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Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 2238
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 9:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Were you aware there is a bill going before the house to be voted on that guarentees religious liberty to anyone who needs to take off holy time? I have read about this in various SDA publications. In none of the publications that I've read has an exemption been mentioned for emergencies or in the case of a small business owner. I did ask the local SDA minister awhile back if the employeer is SDA and the employee wants off Easter Sunday and the SDA employeer wants the non-SDA Christian to work on Easter then would he still be in favor of passing that legistation. He said , "no". I then asked him if the employeer was SDA and the employee was non-SADA and needed to come late to work on Ash Wednesday or leave work early on Good Friday would he think the SDA employeer should have to give into those holy times provisions. He said "no, absoutelly not". I asked him how come a non-SDA employeer needas to give into Saturday and Friday nights off to Adventists but Adventist employeers don't even have to make accomadations once a year for a non-SDA Christian. Get this, here's what the local preacher told me. Non-Sabbath-keepers don't think of Sunday or even Easter as holy in the same way that SDA's think of the Sabbath, therefore the significance of the time period is not thought of in the same way with the different people and no, totally no the SDA employeer should not be expected to give Easter off to his non-SDA employees. There has been mention of this written about in various SDA publications. Doesn't make too much sense to me though and frankly I hope the house votes against that bill. I just don't see how that bill would infringe on someones freedom of religion, not here in the USA. In this country we have the freedom to get a different job.
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 4075
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Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know that this is a pretty standard Adventist policy, even if it's unwritten. In fact, I clearly remember feeling that as Adventists, we had no reason to protect other people's desire to "keep" Sunday because Sunday-keeping was sin. In the same way I would not promote or protect drugs, alcohol, or tobacco, I would not "protect" Sunday-keeping.

I know that LLU, which employs many non-SDAs, essentially prohibits (or at least publicly prohibits) non-SDAs coming in to work on Sabbath. If they have an urgent situation, however, they do insist on the non-SDAs come in on Sunday, even if it is a church-day for them.

Colleen
Snowboardingmom
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Post Number: 100
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Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 10:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My dental class had about 8 Mormons (LLU school attracts a lot of Mormons because the lifestyle is so similar). It was always challenging for the Mormon students to try and get their projects done. Often, to complete our projects, we would have to spend countless hours in the lab to complete them on time. The weekends were our biggest "lab catch-up days". But of course, the lab was closed on Saturday, and open all day Sunday. Great for most everyone, except the Mormons. Their "Sabbath" was Sunday, and they were diligent about keeping Sunday like the SDAs keep Sabbath.

I always felt kind of priviledged to be able to attend SDA schools my entire life so that I wouldn't have those challenges of trying to keep Sabbath in non-SDA environments. I was very "nurtured and protected" within the SDA school system.

The denomination does a really good job of keeping us safe from "bad" influences, and making it easy to be good Sabbath keepers. In fact, they do such a good job, that you actually feel it's a blessing -- until you realize how suffocating and immobilizing that "umbrella of protection" really is!

Strange how your perspective changes...
Justdodie
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Post Number: 69
Registered: 2-2006


Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 6:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I remember when I worked at the Hinsdale (SDA) Hospital, way back in the early 70's. There was a woman working there who was Catholic. She offered to work EVERY Saturday in exchange for getting some time off on Sundays. No dice! They wouldn't even consider it. I remember thinking at the time how disrespectful and condescending I thought that was. You would think they would jump at the chance. Here was someone willing to work every Saturday, which would have given some Adventist person the opportunity to have their Sabbath off, but still, they wouldn't consider it. It made me realize that the decisions weren't made for practical reasons, or on the basis of fairness. They were made because we SDAs were 'right' and therefore deserved preferential treatment, while anyone who was of another religion deserved no consideration because their religion was just phony (or worse, of the Devil!). Talk about effective witnessing!

Here's another interesting story (and this was the main contributing factor to why I eventually left that hospital): I worked as a transcriptionist, on the evening shift (3-11 pm). My official work days were Sunday through Thursday, but in order not to have such work done on the Sabbath, they expected me to come back in on Fridays, work till sundown, then come BACK on Saturday evening after sundown and work for a few more hours because, of course there was NO day shift on the Sabbath. I was effectively working seven days a week. Not a full eight hours every one of those days, but my days were tied up and I couldn't go anywhere or make plans. Believe me, by the time I called my parents and they came and rescued me (I was only 21 at the time), I was pretty much a basket case, and I sat around their house for several months recovering before I was able to go out and get a job again. Part of the reason I allowed myself to get in this condition was because of my SDA training--you never question authority, you never stand up for yourself, you never just say no.

