| Author | Message | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 80 Registered: 4-2006  |
I have never started my own new thread before but I can use some input here from you kind folks. I had not really seen my daughter D for a couple of weeks although we had one or two enjoyable phone conversations. As long as SDA does not come up they are usually enjoyable. However, yesterday I was at her grand mother's home (where D is living while working and going to school nearby) and two Mormon missionaries came to the door. It seems she had invited them back from the previous day because she enjoys sparring with them. Long story short--I mentioned that I usually just politely turn them away from my door. She then said "they are so works oriented". My response was "but D so is SDA and they both follow false prophets". Prior to saying that I had said I really didn't want to spoil our first time together in a while with a discussion like this. But I felt that God not only opened the door for a discussion but that He virtually kicked me through it. In these discussions her question is always "do you think J, her boyfriend, is not saved?" My answer is always "I think he is." My next comment is always "it's not J's salvation that's being challenged here, it's MY salvation that I feel is challenged by his doctrine." She says-and I'm sorry to bore you all with this dialogue but it's where I need your input-"do you think he would go with a non-Christian girl?" My response to that is that she has made it very clear that she will join the SDA church if it comes to marriage so "yes, a non SDA girlfriend is fine as long as you become SDA at marriage". Am I right in all this so far? I offered in a later e-mail to her when I got home the following: Forward this e-mail to J and/or his parents. Show me in writing where SDA doctrine allows me to be part of the Remnant Church without being a Sabbath Keeper. Otherwise I see you teaching my future grandkids that your mother and I will not have a place in Heaven. This is a greatly shortened version but my question to you folks is am I wrong in my understanding of SDA doctrine? As a non-former I do not have your knowledge and experience in this. I want to put the question to J that will force him to look me in the eye and say "yes, I (J) am part of the Remnant Church and on my way to Heaven, and you (CW) are not". I only want him to say that if that is truly his understanding however. Question---am I understanding SDA doctrine correctly? If so, how do I word the question to force an honest response to it. I am tired of the spin I get from them. CW | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 485 Registered: 7-2004  |
Unfortunately, it's next to impossible to avoid the spin! The facts are, yes, that is exactly what original SDA doctrine teaches -- that if you come to know of the "Sabbath truth" and reject it, you are lost. If you act in ignorance, then God will have mercy on you. (Although EGW says people will be judged for what they could have known.) I'm pretty sure that's still official doctrine. However, and here's the spin... I have heard so many times from SDA's who don't want to offend non-SDA's, that actually the Sunday/Sabbath issue is not yet a testing point and won't be until the "Sunday Law" passes. Since "keeping Sunday" is not yet the mark of the beast, then you're safe for now. | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 394 Registered: 2-2001 |
Cw, According to way I was taught in SDA schools-- Everyone is held accountable for the light you have. So if you have knowledge that the Sabbath is to be observed and you do not keep it then you will not be saved. So if you pose the question "You have given me the light that Saturday is the Sabbath and I am refusing to keep it holy if probation closed today and Jesus came would I be saved not keeping the Sabbath?" The problem is no matter how you pose even the most direct question they seem to wiggle out of it. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2586 Registered: 3-2004  |
Cw, The SDAs are all over the map, because even thought the official church doctrine is one thing, individual members, individual pastors believe something else. Now if J's parents were hard core historical SDAs, he would not have gone to a Christian school that was not SDA. Plus he would not date a girl that is not SDA. So, Traditionally, what you say is correct, but not all SDAs believe that way. As Violet said above, they will put some kind of spin on it and wiggle out of it. You can ask any way you want and they will spin it and wiggle out. You could ask if as an Adventist they believe that the Sabbath....... Or you could ask, I understand that some Adventists believe this.....and ask your question. Tell them you want to know the truth, from the Bible, so you can be informed. I will be praying for you and your daughter. Never forget, God is awesome and He is in charge. Diana | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 430 Registered: 10-2005 |
