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Conniegodenick
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Username: Conniegodenick

Post Number: 35
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 3:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello all,

I recently got the following email from my ex-mother in law. Would be interested in your reactions. I copied and pasted all of it. I won't be near a computer for several days but will catch up next week.

Connie

Date: Thu, 25 May 2006
Who is this Ellen White? Artist Elfred Lee's Testimony of Rabbi Joe Kagan's Endorsement of Ellen G. White

"I met Rabbi Joe Kagan at Weimar Institute in CA. His family had come from Eastern Europe where his aunt had been raped while a priest stood over her with a crucifix saying, "This is what you get for killing Christ." So you can imagine the feeling of many Jews towards Christianity. American Christians are not at all like Europeans. His family moved to the US while he was young. At age 13 he debuted at Carnegie Hall as a cantor. He had a beautiful, tenor voice. He received a very high education and became a rabbi. I met him in h is later years in 1978 after he had been on Ronald Reagan's staff in Sacramento as their research man. If there were any questions about any subject, he was the one that did the research and found the answers. He had a very negative attitude towards Christianity. He would never touch the New Testament. However, he knew the Jewish Old Testament (Torah) extremely well as a highly educated rabbi would. One day he got hold of a book called Patriarchs and Prophets by Ellen G. White. He read it with astonishment and wanted to know who this Ellen White was. That is when I met him. He was asking who is this Ellen G. White and what university did she attend. We told him she only had a 3rd grade education. "Then where did she learn Hebrew?" he asked. We told him that she never knew Hebrew, but was the most prolific female writer in history and that this was only one of her books. He was amazed at her knowledge, saying that the i nformation in this book (Patriarchs and Prophets) is Mishnaic. The Mishnah is part of the Hebrew scholarship. He said the Mishnah had only been translated into English 30 years ago and that only high-level rabbis knew this information. This is the history of my people and it is very, very accurate. He also said that you have to know Hebrew to be able to write like this because her sentence structure is not English, it's Hebrew. The rhythm the meter, the arrangement of words and expressions are not English. He said it's as if she wrote in Hebrew and it was translated into English. My family and I developed a strong friendship with Joe, his wife and son. As we studied the Bible and some Ellen White books together one day, he said, "I am convinced that Ellen White was inspired by the same source that inspired the Hebrew prophets. I want to become a Christian. I accept Jesus Christ as my Messiah." Now, he would not have come to Christ through reading the Bible. Even though the Hebrew B ible is full of prophecies pointing to the Messiah, it took Ellen White's writings to prove to him that Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of all the Hebrew prophecies. And only then did he pick up the New Testament and read about his Jewish Messiah. Many times I saw him cry. I was in the middle of a painting commission for a large mural called "Christ The Way of Life" for the world headquarters of the Seventh Day Adventist church in Washington DC. He became very involved with that painting. The painting had originally been inspired by James and Ellen White who had commissioned an engraver to do a black and white drawing of the subject. He confirmed to me that Ellen White's concept was very accurate on the whole plan of salvation in both the Old and New Testament, but that the engraver had misrepresented her concepts. So he helped me in many details to make the painting historically and t heologically accurate; especially regarding the sanctuary section, the Hebrew writing on the cross and the last supper scene. He told me to paint Jesus and his disciples at an oriental style table, sitting on mats on the floor - not Roman couches as the medieval artists painted. Further, he said their heads would be covered and he made sure I painted the wine, the unleavened bread and the bitter herbs and their symbolism exactly as they would have been. He approved of the whole painting and we had an unveiling ceremony at the Auburn SDA church in late 1979. He had written a song to go with the painting and sat at the organ as we unveiled the painting. He wept as he sang the words of Jesus on the cross quoting Isaiah, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" He sang and sang and wept and wept, his whole body shaking. There was not a dry eye in the whole church. His voice was so beautiful. The original painting hangs in the new SDA world headquarters in Silver Spring, Maryland where they have posters and bible studies of the painting. I could never have done it without the inspiration of Rabbi Kagan and Ellen White. I wish they were still alive! We were at his secret baptism in the Bear River above Sacramento on Saturday night Dec 22 1979. There were four of us present. He could not even tell his wife and son that he was now a Christian. As he came up out of the cold water praising God and singing to his new Messiah, he said, "I am now a completed Jew. I have now accepted the Old and New Testament and the Messiah that all Jewish prophets told us about!" I was recently in Europe giving some workshops on art and some of my archeological work in the Middle East. I happened to meet a Jewish family from Israel. Shalom David was originally from Iraq and his wife from Chile. They were now attending a college in Europe where I met with quite a bit of opposition to the writings of Ellen White. This Jewish family invited me to their home for Shabbat (Friday night supper.) It was a most enjoyable occasion as his wife and beautiful children sang and celebrated the arrival of Sabbath as Jews have done for thousands of years. I told them the story of Rabbi Kagan and he got very excited. He said, "The same thing happened to me! I would have rather burned the bible then touch it! I wanted nothing to do with Christianity, but I also read the writings of Ellen White and the Spirit of God was on that woman. Her writings are as if she wrote in Hebrew. You can definitely hear the Hebrew rhythm, meter and expressions in her books. I also believe she was inspired by the same source as the Hebrew prophets. And she has helped me fall in love with Jesus Christ, my Messiah." I just met yesterday with a rabbi living here in California - Rabbi Ben. It was a follow up to a Sabbath meal I was invited to this last Sabbath with him and a group of Adventists. He went through the whole ceremony at the meal just like Rabbi Kagan and my new friend (Shalom David) in Europe had. So yesterday we were talking over Hebrew ceremonies and how they are still effective in healing disease. Rabbi Ben told me that he has also had the same experience. He hated the bible but that Ellen White brought him to Christ and helped him read the New Testament and fall in love with the Messiah. He also told me that he had gone to visit one of the most influential rabbis in America who is in his 90s who must remain unnamed. While in this rabbi's library talking, he was scanning the many, many books on his walls and there he saw the book Patriarchs and Prophets by Ellen white. Rabbi Ben asked him about it and where he had gotten it, "Why do you have this book by a Christian author?" The rabbi said, "This as a very authoritative source on our history." I recently shared this testimony on T.V. at 3 Angels Broadcasting Network. My phone has been ringing day and night by interested people from as far away as India and Australia saying, "we want to know more about Joe Kagan and Ellen White." The book Patriarchs and Prophets can be found in any Adventist Book Center or at the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists on old Columbia Pike, Silver Spring, Maryland. Posters of "Christ The Way of Life" can be found there. See it online at http://www.elfredleereligiousart.com/
------ End of Forwarded Message

