| Author | Message | ||
| Accepted Registered user Username: Accepted Post Number: 5 Registered: 6-2006 |
YOur forum has given me hope, cheer and comfort as I read about the experiences that members are able to share. This gives me courage to bring up a subject that you have probably discussed before, but I haven't found the site. I have read several comments in the Proclamation literature and LAM newsletter about former adventists, including Richard Tinker, finding the freedom to eat meats. What is the advantage to that freedom? Is there virtue in being able to stomach anything offered? What am I missing? From the background of a third generation SDA it is hard to look at dead animals on anyone's plate without distinct feelings of repulsion. It seems prudent to keep my thoughts to myself in most of my relationships since my negative responses are probably just cultural. But what about the health issues. Is animal flesh actually as healthy as plant foods, milk and eggs? I raised my children on vegetarian foods, as natural and organic as I could afford, not just to follow the SDA position but to give them a healthy start in life. OVer the years my husband has not always agreed. He swears that he would have died if he had not been persuaded to eat some clean meats soon after he first left home in his teens. He says he had no time or place to prepare his own meals and depended on restaurants, or worse on fast-food, or convenience stores for nourishment. He wound up eating milk and snack cakes for lots of meals until his "feet swelled and burst". From my medical education background, that sounds like edema, possible related to low protein malnutrition. But whatever it really meant, he did learn to enjoy beef in various forms. Over the years since then he has wavered between eating or not eating meat in other places, as I firmly declined to prepare it at home. Since his job as an over-the-road truck driver meant he was eating in restaurants routinely, his choice of foods there was not a problem with me. But our children, as they came of age, learned to eat meat with him. And he had dreams of "a dairy farm someday" though the knowledge that the little bull calves go to butcher, as well as lack of funds, kept him from doing the dairy business. Then came the freedom, in 2001, to leave the SDARM, based on my appreciation of the full salvation offered by Jesus, (no works necessary). It was not hard to relax my rigid position and allow my nearly grown family members to bring prepared "clean meats" home and warm and serve them for themselves. And since my income provides the groceries, and I do some of the shopping, I even buy some prepared meats myself for them to eat for lunches etc. But the sight of meatfat on the skillets, grill, or stove top is still disgusting. And the thought of what it does to the arteries and body fat still worries me. Am I way off base about the superior health benefits of plant foods over animal products. Where is the balance? It seems inconsistent to buy prepared meat products because of the increased cost, preservatives, additives for flavor etc. But to even think of raising animals for butchering just so I can know they are healthy is sickening. What ideas do you have about this? I really want to experience the freedom, joy and hope of salvation, and to participate in pleasant dining experiences with my family. Thanks for listening. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 760 Registered: 4-2000  |
Martha, Good questions! The truth is that Adventism has so paralyzed us, psychologically, that many of us can't even eat like normal people. This seriously affects our fellowship with other Christians as well. If the legacy of Adventism can keep us from enjoying a meal with other Christ-followers, the devil has scored another victory in our life. Our minds have been needlessly saturated with negatives about eating meat. This is another "sticking point" of Adventism that affects even our taste buds. Having said all that, however, there is nothing wrong in enjoying vegetarian cuisine. My Sunday School teacher told me, "Just because the Bible says that we can eat meat, doesn't mean that we should." My wife and I are mostly lacto-ovo vegetarian in our diet at home, but we eat some meat when dining out in restaurants or in the homes of friends. We are not fanatical about our diet. The real truth is that Sylvia doesn't even know how to prepare meat dishes. In contrast, she is an experienced, excellent cook with vegetarian cuisine. Many of us, due to our SDA background, may never be able to change every facet of our life that was hammered into us for so many years. Admittedly, it takes time, talent, and courage to change the way we are used to eating. This is also a problem for some newlyweds. So this problem is not entirely caused by religion in every case. One can grow up in a godless, vegan home and find it later to be difficult to change dietary habits. A serious issue develops when we cannot make any exceptions under any circumstances. In that case, we are still enslaved to a toxic-faith system. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 456 Registered: 10-2005 |
