| Author | Message | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 45 Registered: 2-2006  |
I'm sure this has been covered previously on this forum, but I'm curious: For all you folks who are no longer SDA, do you now believe in the rapture? I know that there are some Christian denominations who do and some who don't. Joyce | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2193 Registered: 11-2002 |
It never made since to me. I can't see any difference between what is referred to as 'the rapture' and how the SDA's teach that the righteous will meet Jesus in the clouds. In my opinion I figure I'll most likly meet my Lord and Saviour upon my death in this life and that is as far as I get with it. Good question though but I just can't figure out how it is any different that the SDA's teach. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3997 Registered: 12-2003  |
The word "rapture" simply means "caught up". Adventists use the word in conjunction with the word "secret"óbut there is nothing to suggest the two words must be used together. When Jesus comes to get us, we will be "raptured" with Him. That being said, many Christians do believe the church will be raptured before the great Tribulation. Others don't see clear evidence that the church will be taken out of the world before the Tribulation and believe the rapture will happen afterward upon Jesus' return. The timing of the rapture is not a test of faith. I like the statement Dale Ratzlaff makes: "Where the Bible is definite, we must be certain; where it is not definite, we must be tentative." The timing of the rapture is one of those less definite things. The Bible is clear that Jesus will come and take His own to be with Him forever. Exactly when that will happen is not explicitly stated. People on this forum hold differing understandings of the rapture's timing. Unlike Adventism, however, Christianity in general does not view eschatology as an issue to divide over. The nonegotiable aspects of it are Jesus' certain return, the resurrection, His taking His people to be with Him physically forever, and the punishment of the wicked. Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2195 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dear Colleen, Your last sentence sounds like the Apostle's Creed. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 463 Registered: 7-2004  |
It probably wouldn't be accurate to blanketly say "former SDA's now believe in the secret rapture." I'm sure that just as former SDA's have processed into a myriad of different churches, end-time views are probably just as varied. From what I've seen, the most common end-time viewpoint for a former SDA is that it doesn't have to be clearly defined and it's okay to recognize it will all work at as God intended it to and we don't have to know exactly how that will be. Personally, I can't accept the view of a secret rapture if that view allows for a second chance for those left behind. That second chance doesn't seem Biblically supported to me. Whatever end-time view is correct, I'm glad it's not one of the essential Christian doctrines. | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 375 Registered: 2-2001 |
I am not sure how I stand on this subject. I spent several months listening to David Jerimiah teach on Revelation. His take on it (if I understood him correctly) was that the church will be raptured and then God deals with the Jews. It is not a second chance for anyone else. Don't know just another opinion, but he has made more since than anyone else at being able to link all the texts I am familiar with about the second comming. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2547 Registered: 3-2004  |
Like you Raven, I don't have to understand any end time views. It is most important that I know Jesus and He will take care of all end time happenings. He will also take care of me through those times. I am no longer fearful of them. They are not a salvation issue. For that I am extremely thankful. As always, God, You are awesome. Diana | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1400 Registered: 7-2003 |
Violet, you are correct in your statement regarding David Jeremiah, and I think he is pretty typical for the pre-trib, pre-millenial view .... there is no "second chance" for anyone. As one who was raised in more dispensationalist forms of escatology than not, that statement of criticism always confounds me because I've never heard of anyone getting a second chance, and have actually heard just the opposite in that view of the end times events, there is no second chance. And most I've personally heard kindof joke that their post-trib friends will say "I told you so...." if their understanding is correct, and the pre-trib says they will say "I told you so" if their understanding is correct. I know that attitude is not prevalent amongst all people who disagree, but I think it is the correct one to have. Personally, the more I learn about all the different views, I realize it just depends upon how you read certain symbolisms and whether certain events really "fulfill" certain prophetic "signs". I'm of the mind I'll be "ready" regardless of my person leanings on any particular view. None of us are promised tomorrow. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4021 Registered: 12-2003 |
Melissa, your summary is poignant: "I'm of the mind I'll be "ready" regardless of my person leanings on any particular view. None of us are promised tomorrow." It is a great relief to me not to have to KNOW how it will be! I do want my focus to be Jesus moment-by-moment. I'm finding that the certainty that He will never leave me, that no matter what I'm doing I can stop and talk to Him and praise Him and just experience His presence (something I can't explain but which has become real), the less fearsome the future is. He is good!ónot tame, as CS Lewis says of Aslanóbut good. Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 284 Registered: 3-2005 |
I personally like Hank Hanagraaf's (and others)view that the Great Tribulation already happened --that it was the desecration of Jerusalem in AD 70, which would date Revelation earlier than AD 70. (apparently some manuscript evidence points in that direction) I know there's a lot of debate about it, but having come from such fear over end time events, I'm happy to rest in this idea.  Patria | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1719 Registered: 3-2005 |
Patria, I agree with you. I think the next great event of any prophetic significance will be the glorious return of Christ. Stan | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 72 Registered: 4-2006  |
I grew up believing in a Pre-trib Rapture and of course the #1 priority is to be ready when ever. But I love Bible prophecy and it's fun to study and discuss. The three most common stances are pre, mid and post trib. But scripture says the Church will be taken out before the Wrath of God. Many people consider the Wrath to be the entire Tribulation or others the second half of the Tribulation. However, the Wrath begins when the seals are broken sometime during the second half. We still won't know exactly when that is to come but we will know when the Tribulation starts in that it will be the day the Anti-Christ signs his 7 year pact with Israel. So, in keeping with 2Thes 2:3-4 he will be revealed to the Church prior to the Rapture. A great book on Pre-Wrath Rapture is "THE SIGN" by Robert Van Kampen. Again, it's fun to discuss and study and we all have are beliefs as to timing. The important thing is to be ready on that glorious day. CW | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 45 Registered: 10-2002  |
