| Author | Message | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 70 Registered: 2-2006  |
I was reading on another thread ( http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/4330.html?1149078621 ) that Dr. Kellogg was accused of being a pantheist. I have recently read this elsewhere, that he was indeed disfellowshipped for this reason. So I wanted to ask, why is pantheism considered such a 'bad' thing? And not with just Adventists. I have heard that word referred to rather pejoritively by others also. Would not pantheism basically be just a way of referring to omnipresence? Perhaps this is where the definition of omnipresence comes into play: omnipresence as God everywhere present, except IN his creation. That sounds like to me that God is just in all the empty spaces where we and all creation are not. Does that pretty much sum it up? Joyce | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 71 Registered: 2-2006 |
Ah, I just answered my own question: http://www.websyte.com/alan/pan.htm Pantheism is "All is God". Panentheism is "All is IN God." Joyce | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 475 Registered: 7-2004  |
This quote which can be found at: http://www.watchman.org/reltop/changgod.htm seems to think that panentheism is closely related to process theology and that both views, in contrast to what the Bible teaches, believe that God changes.
I really don't know anything about panentheism and don't believe I ever heard of it before today. But the little bit of research I just did on it is automatically suspect to me because it seems very connected to New Age, spiritualism, and Eatern Mysticism type of thinking--all of which go directly against the Bible. Anyone have further information on this topic? (Message edited by Raven on May 31, 2006) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1717 Registered: 3-2005 |
Walter Rea claimed that Kellogg was falsely accused by the corrupt SDA leaders of being a pantheist. They were out to smear Kellogg's reputation in the same way the SDA church has tried to smear the likes of Ballenger, Canright, Conradi, Ford, Ray Cottrell--anyone who would dare challenge them on their false doctrines. Stan | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 72 Registered: 2-2006 |
Does anyone know of any particulars that Dr. Kellogg ever voiced or wrote, that could have been construed as belief in pantheism? Or do you think this was simply a trumped-up charge, out of nowhere? Did he remain SDA in his beliefs after being disfellowshipped? I find the story of Dr. Kellogg to be so interesting, and oddly enough, I never heard him spoken of except with high regard when I was growing up. So, it came as quite a surprise to me to learn recently that he had indeed fallen out of favor with EGW and had been kicked out of the church. Joyce | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4076 Registered: 12-2003  |
Raven, thank you for your quotation re: pantheism. Without being a student of pantheism, my layman's way of thinking about the quote you gave is that pantheism identifies God as being "part of", or substantively inside His creations. A Biblical view, on the other hand, has God being "other" than His creationsónot of the same substanceóbut the One Who maintains all life and order and in whom all things hold together (Col 1:17). IOW, God is the One on Whom all creation depends for life and thriving and progress. Pantheism, as you mentioned, has God learning and progressing and somehow dependent upon creation for His own "progress". Also, pantheism suggests that we honor creation as containing God rather than as an expression of God. Stan, you are right about Kellogg and his not being a pantheist. Several years ago I received a box of materials from a retiring librarian at LLU. There were old copies of early SDA documents, etc. Among these things was a transcription of the shorthand minutes of a meeting between Kellogg and Adventist leaders. This meeting was for the purpose of questioning him and establishing evidence against himóhe was a bit of a maverick; he had money and influence, and he didn't agree with Ellen White in all her dictums. At any rate, they took him to task for a pamphlet he had published which the brethren were saying expressed pantheistic views. Kellogg quoted passagers and defended himself, stating he did not believe in pantheism, etc. The upshot, however, was that the church painted him with the "pantheism brush" to discredit him. At any rate, while Kellogg certainly reflected some of the health nonsense of his time, he was not the heretic the church made him out to be. Interestingly, his brother W. Kellogg became the wealthy Kellogg cereal man. W. Kellogg had a large(!) estate in So California including stables of Arabian horses. The Kelloggs deeded the entire estate to the state of California as the site of California State Polytechnic Institute at Pomona. One of the Kelloggs' stipulations in deeding the property to the state was that the school maintain the horses and continue the horse shows. The school agreed, and one of its claims to fame in the community at large is its regular Sunday horse shows. The campus is truly beautiful and is the site also of Cal State's agriculture curriculum. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1313 Registered: 10-2004  |
What is ironic is that Kellogg said that in his book (Living Temple) he was trying to stay as true to EGW as possible. That he was only trying to teach what she wrote in her writngs. But because Kellogg had told people about EGW's false testimonies that she had written to him (such as with the infamous Chicago buildings false vision fiasco), EGW set out to destroy Kellogg. So she started writing lies about how his book taught pantheism and warning people against his book. She admitted that she had never read the book but said that Willie had called to her attention a few paragraphs and that her spirit guide had told her that the book must not be sold. Therefore, she refused to listen to Kellogg's brother Merritt. (http://www.ex-sda.com/merritt.htm) So it was basically a situation of Ellen trying to destroy Kellogg by telling lies about him before he destroyed Ellen by telling the truth. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on May 31, 2006) | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 44 Registered: 10-2002  |
