| Author | Message | ||
| Brian3 Registered user Username: Brian3 Post Number: 50 Registered: 8-2005 |
http://www.jewfaq.org/holidayc.htm Celebrating the giving of the ten commandments and known to Christians as Pentecost. I just realized that this ties these scriptures together very neatly to me! Acts 2:1-4 NET. Now when the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like a violent wind blowing came from heaven and filled the entire house where they were sitting. 3 And tongues spreading out like a fire appeared to them and came to rest on each one of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit, and they began to speak in other languages as the Spirit enabled them. Hebrews 10:15-17 NET. And the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us, for after saying, 16 "This is the covenant that I will establish with them after those days, says the Lord. I will put my laws on their hearts and I will inscribe them on their minds," 17 then he says, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no longer." | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1322 Registered: 10-2004  |
Wow, I had never tied that all together either! Yes, that shows that the giving of the Holy Spirit was the giving of the new law--the law of Christ being written on our hearts. Thanks for sharing that discovery, Brian! Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4089 Registered: 12-2003  |
In addition, the Peter identified the gift of tongues at Pentecost as the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-32: "This is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sonms and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesyÖAnd everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Acts 2:16-21) This passage in Joel is attached to the prophecies about the early and latter rains (Joel 2:23). Adventists say Pentecost was the "early rain", and before Jesus comes there will be a "later rain" when the Holy Spirit will REALLY be poured out. Acts 2 completely puts this passage in perspective. First, the prophecy in Joel is talking about a restoration of the land, and those early and late rains are not directly referring to the Holy Spirit at all. Second, pouring out the Holy Spirit at Pentecost can't be trumped. God couldn't give us more of Himself than to literally indwell us. Pentecost marked the beginning of something completely new: people born of the Spirit and indwelt by God Himself. One reason Adventists never really taught us about Pentecost is that they believe the real church didn't begin until 1844; all that "old stuff" was preliminary. Further, without understanding the significance of literally being reborn and made eternally, spiritually alive and empowered by God Himself, they don't really know how to talk about Pentecost. Of course, the Holy Spirit was responsible for bringing people to spiritual life even before the cross, but the indwelling marked by Pentecost was something new. Jesus had to create the new, living way to the Father before Pentecost could have happened. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 61 Registered: 10-2002  |
Wow, so the Jews celebrate the giving of the Law at Pentecost! Awesome! God used Pentecost, then, to show that He was giving us "The Law of the Spirit of life" which sets us free from the Law of sin and death. This ties in nicely with what Dale Ratzlaff noticed, that after the Law was given in Exodus, 3000 were killed. But after the Spirit was given at Pentecost, 3000 were saved. I too used to believe the early/latter rain idea without really knowing where it even came from in Scripture! Now I see that Peter was saying in his day that "These are the 'last days'!" That would mean that the "last days" are not in the future, but that we are living in them now and have been living in them since Peter's day. It would also mean that the Spirit has not "withdrawn" Himself for a later "outpouring", but that He is as available to us today as He was then. He has not changed His 'modus operandi'. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2574 Registered: 3-2004  |
I have forgotten so much of what I learned in the SDA schools, that when I read of Jesus telling the disciples that He would send them a Helper(I do not remember the exact words or text) and then again when I read of the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost, I was amazed that we have that Helper now and have always had that Helper. Thank you God, that you are always with us. Diana | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 71 Registered: 7-2005  |
I have always been very frustrated with the SDA teaching about the Holy Spirit/Pentecost/Tongues/Early Rain/Latter Rain. I spent about five years in a Full Gospel church (read "Pentecostal") prior to my involvement in Adventism. I leared from directly from the Bible about what happened on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2, the gifts of the Spirit in I Corinthians and Ephesians, and the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy taking place in AD 33, not some day in the future. Then I went into Adventism and was very dismayed at how those scriptures were always filtered through EGW, such that the Adventist interpretation of my own personal experience of receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit was made out to be of the devil. Jesus said if you ask the Father for the Holy Spirit, He won't give you something else. I always knew I had received the Holy Spirit, but was told by SDAs, including my husband, that it was a demonic counterfeit. I believe it was the Holy Spirit that gave me enough faith and strength to endure 16 years of living "Soy Christianity." I know He has a reason for leading me into Adventism and leaving me in it for so long. I'm not yet sure exactly what that reason is, but I'm so glad He finally led me out. I'm basking in the beautiful, unadulterated Gospel of Jesus Christ that I've been hearing taught at the Presbyterian church I'm now attending. I feel like I'm on furlough. But since hubby remains a committed SDA, I can't get completely away from it. I know God has a plan in all of this. I'm just not quite sure what it is yet. But it's interesting to watch the furture unfold, knowing I'm cradled safely in the palms of His hands. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 63 Registered: 10-2002 |