It took me many years to finally reach the point where I can do that. I had to reach the point where I was so desperately unhappy that I felt that NOTHING 'they' could do to me could be worse or more scary than standing up for myself. I was right. It's an awesome feeling to finally realize, I can make my own choices. I don't need the permission of the church, my father, or any other authority.

Joyce
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 4077
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Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 9:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joyce, I think you have touched on one of the "inside" symptoms of Adventism and of other highly controlling religions. I know that I was taught that my parents and my church were the authorities to which I must answer. Oh, I heard that God was the one I ultimately had to answer to, but most of the time I was to do God's will by obeying my immediate authorities.

This teaching is actually a classic method all manner of abusive systems use to keep people locked in. Children and "converts" are taught that God's TRUTH is embodied in obedience to the human authorities over one. They are taught a skewed view of reality that has nothing to do with Biblical truth.

It is a close deception, however, because the Bible does teach that authorities are given by God and are deserving of our honor and respect. The Bible clarifies that, as we mature, we are to align ourselves with God and His revealed will first, and honor the humans as a subset of our obedience to God.

Unless we see that God's will as revealed in the Bible teaches sacrificial love, parents not exasperating their children, men loving their wives as Christ loved the church, women respecting their husbandsóall within a framework of God's sacrificial love for usówe develop the notion that "submission" and "obdience" are automatic responses we must have for all manner of abusive "authority" figures.

Reality and biblical truth do not demand that we capitulate to evil. But the traditional Adventist framework does not equip us to distinguish between evil and good in a Biblical sense. If we were blessed to have parents with hearts seeking truth, we were spared some of the twisted imprinting. If our immediate authority figures were more concerned with indulging themselves than with truth, we may have gotten a skewed view of reality.

Colleen
Insearchof
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Post Number: 75
Registered: 8-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 6:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You know, it is really sad to read about accounts such as Joyce's and attitudes such as those expressed by the SDA pastor regarding the respect of Sunday for those so inclined.

I worked as a computer operator/supervisor/manager for a lot of years and was passed over for several promotions solely due to the fact that I did not work Saturdays. When I was (finally!) promoted to manager, I made sure that those that wanted Sunday off to attend church and be with their families got that day off - even if I had to work in their place.

How arrogant to think that as Sabbatarians we have a right to a given day off but those that feel the same about another day are not allowed the same consideration!

What of grace?

InSearchOf
Violet
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Username: Violet

Post Number: 385
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Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 2:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I worked at a local financial institution several years ago. The CEO was known for badmouthing Christians, but when we build a new building we were given the weekend to move our offices (personal effects, set up computers etc.) He made available us the opportunity to come on Saturday or Sunday as to accomidate church preferences.
You would think that SDAs would be the most accomidating as they believe so much is at stake.
V
Agapetos
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Post Number: 49
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Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 8:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think this shows one of the fundamental oversights about the Adventist belief that a Sunday law is coming. They believe a Sunday law would be wrong *because it is Sunday*. The real problem with such a law is that it uses control to solicit worship. God is not like that! God wants us to come to Him freely, not under compulsion. A law that bans worship on *any* day is wrong, whether Tuesday, Saturday, Sunday, or Monday. A law that *forces* worship on *any* day is also wrong.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4084
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 9:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ramone, I remember coming to that same conclusion years before I left the church. Mandated worship would be WRONGówhatever the day.

Colleen
Agapetos
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Post Number: 54
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Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 11:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isn't it interesting how God helps us see the *roots* of things? While in SDA, we focused on the day but totally missed the *root* issue!

When a friend was preaching at the SDA church here for the English worship service, this one lady stood up and pegged him with the question of whether or not we could worship on Sunday. My friend was basically cornered into admitting that you can worship God on *any* day! I say "cornered" because the spirit of fear swept through the room rather tangibly as soon as he said that!

I suppose the strict Sabbatarian idea is that you do *not* have the freedom to "worship God" on any day, but you must do it "this one day" only.
Justdodie
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Post Number: 75
Registered: 2-2006


Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 9:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I remember asking myself years ago, why we couldn't attend church on Sunday, but quietly and unobtrusively "keep" the Sabbath (i.e., don't work, watch television etc) during 'the time of trouble'. But I guess that was not considered honest enough. We were expected to stand up for what we believed in and then accept the consequences. But I always knew, deep down in my heart, that I would do whatever I had to do to stay alive. Not a very good Adventist, was I? I guess that's why I drifted away....