It was interesting some years ago when "Left Behind" came out. The Adventist Review (I think) published an article on the cover about it, saying something like, "A popular new movie says you will get a second chance---is it true?" The approach that Adventists took towards the pre-trib Rapture theory was that it was appealing because you could have a second chance. In other words, Adventists looked at it as a theory made to excuse sinning. But for those who believe the pre-trib Rapture, this is not the case at all. They *do not* want to be "left behind"! From what I understand, most typically believe that "the tribulation" will be terrible. The pre-trib rapture theory is one that tells them that God will take them away before the difficult things come. Some years ago in China there were churches teaching both views, (pre-trib) rapture and non-rapture (that suffering will come but God will carry you through). When the communists won the revolution and began to persecute & destroy churches, many believers who'd been taught the rapture turned on their faith and turned on their pastors because their pastors had taught them that they would escape the difficult things. But those who had not been taught the rapture went into the underground church, and when they found their pastors later, they thanked them. My answer to the pre-trib rapture theory is essentially Psalm 91 and Psalm 46. Beyond that... Christ said that He would come at the trumpet sound, and Paul said that we would be raised at the trumpet-----the *last* trumpet. That would be the *seventh* trumpet. Rapture theory is relatively young, having been around for less than two-hundred years, I believe. But the historical Christian approach has been a willingness to go into the fire and face martyrdom, not a desire to escape "wrath" (because Christ has taken our wrath), but rather a desire to intercede for and even lay down our lives for those who don't yet know Him. The "wrath" that comes on the earth is not something that can harm us---what's the worst that can happen? Death? But for us "to die is gain"!! There is no reason for us to fear "wrath" because Christ has taken it for us. The only "wrath" we need fear is the final lake of fire. If we are in Christ today, His love will drive out our fear of punishment & torment. Finally, I pray that we can begin to see that Revelation is *about Christ*. It's "The revelation of Jesus Christ". When Adventist, we tended to study it like studying for the SAT tests---like you'd better know or else...! You'd better "get ready"! Much of rapture-preaching in non-SDA churches tends to follow the same kind of belief (not ironic, since both the pre-trib rapture and Adventism had their boom in the 19th century). The bottom line is that Christ has passed the test for us and He will keep us safe in Him. It's not about "being ready"... it's about being *with Christ* now, about communing with Him through His Spirit who lives in us now. This is why the apostles were not afraid of death and didn't worry about "being ready"... by the Spirit they knew they were with Christ now, in death, and after death. The focus is not on *us* and how ready we are, but the focus is on relationship with God. Revelation is a book that is not about Israel, not about "the Anti-Christ", and not about "what you need to know" to make it through the last days (or "what you need to know" to avoid tribulation... Christ said that we will have tribulation, but not to be afraid because He has overcome the world). The Gospel declares that Christ has saved us by *His* knowledge (Isa.53:11), not by how much we know about Him & whatever events. This salvation will not change, not today, yesterday, nor tomorrow. Revelation is about Jesus Christ, and when we interpret Revelation through the New Covenant Gospel, we'll find that the book is beautifully dripping with witness to Jesus and how we are saved in Him. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 47 Registered: 10-2002 |
Oh, it's also interesting to recognize the passover in Egypt is a picture of the final judgment: Those who have the blood on the doorposts of their heart are "passed over" by the angel of death, of wrath. (Again, see Ps.91) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 731 Registered: 4-2000  |
Agapetos, Thank you for the encouraging, Bible-based thoughts on last day events. Former Adventists have a rightful tendency to take a dim view of the rapture theory due to the Scottish, teenage visionary, Margaret MacDonald, who supposedly verified its truthfulness in a 1832 vision. We certainly don't want to trade in Ellen for Margaret. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4085 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ramone, I also thank you for your thoughts about the pre-trib rapture. I also tend not to see a pre-trib rapture in the Bible. I do see plenty of promises that God will sustain and walk with us through whatever we face. As you pointed out, historically Christians were not spared extreme suffering. The leader of the first women's small group Bible study I attended at our church is a young woman with a degree in bio-chemistry who works as a trade-show planner for a large corporation (an odd juxtaposition of training and practice, but I say this by way of letting you know she's not an "air head"). She has a great phrase for this future mystery: "Pray for pre; plan for post." It always makes me grin! Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 286 Registered: 3-2005 |
CW: Thanks for your thoughts. I agree that it's fun to discuss and debate over. I'm going to Calvary Chapel in Phoenix next weekend, and I'm planning on picking Mark Martin's brain..if he'll let me, that is. Patria | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 55 Registered: 10-2002 |
As an aside, the message to the church in Philadelphia ("I will keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth") is often cited by pre-trib theorists. But I just put that together with a verse that I think is talking about the same thing: "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them." (Rev.14:13) And I think these verses from Isaiah speak of the same thing: "The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. Those who walk uprightly enter into peace; they find rest as they lie in death." (Isaiah 57:1-2) | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1720 Registered: 3-2005 |
Speaking of Calvary Chapel, Patria, it is this movement in particular that specializes in the importance of the pre-trib rapture. You have to believe in it to be a pastor. As much as I love to hear many of the pastors on the Calvary Chapel radio station, most of the sermons I hear are permeated with this pre-trib gospel. Some of them do acknowledge that you get a second chance if you miss the rapture. As Ramone was saying, this pre-trib rapture doctrine is a late doctrine in Christianity, and it should give us pause that another lady visionary that Dennis mentioned above had a vision confirming the "truth" of this doctrine. Stan | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 732 Registered: 4-2000 |
Here is an excellent exposition about the pre-trib gospel: www.dEmEnTiA/tarkowski.ed-dd-01.html Dennis Fischer |