I basically knew nothing of the whole Adventist latter rain belief until reading Ellen White's SG1 (which my former mission director felt was her "real" version of the Great Controversy). That began a hungry "pursuit" on my part to find out "where we had "gone wrong"... and I think I'm not the only one to go on that kind of search, looking for the missed knowledge or key that would restore us to the spirit, blessing and fruitfulness that we saw in the early days of Adventism. The odd thing was that somehow I (and others, I think) believed that when we found that key, that thing we were supposed to know or preach, that the "latter rain" would soon follow. Paul said to the Galatians, "Did you receive the Spirit by keeping the law or by believing what you heard?" We somehow thought that by keeping the law (or knowing the law) correctly we would receive the 'latter rain' outpouring of the Spirit. We somehow had to get the whole 'truth' in order to be worthy to receive the Spirit. Fun enough, God used that "hunt" to lead me to Him.  He led me to what we had missed---Christ, the Gospel. I had no idea that when I was embarking on my pursuit of the key of early SDA fervor, that I was beginning on a path that would lead me out of Adventism. It reminds me of how I realized I loved a certain lady after my same mission director told us separately we ought to "avoid the appearance of evil" and not work together at church for awhile. Would we have gotten married if he hadn't said that? Discovering that the Spirit is here and available now is earth-shattering, but it is earth-shattering because it is so incredibly humbling. I had to admit I was wrong and begin to see the Spirit's work and life around me and in me now. All the "glory" I had hoped for, I had to give up, and instead I have to let Him be Himself. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4095 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ramone, that last sentence is profound: "All the "glory" I had hoped for, I had to give up, and instead I have to let Him be Himself." This weekend Richard and I watched a DVD a friend gave us. It was of Shelley Quinn of 3ABN fame giving a sermon at the Adventist convocation held on the Ten Commandments Weekend in May. She spoke eloquently and passionately, explaining how the 10 Commandments were separate from the Law of Moses. She used text after textómostly from Exodus and Deuteronomy and some Leviticusóand she talked about Jesus having fulfilled all of the Law of Moses. She even said Jesus is our Covenant. As I was listening, I had to concentrate to follow her. I found myself thinking that if I were in her audience, I would likely have been zoned out. I knew she was ingoring many texts and using others gatuitously, but it wasn't really possible to develop a comprehensive statement about what was wrong with what she said. It would have taken time and great detail to unpack all her statements and show they were Biblically going "south" instead of toward truth. As I watched and listened, it suddenly dawned on me that 2 Corinthians 3:14-17 completely exposes what was wrong with her sermon. Her entire purpose, her central focus, was proving that the law is binding on Christians today. Jesus was thereóbut He wasn't the focus. The law was. Here is 2 Cor 3:14-17: "But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." It was a powerful recognition for me: one could argue with Shelley for hours, and the discussion would likely end with neither changing her mind. But seen from the perspective of the NT, especially this verse in 2 Corinthians, the truth is SO CLEAR. Preaching the law, however, eloquently and convincingly, simply dulls the hearers minds and lowers the veil over their hearts. Only when Jesus is preached does that veil come off! Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 67 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wow, I think that's probably the same lady my father saw and was telling me about. We've been having this study over email about the covenants, and he mentioned her, I think. The thing that really illustrated the law-focus for me was when I went with him to Central SDA Church in Phoenix, Arizona. I looked up and in the stained glass above the pulpit was the 10 Commandments. I'm told they have the same thing at Camelback. Granted, what you put in stained glass is not in any way a Biblical requirement anymore than stained glass is mentioned (not) in the Bible. But it does show what we look up to and esteem. Most Christian churches will put the cross or the dove of the Holy Spirit up in the center. Others will have Jesus, and Catholics will have Mary. But many Adventist churches......... Also, at my late grandmother's home in Phoenix I found this laminated poster, a bit of Adventist art, which had Jesus displaying the Ten Commandments on His left kind of like Vanna White on Wheel of Fortune. The caption below said, "Jesus' way to life--The Ten Commandments." | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 72 Registered: 7-2005 |
Do you remember this verse the Adventists quote so often to prove all other religions are false? "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20. This also demonstrates the law-focus of Adventism. In contrast, we have so many verses in the New Testament that show that our focus is to be the Law-giver, not the law, such as 2 Cor 3, from which Colleen quoted above. I've recently been pondering the verse that prophesied that there would come a time when the law would go forth out of Zion, or Jerusalem. Isaiah 2:3 says, " Many people will come and say, "Let's go to the mountain of the LORD God of Jacob and worship in his temple." The LORD will teach us his Law from Jerusalem, and we will obey him. (Clear English Version) Jesus came to earth as Law-giver to interpret for us the law he had given to Moses on Mount Horeb/Sinai. I'm now realizing that Adventism undercuts Jesus' authority to teach the proper application of His own law. How about the verse that says, "Now the leaders wanted to kill Jesus for two reasons. First, he had broken the law of the Sabbath. But even worse, he had said that God was his Father, which made him equal with God." John 5:18. Jesus intensified the requirements of 9 of the 10 commandments, but broke the 4th one Himself, yet remained the sinless Lamb of God. I definitely had a veil over my mind about this. In fact, I'm still kind of blurry on this. I'm trying to grasp just how small I've made Jesus Christ. Dale Ratzlaff's book, Sabbath in Christ, is very eye-opening to show just how severely blind I've been about Jesus as the Law-giver who taught the law's correct application from Jerusalem. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4101 Registered: 12-2003 |
HonestWitness, what a great sentence, "I'm now realizing that Adventism undercuts Jesus' authority to teach the proper application of His own law." You are so right. Very inisghtful post. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 72 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wow, I just noticed the NT fulfillment of that verse from Isaiah... "The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem" (Isa.2:3) "...and repentance of forgivness of sins will be preached in Hi name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." (Luke 24:46) "...you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." (Acts 1:8) |
