethics could be derived from the life of Jesus, and from the sermon on the Mount. They define the difference between legalistic rules and grace-based practices. S&G defines a concept where the teaching of Jesus can be seen as triads. For example: 1. Traditional Righteousness "you shall not commit adultery", 2. Vicious Cycle "looking with lust is adultery in the heart" 3. Transforming Initiative "Remove the cause of the temptation" There are 14 triads like this in the Sermon on the Mount and in every on of them there is a transforming initiative where Jesus teach how to start a positive spirale - to go for a better alternative instead of getting stuck in sin. And yes - this must be done with the Spirit indwelling us. So the transforming initiative according to Stassen&Gushee is something that can be helpful in all practice as Christians. Why just stuck to the law in the first step? God gives grace-based alternatives! This is just a short summary of a bigger context in the book, but I hope I catched the main concept. /Dinolf | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4231 Registered: 12-2003 |
Actually, Dinolf, I believe that Jesus did not come to be our example but to be our substitute. There are only two places where Jesus is referred to as an "example" for us. One is in John 13:15 when he washed the disciples feet before the last supper. He says that His act of service was an example for them, that they should do as He had done. The second example is in 1 Peter 2:21 where Peter says, "Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps." The epistles refer to Paul as an example, they call us to be examples to one another, but the Bible only holds Christ as an example in two situations: acting as the servant to our brothers, and suffering for God's will. Jesus' life redeemed our livesónot only by His dying and saving us, but he lived the life we cannot live. Jesus' role was to be our substituteónot primarily our example. I have not seen the book "Kingdom Ethics" by Stassen & Gushee that you mention above, but I do have a problem seeing the Sermon on the Mount understood in the context of the "triads" you mention. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the third stepóbut in the triad you give, does "remove the cause of temptation" refer to taking oneself out of the realm of temptation? (The Bible actually says to pluck out the offending eye and cut off the offending hand...) This is actually good advice, but I do not believe it summarizes what Jesus was saying. Jesus was saying that we must deal drastically with sinóbut he was also using hyperbole, I believe, because He was setting standards that were higher than any human could achieve. He was saying that a mere lustful thought was worthy of the most severe consequence. Further, in Matthew 5:27-30 Jesus establishes that lustful thoughts equal adultery. In verses 31-32 Jesus now says the only basis for divorce is adultery. He has basically established the idea that every man in the audience who might think of divorcing his wife is already guilty of adultery (and vice-versa). In other words, there's no possible way ANYONE can achieve God's morality... EXCEPT for divine intervention. Jesus took the law to a level of integrity and motivation that makes every human hopeless. But what Jesus was doing here was describing what kind of morality would become possible for all when He finally fulfilled the law. This level of morality is only possible when we accept Jesus' SUBSITUTIONARY life, death, and empowering resurrection. When we yield to the One who IS the law's fulfillment, His life substitutes for ours; His death substitutes for ours; His righteousness substitutes for our filthy rags. We simply cannot live according to the Sermon on the Mount no matter how we organize it into steps. We are incapable of instituting grace-based alternatives for our natural imnpulses. Those impulses, at any rate, are sinfulósubstituting a different behavior does not negate our sin. Our sin is only negated in the blood of the cross. Only by becoming born from above can we escape from the condemnation of God's moral requirements. I believe the Holy Spirit gives us new power and new potential to see our lives in new ways. He shows us how to trust Him and to substitute trusting Him for indulging our impulses. The last stanza of the song "In Christ Alone" sums up the reality of living in Christ: No guilt in life, no fear in death This is the power of Christ in me From lifeís first cry to final breath Jesus commands my destiny No power of hell, no scheme of man Can ever pluck me from His hand Till He returns or calls me home Here in the power of Christ Iíll stand Colleen | ||
| Dinolf Registered user Username: Dinolf Post Number: 46 Registered: 8-2005 |
Thank you Colleen. As evangelicals Stassen & Gushee stands for a gospel where Jesus for sure is our substitute. They also make it clear that the standards of the Sermon on the Mount are impossible for man to fulfil, that once for all show the Jews that the law was not a way to salvation. I canít refer to Stassen & Gushee and make their view perfect, so I recommend you to read page 125ff. A list of their 14 triads is on page 142. I think you got the principles behind the ìtransforming initiativeî correct. I would use the picture of positive spirals in life, i.e. good decisions that helps you to a better life. (But this life could never be a perfect life as long we do live here in a imperfect world. Jesus must be our substitute and redeemer. ) But isnít our Christian life ñ in the Spirit ñaimed to walk a life Christ already has done for us? A walk with Jesus being available for His will and the promting by the Spirit (Ef 2:10)? Not what we plan ñ but what He plans for us. If we walk with Jesus, or have Him as our example is a matter of using different words (and I am aware that my poor English plays me a trick sometimes in these discussionsÖ) The only way to see God is to see Jesus. And I do believe that people looking at Jesus would be changed ñ in a lifelong process, as have been the case in a lot of examples of Christian pilgrims who have walked before us. Take Father Damion, missionary on a leper colony ñ that gave his life for the poor, as an example. I think he would have sung the song from his heart ìFrom lifeís first cry to final breath , Jesus commands my destiny. No power of hell, no scheme of man. Can ever pluck me from His handî. I am also deeply moved by this song. My prayer is that God would guide even little me to a destiny of His will, no matter how big or how small. There is so many theological definitions and use of words. This is good, as long as it helps us to se the compassion of Jesus ñ and challenges us to pass it on to our neighbour. As born-again Christians coming from different context, like the SDA, we need to get loose from the language of ìCanaan ñ the intrinsic use of wordsî and face reality out there. The real life and a world full of needs ñ longing for the love of Christ given by someone that can substitute His handsÖ This came out more as a part of my testimony and my personal experience, than a theological point in a discussion. Hope it can give someone a positive hint. God bless you as one of His tools. Dinolf | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4239 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dinolf, your testimony above really is a blessing. Thank you for sharing some of your heart with us. I think I understand what you are trying to sayóand I agree that words sometimes get in our way. Allowing Jesus to change us and shake us from our comfortable habits of work and worship really does change us. When we finally realize that He is asking us not simply to look to Him but to submit to Him, reality becomes new. Submitting to His discipline and teaching is sometimes humiliating, but it is always life-giving. And God bless you, too, as one of His tools! Colleen |
