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Jackob
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Username: Jackob

Post Number: 258
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 9:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome to all who are new members on this forum, this post is especially for them.

Last Sunday afternoon, at Mark Martin's church in Phoenix Arizona, Patria Rector, one of former adventists who is also a member of FAF, had given her testimony, which is now available for watching online at this link

Pastor Mark Martin who is also a former seventh-day adventist said that he was impressed by Patria's testimony given at the last FAF meeting, and he had invited her to share it with his church.

Also her testimony can be read online in the January 2006 issue of Proclamation, http://formeradvent.temp.powweb.com/Proclamation2006_JanFeb.pdf.

Patria was raised as a seventh day adventist who heared alot about grace, Jesus, her parents educated her with much grace, she was hentirely happy with her religion. But a tragedy in her life brings to surface the limits of God as adventists present Him. She was involved in a journey who eventually led her out of adventism, and she discovered that God can be trusted in spite of the suffering which is present in our life.

I have a friend, a SDA who make many mental gymnastics to evade the issues of adventism, even if he knows a lot. He was not moved an inch. But when I gave to him the Proclamation and he read Patria's testimony he was surprised by it, he recognized that he will feel the same about God if something bad will happen in his life.

This is why Patria's testimony is unusual. I recommend it to all who are trying to understand adventism, and it's limits.

Jackob
Violet
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Username: Violet

Post Number: 409
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 10:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob,
Thank you for putting that link up!
Helovesme2
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Username: Helovesme2

Post Number: 538
Registered: 8-2004


Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Jackob, thank you for that link. I just watched it this morning. What a blessing to get to see how God has worked in her life!

Patria, thank you for getting up there and speaking!

Mary
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4175
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 1:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patria, great job! It's great to have the video of your testimony online. What a blessing!

Colleen

Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4177
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 2:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mary! I just have to say this: there is a relaxed happiness and freedom in your new picture that was not there before. Wow! God has been restoring you and doing amazing things in your life. It shows!!

Colleen
Lynne
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Username: Lynne

Post Number: 448
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 12:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I haven't yet read my proclamation, but I watched the testimony online earlier today while I was working. It was very touching.

I can't relate to being a multi-generational Adventist, but I certainly can relate to hearing about Jesus for many years, but not knowing him.

I could relate to being okay with my life for many years with the knowledge I was taught by the church. I realize now for many years I deeply thought my efforts were the way into heaven, even if I didn't say that.

I finally realized I just was not good enough.

Salvation by works, not Grace alone, made me feel lost and far from Jesus.

Lynne



Jackob
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Username: Jackob

Post Number: 259
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 2:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear friends,
Today I received an e-mail which maked me very upset. Yesterday I informed my adventist scholar about the testimony of Patria. He read or watched the testimony, and I was expecting him to say something about the issues Patria mentioned, but his reply is almost unbelievable.

What upsets me is the fact that he is like somebody who is caught in bed with other woman, and he is telling his wife "This is not what it predictable: "Excuse me? You are in bed naked with this woman and dare to say that you are not cheating me? What are you thinking about me? Do you think that I'm stupid?"

Now here is my friend's reply:

quote:

I have read the article of Mrs. Patria. The story is probably based on biographical dates and clearly subjective s experiences, which have also their truth. But this does not prove anything. Her experience is not relevant from a theological viewpoint , but at this moment is only a psychological and spiritual problem, both of these areas being the most vicious in the world. Literature. inspirational. Nothing more




Excuse me? Not relevant from a theological viewpoint? She adressed the importan theological point of trusting in God, and spoke about the IJ

quote:

I have learned that the God of the Bible is trustworthy. I could not fiind that truth in Adventism because the church does not represent God as trustworthy. I could never be assured that my eternal life was secure. What if Jesus decided not to remind of me of a sin that Iíd forgotten to confess? Would He put a black blot by my name?


This has nothing to do with theology? Is my friend ready to say that adventism is teaching that eternal life is secure? And all believers will pass the Investigative Judgment? That every believer in Christ will pass even he forgets to confess all his sins?

{It is these problematic doctrines that caused me to plummet into a deep, dark depression because I didnít trust God. The accident didnít fit into my paradigm.Now I see that God is God and I am man. In adventism, Godís ability to act and do is dependent upon my actions or non-actions.}

How can somebody say after reading these words that the theology is not involved?