I am seeing the good that God brings out in this. For many years people didn't seem to put any thought into what they ate. Some people still don't put much thought into how healthy the food is that they eat. I would say that the majority of Adventists are not extreme or fanatical vegetarians (oh, I never lived in Loma Linda). Anyway, I don't agree with the deception of how the Adventist church connects the OT teachings with diet and uses their health message in evangelism. However, I think God does make something good out of the Adventist message, and the health message doesn't work to the benefit of the Adventist church the majority of the time. Individual Adventists do make people think about their dietary health. That is the good brought from this that I have seen. Rarely have my non-Adventist friends, Christian or not, failed to see the good in the lives many Adventists try to live with regard to health. They stop and think about their own health and the health of their family a bit more. There is nothing wrong with that. God is good. Lynne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4205 Registered: 12-2003  |
Martha, there really is nothing wrong with eating a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet. I understand your feelings wellóI still have great diffculty "doing" seafood, etcóalthough if it is served, I will take itóto get used to it, if nothing else! We used to work on a health newsletter produced by Hans Diehl, the founder of the CHIP lifestyle program we discussed on this forum over a year ago. He ran many articles that pretty much convinced me that eating any kind of meat was not just "not wise" but outright dangerous. Since then, I've read other materials as well, and some facts Hans didn't include have emerged. For example, I remember clearly one evening hearing a doctor at Loma Linda (a former Adventist himself) say that the seven-year-advantage which the Adventist Health Study shows Adventists have because of their lifestyles is not a complete statement of the facts. He said that Christians who are non-smokers and non-drinkers, who limit red meat but eat white meat and fish enjoy equal longevity benefits. Mormons, I have also read, live seven-10 years longer than the general public. The advantage, this doctor said, was not the presence or absence of meat but primarily the absence of tobacco and excessive alcohol. (Mormons do not smoke or drink, but they do eat all meats.) I still have concerns similar to yours about animal fat, Martha. But I've discovered some pretty surprising things. First, skinned white meat is almost fat-free. Second, even food made with red meat may contain less fat than simmilar foods prepared vegetarian. For example, for Mothers' Day, Richard went to Costco and bought (for the first time) beef lasagna and (not for the first time) vegetarian lasagna. The surprise was that the beef lasagna had less fat than the vegetarian one! I've also seen significant differences in fat content in foods such as frozen, prepared enchiladas and burritos. When made with chicken, these things have much less fat than when made with cheeseóand even the beef ones have less fat than ones made with cheese. Cooking with white meat and fish does not leave grease in the dishesóand I'm learning (although like Sylvia Fischer, I really don't know a lot about cooking meat!) that in many ways it's easier (quicker) to cook with meat than without! Ohóone last observationówhite meat is usually much lower in fat than are meat analogs! But don't worry, Marthaóit's OK not to eat meat. In Richard's case, he felt he needed to face his aversion (which is sometimes described as the flip side of an addiction) head on. It was, for him, a surrender that had spiritual overtones. But God does not call everyone to eat meat! Colleen | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 460 Registered: 7-2000 |
I would just point out that your genes have more to do with your health than what you eat. I eat anything that isn't running too fast and that seems tasty. I have low Cholesterol, low Tryglycerides, my fasting blood glucose is normal, by B/P is 102 over 70 and I'm 45 years old. My wifes' results are similar--but she's a lifetime vegetarian. I have a friend, an SDA pastor, same age and strictly vegetarian with a family history of heart disease and early deaths from heart attacks. He is on lipitor to control a cholesterol level that was too high to measure, not too mention a trygliceride count of 1500. If he wasn't a vegetarian, he'd probably be dead--but not because of meat, but because of his genes. BTW, both of these middle aged vegetarians already have mild arthritis. This carnivore doesn't---but if you want to be a vegetarian, go ahead. I know some great vegetarian dishes that I can never turn down, such as Cottage Cheese Loaf! Bill | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 493 Registered: 7-2004  |