CW, Hopefully your educated, open, and loving words will make your daughter think. I think it is great that you are coming right out with what you are thinking and what others have told you SDA is about. It will put a kink in the Adventist process that is slow, metholodical, deceptively interceptive, and filled with lies. I think it would hurt her more if you didn't pose thought provoking questions directly. It is the SDAs that are being are being deceptive and indirect with her. It is the nature of the culture of that religion. We can all pray for your daughter that your words will keep coming back to her. That the Holy Spirit will someday convict her. Processes sometimes take time. When I first saw Mark Martins Website, the way everything was spelled out on the front page just jumped out at me. It was direct. Directness is the opposite of deceptiveness. I think you are right on track. Lynne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4128 Registered: 12-2003  |
Cw, I agree that your questions to your daughter are good. And all these answers are right: they will spin it. I think the only question they might have trouble answering is this: "If you, personally, were to abandon the seventh-day Sabbath, would you be saved?" But even that they would probably spin. There is truly an unspoken but active principle of "insider understanding and knowledge". Your daughter will NOT be taught the real truth about Ellen White, the investigative judgment and the unfinished work of Christ, that while she may be "saved by grace" she will have to "stay saved" by obedeince (read that keeping Sabbath), etc. Only once people are inside do these things begin to become more and more clear. It's reminiscent of the Mormon doctrines which the neophytes do not know, but which, as one progresses toward being a temple Mormon, begin to be introduced. Yet all those unknown doctrines ARE part of Mormonism and completely shape and determine the nature of all of itóeven at the superficial levels. Colleen | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 81 Registered: 4-2006 |
Thank you all for your input. Colleen, I will remember your question. That would probably be a hard one for them to answer. And Lynn, that's kind of what I need to hear because I left there yesterday in a funk about what happened. But on my way home, about a 60 mile drive, I was praying, and probably whining as well, to God. I felt he was saying "but I opened the door for you and I expected you to use it". I just sometimes feel that I am too outspoken and dogmatic. As I told D though-as far as I know there is not another person on this planet warning her of her direction and as her father I feel I have not only the right but the God-given duty to warn her. I have gotten better about not forcing my thoughts on her but this time it was not my doing. Thank you all and I value your input more than anyone else I know. Like I've said before, 95% of us non-formers don't know the first thing about SDA. CW | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2594 Registered: 3-2004 |
Cw, I do not know if you read some where here on the forum about the minister of the local Community Christian Church. He rents his church to the SDAs. The sign in front, on Saturday, says "Living Water Fellowship". Nothing there about SDA. I had been wanting to tell him about SDAs. A week before Resurrection Sunday, I was impressed to go to church there. The pastor greeted me before the service began. After the service, as we were walking out, I asked him who rented the church on Saturdays. He said "seventh day adventist, they are evangelical, except for their worship day." So I told him I was a former SDA and told him of the IJ, EGW and said I would bring him some books written by former SDA ministers. My house is 5 minutes from the church, so I drove home, got some books I have there by D. Ratzlaff, took them to the pastor. So that is one more Christian pastor that now has some knowledge of what the SDA church teaches. Last September I gave my pastor 6 books written by various former SDA pastors, so he and the other pastors there would know what SDAs really teach. God led me those days. Diana | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 299 Registered: 6-2001  |
My SDA inlaws go by the "you will be held accountable according to the light you have been given" rule and say that I will go to heaven when I die if I know Jesus. My husband, on the other hand, they do not think will go to heaven. However, his logic is, he, although once SDA, is also living up to the light he was given, which (hehe) wasn't enough to convince him to remain SDA. Inlaws don't have much to say about that! Cheekily, Hannah | ||
| Lori Registered user Username: Lori Post Number: 39 Registered: 11-1999 |
A booklet available online may help you....."The Truth about the Seventh day Adventist Truth". http://www.ratzlaf.com/Truth%20About%20Truth%20for%20PDF.pdf#search='questions%20to%20ask%20SDA' You can also find it by keying in "Questions to ask SDA" on your search engine. Here are some questions they recommend you ask in order to determine their particular beliefs: 1. Do you believe that the writings of Ellen White are a continuing and authoritative source of truth? 2. Do you believe that the SDA church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy? 3. Do you believe that the seventh-day Sabbath is the seal of God for all new covenant Christians? 4. Do you believe that Sunday worship is, or will become, the mark of the beast? 5. Do you believe in the 1844 investigative judgment doctrine? 6. Do you hold that Christians who believe the soul or spirit goes to be with the Lord at the point of death are living under one of Satanís great delusions? 7. Which is correct: faith in Christ + good works = salvation, or faith in Christ = salvation + good works? These are very direct and limit the Adventists ability to side step the question. However, no questions will pull the truth out of those adventist who are chronic liars about what they believe. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 744 Registered: 4-2000  |