Excuse me for becoming emotional, but his reaction really upsets me. He was not adressing the problems, he just insulted my intelligence. What is he thinking, that I'm stupid?
Helovesme2
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Username: Helovesme2

Post Number: 539
Registered: 8-2004


Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 6:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jackob,

Sounds a LOT like a response I got from an SDA in another discussion forum (unrelated to Adventism) I am a member of. Someone who was a member there for a short time had a 'prophecy' about heaven coming to earth at a particular date this past spring. When (as the rest of us on that forum knew would happen) that prophecy did not come true, we discussed datesetting and such things a little bit.

One of the members made a post about various datesetters including the millerites, then made some apropos remarks about how datesetting, besides being wrong, usually gets our eyes focused on the future somehow instead of on walking with Jesus in the present. That the important thing for us is to be found living with Jesus now and whenever the time comes for the second coming as well.

I responded:

quote:

Yes! This is just what I've come to. I was raised a Seventh Day Adventist, taught great respect for William Miller, Ellen White, et al, and taught that because the Protestant churches had not accepted the 1844 prophecy and its 'fulfillment' they had fallen and were no longer 'true Christianity' (the Catholic church, though recognised to have 'some Christians' still in it was considered to have been 'false Christianity' for centeries already and so did not 'fall' on this point).

What a shock for me to realise that salvation does not consist in being able to believe that a particular event took place on October 22, 1844 despite any particular evidence. That my eternal soul is not at stake because of my dietary choices, the clothing and adornments I wear, or the day I go to church.

What a joy to find that Jesus is quite trustworthy, that I can trust my eternal and temporal life to Him, and I do not need to fear eternal damnation because of what this or that esoteric point. That I do not need to make preparation against the time of trouble (when, in SDA eschatology, the 'Sunday worshipers' will come after the 'Sabbath keepers' with the intent to wipe them out, and the Sabbath keepers will have to run to the hills and live hidden vegetarian subsistance lifestyles), but rather that I may live walking with Jesus each day trusting that He will bring me to where I need to be for tomorrow by the time tomorrow comes.

What a broadening (both joyful and humiliating) to discover that I am not part of an 'elite' on whose shoulders the salvation of the human race rests (and who somehow are better than the rest of the world because of our 'special knowledge' and good health?) but rather that I am just a human, no more or less than any other human on the planet, with just as much worth, and just as much need of saving.




Since it was simply a post agreeing with the first poster's point I did not get much responses, but the one I did get was from an SDA who said, in essense (I'm paraphrasing), "So sorry Mary met up with so much legalism. This is not official church doctrine! . . . and too bad she didn't meet up with the charity that others have found in the SDA church."

Er, I fail to see where I was talking about legalism here. And I fail to see which point is 'not official church doctrine'. And I fail to see how charity has anything to do with whether SDAism has the freedom and joy of the clear message of salvation or not!
Lynne
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Username: Lynne

Post Number: 449
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 12:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob,

I hope that you won't take that too personal. In the minds of many, there is always justification. If a mind is made up that science is right about evolution, there will always be justification in the science of evolution despite any proof.

Consider it more a blessing what you know in your heart and pray for your friend.

Lynne

2 Corinthians 12:10
That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.



Jackob
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Username: Jackob

Post Number: 260
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm taking it personally, but from another point of view.

Until now all my attempts to lead my adventist friends to Jesus had no results. This is very discouraging, and I'm questioning if it's indeed in God's plan to use my testimony and experience. It seems that nothing I can do is enough to change the situation. This is why I'm in danger to take this personally. In these moments, I'm grieving. Forgive me for bothering you with these thoughts, but I had felt the need to express my feelings.
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 1405
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 3:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob, I got grilled today by my son's father for daring to use the testimonies of others to insinuate anything about adventism. It's fine to use them to prove adventism, but it is worthless as any tool against adventism. They're deluded and self-absorbed with their own version of "right". Like you, I am discouraged that there is anything a person can say in regards to adventism and be seen as sincere if the message is remotely negative. Leaves one with a mouth wide open to speak and nothing to say. I grieve too.
Lynne
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Username: Lynne

Post Number: 450
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 3:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob - I understand. It is good for you to express your feelings. I take things very personally myself. Maybe when I write sometimes I'm talking to myself out loud. I'm struggling and grieving quite a bit about some things that I haven't shared on this forum. Lynne

Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 2616
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 8:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob,
Remember, it is up to us to tell others of Jesus and tell them what God has done for us. God is in charge of the results. He does the convincing and convicting. We may not see the results until we get to heaven. When the ones you talk to do not respond to what you tell them, leave them in God's awesome hands. Please do not take it personally. That is taking your eyes of Jesus and placing them on yourself and that God does not want.
Keep praying and telling us and God how you feel and think.
He is awesome.
Diana
Snowboardingmom
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Username: Snowboardingmom

Post Number: 116
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 9:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jackob,
I want to say how much I admire your heart and passion for sharing the gospel to your loved ones. I KNOW how completely frustrating and discouraging this can be. I know how lonely it can seem too...