The biggest advantage I find in being able to eat meats is full fellowship at meals with other Christians. I was a lifelong vegetarian until a few years ago when I finally got brave enough to try fish and chicken. That took place within a couple weeks of realizing we were no longer SDA's, even though we hadn't officially left yet. The reason I did so was first of all I realized it truly wasn't a moral issue, and secondly we were getting ready for a trip out of the country and I knew it would be much harder to find vegetarian food outside of the USA. Even though I still eat chicken on a fairly regular basis, I haven't been brave enough to go for red meat. It still feels awkward anytime we're in our church group with food, especially at someone's home. I feel so out of place like I'm putting the hostess on the spot to not be able or willing to eat what everyone else is eating. It seems a little rude to expect others to cater to me. I think Richard needs to post a 5-Day "How to Become a Non-Vegetarian" Plan! It's one thing to be concerned with a healthy lifestyle (which can take place with or without meat). It's quite another to have such a strong stance against (or aversion to) an entire group of food that it's nearly impossible to fit in with mainstream society. That's what I still struggle with changing. | ||
| Accepted Registered user Username: Accepted Post Number: 6 Registered: 6-2006 |
Raven, thank you for you comment about being able to enjoy full fellowship with other Christians. That is an issue to consider. It does seem rude and arrogant, in a way, to expect a hostess to provide vegetarian fare for no good reason. The idea of a 5-Day plan is scary. But I have not flinched at recommending non-smoking to appropriate patients. That too is a life-long habit that is probably much harder to break because it has definite chemical withdrawal symptoms. Loneviking, you are entirely correct in saying that inherited factors have a tremendous influence on lipidemia, diabetes, and heart disease. I am not so sure arthritis is not involved also. Thank you for your courage to post you age. Hope you have many painfree, healthy years ahead. (I dare you to check the fat content of Cottage Cheese Loaf sometme.) Colleen, thanks for your comments from the viewpoint of a former editor of Hans Diehl's newsletter. I did not know that the Mormons and other non-drinking, non-smoking Christians also had the 7 year advantage found in SDA's, but it makes sense. Was there a study done on them too? BTW I was in attendance at a LLU alumni meeting about 4 years ago when that audience was invited to join another long term health study to check for the benefits of other details of their lifestyle. It was limited to church members, regardless of lifestyle. But non-church members were not qualified because "the information is gathered through the pastors of the local churches". (So I felt a bit left out) Yes I have noticed that some meat analogs have considerable fat, others not so much. Since we live hours away from an SDA food store, we depend on Morning Star products for meat analogs, and since many of them are pre-fried, they ARE greasy. Thank you for your gentle remeinder that 'It is okay not to eat meat'. That was a comfort. The idea of an aversion being the flip side of addiction was a new one to me. I have been thinking and praying about it - it will be a miracle if that part of my psyche is changed, but I do not doubt the power of God to do anything that is for my good. Dennis, thank you for wise words about the subject. The idea that aversion to meat is part of an an enslavement to a toxic-faith system was strong language. But it IS a strong aversion for me. And as it is surely true that newly-weds have to overcome some life-long habits in order to have a smooth-running homelife. I should not expect to have no changes to make to have a happy home. Many thanks to all of you for your thoughtful input. I read the postings last night and had to sleep on it before I could respond. I can feel your prayers for me and really appreciate the gentle good will you exhibit in your words. Martha | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4218 Registered: 12-2003 |
Martha, Thanks for having the courage and vulnerability to respond to all our posts to you! I'm so glad you've joined us here, and whether you ever eat meat or not will not divide us. We will pray for you and welcome your comments and fellowship with us! Praying for you, Colleen |