I remember looking through one my LSU roommate's books... it was that kind of book about Adventist history that---while you're in Adventism---you think is just a history book about Adventism, but in reality it was written to defend the church & its beliefs & actions over the years. In describing Kellogg's departure from Adventism, they cited a conversation he had with someone who was examining his articles of faith. The examiner questioned Kellogg about the Sanctuary belief, about where God is now. Kellogg pointed to his heart and said, "In here". Kellogg said that we are now God's temple. The examiner (and the book) viewed this as clear evidence of his heresy. Interesting, no?  | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4082 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Ramoneóthat is interesting. It's quite amazing to see how history has been modified to make denominational points. I bolstered my courage and went into the local Adventist Book Center today to buy the latest version of "Seventh-day Adventists Believe" which now includes all 28 Fundamentals. There were some pretty amazing books about Ellen White. Two stood out; they were written to appeal to younger audiences. One was called, "Ellen White: Trailblazer for God", and the other was a companion book, but I don't remember its name. (It might have been "Ellen White: Friend of Angels". There was one book by that name there...) These books were illustrated with paintings of Ellen White, but if one had seen a photograph of her, one would never know these pictures were meant to represent her because they looked NOTHING like her (particularly one of them which seemed to try to make her look young). She had a pleasant face with none of the normal facial features that identify her. Furtheróand this was perhaps the most startling differenceóshe was painted with sparkling eyes and a cheerful "countenance", to use one of her words. It is clear, however, that far from trying to "bury" her, the ABC is actively promoting her, both her "writings" and also books about her. The lady at the checkout counter was friendly and helpful and asked if I wanted to be on the mailing list. I told her I already was, and she confirmed that fact in her computer. (I found myself wondering awkwardly how noticable my new Mothers' Day earrings were...) Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 477 Registered: 7-2004 |
Speaking of earrings ... I finally got my ears pieced today! Hope I don't regret the next few weeks of adjusting to them. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 46 Registered: 10-2002 |
That's funny about the earrings! The irony about Kellogg was that the editors of the failed to see the obvious: when they used Kellogg's interview, he gave a very Biblical answer and they considered it clear "apostasy". That the interviewer & the book editors didn't notice this is rather telling---they were so immersed in the Sanctuary doctrine that they couldn't notice Kellogg basically referencing Scripture. Colleen, I think I'd get a headache from climbing through any Adventist books... it's too depressing for me, haha. I remember once doing that and then opening Scripture afterwards and being soooo releived! Scripture was such a simple, refreshing breeze! In the beautiful words by Geoff Bullock: "I will never be the same again I can never return, I've closed the door I will walk the path, I'll run the race And I will never be the same again." | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 455 Registered: 7-2000 |
Yep, the SDA church is definitely working hard to suck the youngsters into believing in EGW. 'Friend of Angels' is one title of several that try to paint her in a very favorable light for younger folks. Oddly, the SDA church is also working to blunt her standing as one of the key founders of the church. I saw a biographical book at the last campmeeting that had Joseph Bates as the founder of Adventism. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4083 Registered: 12-2003 |
Raven, Congratulations! The day I got my ears pierced (about nine years ago, now...) stands out as a landmark in my life. A friend of mine who had previously left Adventism and was attending Fuller Seminary came to Redlands one day and took me to Merle Norman's for the "event". The young thing who did my piercing said to me, "I think you're the oldest woman I've ever done this to!" Thanks. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1318 Registered: 10-2004 |
Loneviking, I think you're right. They sure got worked up about the "Spirit Behind the Church" video calling EGW the founder of the SDA church. In their short response, that was one of the things they just had to "correct," and say that she was only one of three founders (her husband and Bates being the other two). Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on June 01, 2006) | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 526 Registered: 1-2003  |
Colleen, This, "I think you're the oldest woman I've ever done this to!" must have made your day??? <smile> Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 478 Registered: 7-2004 |
Basically I had nearly the same experience with the "young thing" that pierced my ears. First she asks which part of my ears I want pierced (as if it was an additional piercing), and I said the ear lobe, I'd never had it done before. She clarified about three times that I'd never had it done before. And she had that look on her face that said she found this absolutely unbelievable and was dying to know more as to how someone my age (40's) would be getting their ears pierced for the very first time. When it was all done she asked if I wanted a sucker! I thought about telling her I actually knew of a couple women who first got their ears pierced as retirees. In fact one lady is a lifetime Catholic who got them pierced for the first time in her late 70's. We're not the only ones! | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 329 Registered: 5-2004 |
I'm excited to hear how you adjust. Congrats on the pierced ears! I'm hoping to get mine done in a couple weeks when I'm done with work | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 479 Registered: 7-2004 |
So far so good, Esther. But while it's still fresh in my mind, I'll tell you exactly what you can expect painwise, in case you're as paranoid as me about that! My girls (who already have pierced ears) were trying to tell me it was only as bad as a shot. I really thought it had to be worse than a shot and they were just trying convince me to do it. The truth: it's more than a pinch but less than a shot. For one thing it's a lot quicker than a shot. Also, the medicine in a shot sometimes burns. So, I shouldn't have waited so long. Go for it! | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 193 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hmm... now you have me thinking, I too could be the first in my family to get my ears pierced. One ear, two ears, right ear, left ear...decisions, decisions... Thanks for the fun, Randy | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 74 Registered: 2-2006 |
I smiled as I read all these posts. I'm delighted for all of you. I got my ears pierced as a brash young 20 year old, still working at an Adventist hospital. I actually only got one comment that I remember. And now I hardly ever wear jewelry at all, except for a couple of rings that I never remove. But, isn't it wonderful that we can IF WE WANT TO?! And we don't have to feel guilty or self-conscious about it! That was such a hard thing for me, growing up and attending a public school--even though I never talked about it much, I always knew I was different, not like the other kids, because of all our strange rules and restrictions. It is always a delight to me on Sunday mornings to see our minister up there with her very attractive, fashionable and well-coordinated jewelry/outfits. Not to mention her long, perfectly manicured, brightly colored fingernails. I have always loved color, and it's so great to know that it's okay to enjoy it, it's okay to 'adorn' ourselves and feel pretty, and that doesn't have to mean that we can't also be spiritual. I just don't think that God created all these lovely colors, and all our artistic and creative minds if not to use them to produce and use beauty in the world. Joyce P.S. I acquired my non-SDA mother's much-cherished high school class ring upon her death and I very much enjoy wearing it from time to time. |