Lori, Excellent concluding sentence! SDA apologists prey upon one's ignorance of Adventist dogma. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Lars Registered user Username: Lars Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2005 |
Our daughter was recently browsing the NAD web site and decided to submit a couple of questions for the consideration of the brethren there. 1) Is SDA a mainstream Christian Protestant church? 2) What is the official SDA stand on abortion? The following is the response she received: "Dear _______, as a retired director of the Adventist Biblical Research Institute I have been invited to respond to your comments taking exception to the idea of Adventists as mainstream Protestants. First, we need to know what you mean by mainstream. You may be unaware that virtually nothing Adventists believe is unique with us, for we draw extensively on biblical teachings identified in the Protestant Reformation. Are you aware that several of the 16th century reformers, Including Luther, Savonarola, Huss, and Calvin all discussed the second advent of Christ as believers? They knew that His coming is imbedded in the fourth century Nicene Creed, and the reformers were convinced His return was not far distant. Factual evidence may be found in L E Froom's book, Prophetic Faith of our Fathers, Vol. 3, where there are extensive quotations from the reformers. With respect to observance of the Sabbath, in the time of Luther many in the Anabaptist group advocated Sabbath observance. These are the group from which we now have the Baptists, Mennonites, and United Church of Christ (now merged with the Methodists as the United Methodist Church). It was the Anabaptists' intention to return to the New Testament church as the model for all Christians, something that neither Luther nor Calvin advocated. The Anabaptists insisted on believers' baptism and freedom of choice in religion, apart from the influence of the state. Thomas Jefferson's intercession for Baptists, at that time a small group in the early U S states, led to inclusion of separation of church and state in the U S Constitution. In fact it was from the Seventh Day Baptists that Adventists learned of Sabbath observance as part of the New Testament model. The teaching of an end-time judgment prior to Jesus' return also has a long history in Protestant theology, for many passages of Scripture teach a pre-advent judgment, notably the seventh chapter of Daniel, but also in many other places. You are correct that Adventists have a rather unique understanding based especially on connections with the Hebrew sanctuary as a model and in the book of Daniel, but of course we do not set specific dates. I wonder whether your understanding of mainstream excludes churches from having specific doctrines or practices not shared by other mainstream churches. Virtually every denomination has unique elements. Methodists, Presbyterians, and Lutherans all baptize infants, but Baptists, Churches of Christ, Pentecostal groups, and of course Adventists accept only baptism of believers. Does this exclude these groups from mainstream? Lutherans and Episcopalians have liturgical forms of worship and special interpretations of the eucharist that other major churches do not accept. Who is mainstream? In general the Evangelical cluster of independent churches avoids liturgical worship. Nearly every group has a few unique practices. Does this mean they are outside the mainstream? In the past, Adventists were a small group, but rapid growth continues. We have about one million members in North America, but around the world there are 14 million Adventists and a regular Sabbath attendance in churches approaching 20 million. If size is the mark of mainstream, we would qualify. Based on what I have described above we feel justified in using the word mainstream, as contrasted with groups such as Mormons, Christian Science, and Jehovah's Witnesses, whose beliefs depart in significant ways from biblical theology as generally understood. Now, in response to your inquiry about the abortion issue, our church has an official statement that can be provided if useful. In brief, we have strong respect for the sanctity of life as God's gift, so are opposed to abortion as a means of birth control. However, we believe that the decision should not be made by the organized church, but by the individuals involved, guided by the Scriptures. But in our sin-warped world there are medical issues that keep the matter from being simple. In those infrequent cases where a choice must be made between the life of the mother and that of the fetus, we would counsel that normally the