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Raven
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Username: Raven

Post Number: 492
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 4:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It sounds like a carefully crafted story based on little or no reality.

quote:

He confirmed to me that Ellen White's concept was very accurate on the whole plan of salvation in both the Old and New Testament,


The Bible is what I go by, and EGW's concept of the plan of salvation is in direct contradiction to what the Bible plainly states.

I find it really strange that she supposedly wrote in Hebrew rhythm and meter. I don't see that her style of sentence structure is much different from anyone else in her time period. What would that prove anyway, that Hebrew is a more holy language and that would supposedly prove EGW definitely got her messages from God?

The whole thing reminds me of the more and more stories that have been floating around lately that provide "proof" and bolster confidence in EGW. Kind of like the Soo story.

IMO, it does not matter who endorses EGW or what their reasons are. The only thing that matters is how do her messages measure up to the Bible alone? They directly contradict the plain and simple gospel and obscure Jesus.
Helovesme2
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Username: Helovesme2

Post Number: 544
Registered: 8-2004


Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 4:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well said Raven!

Mary
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4203
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 4:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Connie, I got this email forwarded to me also. Here's my reaction.

First, the website at the bottom of the page did not work when I tried to find it. I found plenty of other websites with his art, but I couldn't find a personal site for him. Consequently, I could find not bakcground info, etc. that might help confirm this story.

Second, whether or not the story is true, my reaction to legends like this is the same: God uses whetever means available to get people's attention. Just as Jesus has repeatedly revealed Himself to people who read of Him in the Koran, He can reveal Himself to people who read of Him in Ellen White.