Sometimes we're blessed to be able to see the "fruits of our labor", while sometimes we may never see the influence of our witness play out within our lifetime. We may never know which of those "seeds" fell upon primed hearts that will later blossom into discovering the reality of Jesus later on. But, we can know that God is sovereign, and He uses everything for His glory.

It may even be that while God is using you to witness to your Adventist friends, He's also confirming and solidifying for you the reality of the spiritual hold that Adventism has. Also, while those seeds that you're planting in your friends are important, so is your growing trust and knowledge in Him that tends to automatically happen when you experience constant frustration and discouragement from your friends that are just "blinded". In other words, God uses everything, and redeems everything for His ultimate glory -- even through seemingly hopeless experiences with our fellow Adventist friends.

Here is an excerpt from My Utmost For His Highest (Feb 4th) that I found encouraging:

"Paul said that he was gripped by the love of God and that is why he acted as he did. People could perceive him as mad or sane--he did not care. There was only one thing he lived for--to persuade people of the coming judgment of God and to tell them of "the love of Christ." This total surrender to "the love of Christ" is the only thing that will bear fruit in your life. And it will always leave the mark of God's holiness and His power, never drawing attention to your personal holiness."

As I learn to see God's sovereignty and will for my life, I've begun to realize how much "background stuff" goes on that I am not even aware of. Some of it, I begin to see, while most of it (I'm sure) will always be a mystery to me. But I do know how perfectly every puzzle piece has been planned out. And I also know that while we may be reaching those around us in hopes that they can experience Him and grow in knowledge of Him, at the same time He is giving us the "lessons/challenges" we need through these experiences so we can continue to grow in Him as well. God's sovereign plan is not only awesome, but it's also efficient!! :-)

Be of courage, and keep up the good work,
Grace
Snowboardingmom
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Username: Snowboardingmom

Post Number: 117
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 9:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Forgot to mention -- about your friend's response to Patria's testimony...

You know, back about 10 years ago (before I even knew there was any problem with SDA doctrine), if I was your friend, I probably would have had the same response to her testimony, or for that matter anything else you had to say.

As an Adventist, I was extremely protective of the denomination and anyone who went against it. Before even discussing Adventism with a "former", I would have ALREADY assumed that they were bitter, disgruntled, etc. My reactions would have already pointed towards negativity before even hearing them out.

It took MANY incidences, facts, and testimonies to hammer away at that preconcieved tendency before I actually even started to listen. Of course, once you really start to "listen", it's all over. It's just a matter of time :-).

Grace
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4180
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 11:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob, I so understand your responseóyour friend's reaction seemed to completely miss the real point. Further, it was insulting to you and deliberately misinterpreted what Patria said. All of this reaction was said in a way meant to demean your experience and integrity.

His reaction was so very typical. Defensiveness happens when people don't want to face the truth which they already suspect. Last week my mom called me to say that she had read the story of Richard's being fired to a friend whose late husband used to work at the School of Dentistry. The story appeared in a small newlsetter which was sent out with donation receipts.

My mom read the brief story which was written similarly to Richard's posts on this forum when he announced the story. My mom's friend said with unexpected emotion, "I've seen Proclamation. It's hostile and vitriolic."

Before calling us, my mom, who was a bit shaken, told this incident to another person who said to her, "Have you ever thought Proclamation was hostile and vitriolic?"

"No," she responded.

"That person's reaction to Proclamation simply means that your friend doesn't want to know the truth," her confidant told her.

Your friend, Jackob, is in the same category as my mom's friend. Patria's story is compelling and speaks the truth about Adventist theology. Your friend wants to discredit Patria because he doesn't want to deal with the truth she spoke. It's the same sort of reaction the Pharisees had when Jesus spoke of His fulfillment of prophecy. Instead of thinking about and dealing with the facts, they attempted to discredit both the Messenger and the words of the message.

His reaction is not your fault, Jackobóit's not your talking or your explanations to him that are the reason for his defensiveness. As Snowboardingmom said above, we may never see the results of the seeds we plantóor we may not see them for years. Just know that God is at work; just because a person is defensive and closed does not mean he is not hearing. God has a way of confronting people over and over again with what they need to know in order to become grounded in truth and rooted in reality.

We can expect to meet a lot of defensiveness, hostility, argumentativeness, and arrogance when people begin to hear the problems with Adventism and to see the reality of the life-changing relationships of those who meet Jesus.

Colleen

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