mother be saved, since she is already a fully developed human being possibly capable of bearing other children. In cases of rape or incest resulting in pregnancy, our position is less defined. It seems cruel to force a woman, usually a young one, to bear and care for the child of a man who forces himself on her sexually. Many such offenses are committed by fathers on their daughters or by other close male relatives such as brothers, and often the girls are no older than 11 or 12. A different type of complication is created by the approaching birth of severely malformed fetuses that will emerge in birth with spina bifida or a missing portion of the brain. Such will never be aware of their existence, composed as a disunited lump of protoplasm destined for a quick natural death. There are such cases where we would not insist on carrying such a pregnancy to full completion. In every case we still wish to respect the principle of the importance of life. This extended response may be longer than you expected, but we want to do our best in giving an honest answer with the hope you will understand us better. There are critics who distort our faith, and that is of course their privilege. But we seek to serve the Lord Jesus as our Savior, who died for us and forgives our sins by grace. We have the hope of His soon return to establish the Kingdom of Glory. May God bless you as you seek to serve Him as well George W Reid, Th D" What do you think of such a response? Larry | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4142 Registered: 12-2003 |
Wow, LarryóGeorge Reid is remarkably open about the true Adventist position on abortion. Generally I don't think they're that clear, although he described their abortion stance exactly as I always understood it as an Adventist. As far as his argument about being "mainstream"óhe's obfuscating, I believe. He's setting up straw-man argumentsó["I wonder whether your understanding of mainstream excludes churches from having specific doctrines or practices not shared by other mainstream churches. Virtually every denomination has unique elements. Methodists, Presbyterians, and Lutherans all baptize infants, but Baptists, Churches of Christ, Pentecostal groups, and of course Adventists accept only baptism of believers. Does this exclude these groups from mainstream? Lutherans and Episcopalians have liturgical forms of worship and special interpretations of the eucharist that other major churches do not accept. Who is mainstream? In general the Evangelical cluster of independent churches avoids liturgical worship. Nearly every group has a few unique practices. Does this mean they are outside the mainstream? "]óto avoid directly answering her question. Not surprising... Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 532 Registered: 8-2004  |
I found his 'I wonder whether your understanding of mainstream' statement condesending and pompous. As if the answer is, "according to my definition of mainstream we are mainstream (using semantics to 'prove' it) and if you think otherwise it must be your understanding that's probably faulty". This is a very familiar line of reasoning - hinting (at least in my understanding of it  ) of 'higher knowledge' that the 'common person' or 'layman' might have trouble grasping. Which often leaves the questioner questioning their own ability to perceive, wondering why the issue is still muddled, rather than getting to read a clear answer and weigh the merit of it. Mary | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 252 Registered: 6-2005 |
Did I read that statment correctly? A severely malformed fetus.... A "COMPLICATION" that will never be aware of their existence, composed as a disunited LUMP OF PROTOPLASM destined for a quick natural death......... Horrors! God says, "before I formed you in the womb, I knew you".... "In EVERY case we still wish to respect the principle of the importance of LIFE". Anyone else see a contradiction here. Can something be destined for death, that was never alive??? Do mainstream chuches teach that the "seal" of God is the sabbath...denying the scriptures promise of the Indwelling Holy Spirit as the seal? Do they deny the finished work of Jesus Christ's death on the cross, and thereby infer that Christ died for nothing? Do they teach that "one should never claim or think that they are saved" and therefore make God out to be a liar and deciever, dangling an elusive carrot in front of those who trust in His inerrant word. Lord, break forth with Your truth, for those who would be decieved and robbed of the power of the true Gospel. Javagirl | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 58 Registered: 4-2006  |
Flyinglady: I was so moved by your post about giving books and teaching the pastors about SDA'ism .. that I just had to say "°°Que guay!!" (Awesome). | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2241 Registered: 11-2002 |