Now, I think about, read about, practice things spiritual any and every day of the week. It's wonderful. It makes every day special, and no day a burden. Legalism is such a prison. It totally misses the point of what a relationship with God is all about. And it totally misses the point of what GOD is all about.
Joyce
Raven
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Post Number: 480
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Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 10:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aren't there EGW quotes that say if a Sunday Law comes to pass it is permissable to attend church on Sunday and good to pass out missionary literature, in addition to keeping Sabbath holy? It's like a last ditch opportunity to convert people to worship the true God on the correct day before it's too late. Then I think she says the next phase will be the death penalty for attending church on Sabbath and/or not working on Sabbath, and that's when you have to stand up for the "truth" or receive the mark of the beast. Does anyone else remember about that?
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 4088
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Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, RavenóJeremy may be able to help us more specifically, but she did say that Sunday would be a great day to do evangelism. (Now I ask you, doesn't that sound awfully close to church? At least, evangelism in a tent does...)

She did say not to give the Sunday-keepers room to criticize us for flagrantly disregarding the day when a law is passed, too.

I don't remember sources or exact wording, but I remember wondering exactly how we represent what we really are if we're to appear to honor Sunday? You're right, though, about the insistence on worshiping on Saturday being the final testing truth.

Colleen
Jackob
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Username: Jackob

Post Number: 243
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 1:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

The light given me by the Lord at a time when we were expecting just such a crisis as you seem to be approaching, was that when the people were moved by a power from beneath to enforce Sunday observance, Seventh-day Adventists were to show their wisdom by refraining from their ordinary work on that day, devoting it to missionary effort. 9T 232




quote:

At one time those in charge of our school at Avondale inquired of me, saying: "What shall we do? The officers of the law have been commissioned to arrest those working on Sunday." I replied: "It will be very easy to avoid that difficulty. Give Sunday to the Lord as a day for doing missionary work. 9T 237.


Testimonies Volume 9, pages 232, 237

Give Sunday to the Lord, as the christians do calling it the Lord's Day! Sister White, why are you so hard on these christians and call them apostate?
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1319
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Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 1:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

She also goes on to say: "Take the students out to hold meetings in different places, and to do medical missionary work. They will find the people at home and will have a splendid opportunity to present the truth. This way of spending Sunday is always acceptable to the Lord." (Testimonies for the Church, Volume Nine, page 238, paragraph 1.)

And these statements totally contradict this earlier statement of hers:

"If the light of truth has been presented to you, revealing the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, and showing that there is no foundation in the Word of God for Sunday observance, and yet you still cling to the false sabbath, refusing to keep holy the Sabbath which God calls 'My holy day,' you receive the mark of the beast. When does this take place? When you obey the decree that commands you to cease from labor on Sunday and worship God, while you know that there is not a word in the Bible showing Sunday to be other than a common working day, you consent to receive the mark of the beast, and refuse the seal of God." (Evangelism, page 235, paragraph 2.)

So I guess she was advising her followers to receive the mark of the beast in those later statements!

By the way, I am not aware of any statements of hers that say that there will be an anti-Sabbath law. But I've wondered how the SDAs think they would even be persecuted due to the Sunday Law, when their prophetess tells them to keep the Sunday Law!

Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on June 02, 2006)
Jeremy
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Post Number: 1320
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Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 2:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I found an even more startling quote:


quote:

"Sunday can be used for carrying forward various lines of work that will accomplish much for the Lord. On this day open-air meetings and cottage meetings can be held. House-to-house work can be done. Those who write can devote this day to writing their articles. Whenever it is possible, let religious services be held on Sunday. Make these meetings intensely interesting. Sing genuine revival hymns, and speak with power and assurance of the Saviour's love. Speak on temperance and on true religious experience. You will thus learn much about how to work, and will reach many souls." (Testimonies for the Church, Volume Nine, page 233, paragraph 2.)




The sentence I emphasized sure sounds like a "Sunday-keeper" speaking doesn't it? And she said that it is a crime to "worship God" (not the beast and his image) in the quote I posted above--a crime worthy of receiving the mark of the beast!

Notice also how she wanted them to sing "genuine revival hymns" and appear to be mainstream Christians. I guess they weren't supposed to sing their Adventist hymns or change the words to the hymns. :-)

Jeremy

(Message edited by Jeremy on June 02, 2006)
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4090
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 5:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, Jeremy and Jackob. I KNEW I had read something of hers that advised holding literal religious services on Sunday.

The confusion is complete. Don't keep Sunday. Save your neck and APPEAR to keep Sunday. Situational ethics reign supreme.

The cognitive dissonance is so clamorous I can barely think...

Colleen

Agapetos
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Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 9:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The confusion is complete."

LOL!

That point about "worshiping God" on Sunday really brings things home. It's not who you worship, it's HOW---no, rather it's WHEN you worship, apparently. It's as if the practical belief is that God said "You may only worship Me on this one day, and none other."
Violet
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Post Number: 387
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Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 12:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, would that not be living a lie?
Appearing to be one thing just to save your neck.
Naughty Naughty of them ;)
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4103
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 10:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmmm...I believe you're right, Violet!

Colleen

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