The internal evidence of Ellen's unreliability is extensive. She just cannot be a prophet of God and misrepresent Him in the fullness of the Trinity and the completion of Jesus' redemption. The evidence of her fraud is clear. But God is not limited by people's sinfulness. Remember "my servant Nebuchadnezzar", and Cyrus, and even Pharaoh?

God is God over allˇeven over false prophets. He reveals Himself in spite of usˇand if people have found Jesus as a result of reading Ellen, praise God!

He will not leave them indebted to Ellen; He will draw their honor and worship to the Lord Jesus. He reveals truth to us.

Colleen
Jwd
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Username: Jwd

Post Number: 218
Registered: 4-2005


Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 5:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And perhaps the portions he felt coincided with Hebrew writing were those she copied from other Christian authors of her day.
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 2620
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 6:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jwd.
That is the thought that went through my mind as I read this.
I would like to know what books she copied from when she wrote Patriarchs and Prophets.
Diana
Jeremiah
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Username: Jeremiah

Post Number: 105
Registered: 1-2004


Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 7:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's another instance...

"The language of the Book of Mormon exhibits features typical of a translation from an ancient Near Eastern text as well as the stamp of nineteenth-century English and the style of the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible."

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/book_of_mormon/language.html

Jeremiah
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1802
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 7:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremiah,
Excellent point.
That email above has been widely circulated, and it is more of the Ellen propaganda machine. I agree Raven that if the teaching doesn't agree with the Bible, then it doesn't matter how good it is otherwise. The reason people are saved reading Ellen White is this; she copied from very good evangelical writers. Some of her writings are true to the basic gospel. "Desire of Ages" has been used of God to bring people to him. Most of these people realize that with further study, Ellen doesn't jive with scripture.

Stan
Benevento
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Username: Benevento

Post Number: 109
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 8:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My DIL sent me the same article and the painting.
I was fascinated by it, and thought it was well done. On the left was the articles that were used in the sanctuary service, including the High Priests gear. Then in the center larger than the rest was Christ on the cross, on the right was
depicted a "last supper" and a baptism in a pastoral setting. Old Covenant, New Covenant. I
thought it was well done!
Loneviking
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Username: Loneviking

Post Number: 458
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 10:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There was a Jewish rabbi who converted over to Adventism contemporaneous with EGW. I believe his name was F.C. Gilbert and he wrote at least two books explaining the Jewish old testament, the laws and temple services. I'd say that EGW probably made good use of his writings!
Loneviking
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Username: Loneviking

Post Number: 459
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Posted on Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 10:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also, if that artwork is supposed to be Jewish, somebody hasn't a clue! I've been around plenty of Hasidic Jews who obey all of the Biblical instructions including not marring the corners of their beards. The paintings that this Rabbi seems to praise don't show the Jews as they really were and how some still are.
Benevento
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Username: Benevento

Post Number: 110
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 10:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

O.K. I knew there would be something wrong with it,I thought it depicted the Old and New Covenants nicely. Sorry I have no clue how to copy it here or I would. Lee probably couldn't resist a little artistic license--I'd go for trimming beards. What was interesting to me is
that the old and new covenants are so clear and
Christ is the central figure and the SDA's really don't teach that!! Colleen, if I send it to you could you post it? Peggy
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4209
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 4:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Peggy, we couldn't post the picture, but if you can find a website where the picture is, go ahead and put the web address up in your post!

Colleen
Benevento
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Username: Benevento

Post Number: 111
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 6:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know of a website either, I couldn't find it at Lee's. If anyone wants to see it write to me and I'll send it. agree@wavecable.com
Peggy
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 2624
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 7:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In Rae's book The White Lie, it gives some of the books from which EGW copied when she wrote Patriarchs and Prophets. Here they are: Night Scenes in the Bible by Daniel March 1868-1870, Bible History (old Testament) Vol 1, vol 2, vol 3 Alfred Edersham.
I said I'd like to know from whom she copied and when I opened Rae's book, there it was.
Diana
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1356
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 8:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The picture can be found here.

Also, the above "testimony" is also on his site, here.

Jeremy
Conniegodenick
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Username: Conniegodenick

Post Number: 36
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Thursday, June 29, 2006 - 3:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Back home--thanks all for your comments. I just thought the email about the rabbis was interesting.

Connie

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