Cw, I think you have it figured out completely. It was taught to me that God will wink at the ignorance of those who do not know the truth. The truth means the SDA understanding of everything. However, once someone hears the SDA truth and rejects that truth his demise is the lake of fire of total annilation. There is no wavering on this, if one has heard the SDA truth and rejects it he is lost. Therefore, the SDA's would be doing hummanity a favor by not telling anyone their truth. If the SDA's would keep their truth to themselves and leave everyone else ignorant then a lot more people could be saved to eternal life with Jesus. About abortion, I guess after reading that I can only conclude the SDA position o0n abortion is PRO. Refer to the thread I started several months ago that I titled, Is it a sin to not have an abortion" or something like that about a letter to the editor in the Review or Recorder that the letter writer said in the case of adultry it is a sin to not have an abortion. Aaaaaugh! | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 396 Registered: 2-2001 |
Has this gentleman never heard of adoption??? Would a child bore from a rape be any less loved by his adoptive parents than one bore from a highschool love? I doubt it. Are we to select the trials God allows upon us to deny ourselves the blessing He wants to give us through them? I spent 4 years of my like working in neonatal intensive care and cared for many children with unmentionable birth defects. The love that was in that hospital ward could of filled an ocean. My great nephew was born with Potters syndrom (died immediatley after birth)I cannot wait to see him in heaven as I know his mother feels the same way. I guess I get enraged that a church would not stand for every soul to be born that God has seen fit to allow conception. | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 84 Registered: 4-2006 |
Susan_2, thanks. I think I have it understood as well. Just an update here. I only saw D for about 15 seconds over the weekend since we were heading our separate ways as usual. It was long enough for a quick hello/goodbye kiss but she did at least smile at me so hopefully I'm not in too much grease. However I have not gotten a response to my offer of allowing J to show me that my wife and I are or ever can be part of the Remnant Church. I don't know if she will even pass my offer along to him and I would be very surprised if he/they actually took me up on it. I have too much time alone on the weekends as I do a one-person security detail. It's great for reading and scripture memorization but also much opportunity to fret about things-such as D and J. But I believe God opened the door to plant one more seed of doubt to D about SDA and now I just need to stay out of the way and let Him convict her of the truth. CW | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2600 Registered: 3-2004 |
Cw, it is so tempting to tell God when and how we want things done, is it not? I have to constantly remind myself, all things will get done in God's way and in His time. He is in charge. And He is awesome. Diana | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 86 Registered: 4-2006 |
Amen Diana! A hundred times a day it seems I start rehearsing in my mind what I must say to D or J if I get the chance that will win the case. Then finally, and I wish permanently, God gets through to me and says "you're stepping on my toes again here". He reminds me that my active part is over for now and that my duty in the meantime is prayer and trusting in Him to do His part. I am praying, and trying to picture, a hedge of Angels around D protecting her from spirits of deceit. My peace comes from believing that God will honor our prayers. And I say "our prayers" because you folks know, more than anyone else on the planet, how to pray for protection from EGW. I thought about you Diana praying at the same time I was on Friday evening because we're in the same time zone and your sun probably sets only a few minutes before mine. CW | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2602 Registered: 3-2004 |
Cw, There are a few other formers who live near San Francisco. They are Belva and Susan2, though Susan is further away than Belva. I really like our praying at the same time every week. I continue to pray for you and your daughter. Diana | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 88 Registered: 4-2006 |
So there are a few righteous-very few I'm afraid. I actually live a couple of counties north of San Francisco somewhat in the country, for which I'm thankful. Even seeing some of the people that walk through these five million dollar neighborhoods makes me happy not to live there. I'll let you know if I get a good sunset prayer photo this coming weekend. CW | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2604 Registered: 3-2004 |
I have to brag about a photo of mine that is on the internet. Go to <photo.com>. Type in Diana R. Lopez. Look for the photo, Sunbeam on the Potomac. When I registered it there I hit the wrong button the first time. So it is under children and then nature. When I took the photo I liked the play of light on the water. When the photo was developed, I found I had a sunbeam. That delighted me. Diana | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 91 Registered: 4-2006 |
Diana, I tried to find your photo but I couldn't find a way without a password. I did download the program though. It looks like it would be fun to play with. I've got my digital camera out and I hope to get a good sunset prayer shot this evening during prayer in SF. CW |
