| Author | Message | ||
| Bobbylog Registered user Username: Bobbylog Post Number: 5 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hello all, I know a friend who has a very different spiritual practice ..that person is neither a christian, nor a muslim, nor a buddhist ...but a free person (no religion)with strong spiritual practices ..That person revere God and have very good principles of life ...Regular prayer time at specific date, believe strongly in God only , believe that Jesus was a good prophet whose purpose like every others were to draw people to God but not the savior, as well as Muhammad in Islam..That person is open-minded and has no spiritual nor any ideology complex and accept the spirituality of others .. Would you consider that person convinced of his own conviction an unbeliever for that ...!!? And do you think that God will not saved sincere people outside of christianity practicing a spirituality as sincerely as we the christians do ..? I think that salvation is about conviction after all ..if you believe you are saved , you are ...if no, you are not ..!! can a christian marry a person who is not baptised but a believer in the way I am telling you, above ...? Normally, I see nothing wrong in that , because of that person open view of the human spiritual practices ... | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 13 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi Bobbylog, The Bible says that Salvation comes through Jesus Christ, and he said himself that "No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6) He also said "...but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." (John 3:18) I believe this friend of yours does not believe in the same God as we do here. Also, why would he want to be saved by someone he doesn't believe in? If he wants to go to Heaven some day, Jesus is there. Heaven is being present with the Lord. Why would anyone want spend eternity with someone they've tried to avoid all their lives? Also, a Christian can marry anyone they want, although if they didn't marry another Christian they would be spiritually mismatched. (This goes for everyone's religious backround) It ends up causing a lot of headaches later, and pain in some instances. Believe me.  Hope that helps! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4196 Registered: 12-2003  |
Bobby, Grace-alone has some great insights. I agree with her. I would also say that I used to struggle with the same question. I heard an illustration that put this question into persepective a few years ago, though, from J. P. Moreland from Talbot Seminary. It was during the time after 9/11 when people were fearing a recurrence of smallpox. He said: Suppose the government issues an order for citizens to be vaccinated against smallpox but someone sincerely and deeply believed that he didn't have to receive the official vaccination to receive immunity. He truly, deeply, and sincerely believed that if he ate a banana and a sugar cube, he would be protected against smallpox. When the smallpox epidemic would come, that sincere and devout believer in banana and a sugar cube would contract smallpox; those immunized would not. His sincerity is REAL, but the reality of smallpox is not averted by sincerity. The same is true of sin. The consequence of sin is not mitigated by one's sincerity. We must humble ourselves and receive the True Redemption that comes only through faith in God's promises which have been fulfilled in Christ. The question of whether or not a person who "doesn't hear" can be saved is a moot point. If a person's "hearing" depended upon other humans, then our work would be the means of another's salvation. But if salvation belongs to the Lord, then He must be responsible for revealing Himself. There are increasing numbers of stories emerging from Muslim cultures in which people are meeting the real Jesus by means of dreams and visions. God knows what each person needs in order to be confronted with truth. In the case of a person who refuses to examine the truth in front of him, that refusal cannot be excused by claims of "sincerity". God, however, is the only Judge, and only He knows another's heart. But in answer to your question, Bobbyóno, I do not believe that sincerity will substitute for truth. We can trust God to take responsibility for revealing Himself and calling His own, and individually we must be obedient to Him to speak when He akss us to speak. Colleen | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 75 Registered: 4-2006  |
Bobbylog, sounds like new age to me, if the person does not belive that Jesus is God then he does not belive the bible, Gods word, either. The bible contains the plan of salvation. Also I think that God reveals himself a lot, Romans 1:20. More about new age: http://www.scp-inc.org/ | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 97 Registered: 4-2006  |
Bobbylog, I don't think you will find many proponents of that belief here. The first scripture that came to mind was the one Grace Alone gave you-John 14-6. Another is 1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man christ Jesus---" Your friend can believe whatever he wants but anything other than the truth won't get him an inch off the ground at the Rapture. There are a lot of websites for every kind of weird thinking. Fortunately this is not one of them or I'm sure many of us same people wouldn't be here. Like Mwh says "sounds like New Age to me". CW | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 76 Registered: 2-2006  |
Hello Everyone, I've been in hiding lately, but this topic is one that is near and dear to my heart... I just want to remind everyone, one does NOT have to be a Christian to know God. That is certainly a Christian teaching, but it is not, by and large, the opinion of other religions, just as the Bible is not considered 'the only way' to God, by many, many people the world over. I certainly do not think that the REAL God condemns one individual over another for holding 'the wrong belief.' Although one can meet many people who teach this, it is not a teaching worthy of God. I think Christians need to be very, very careful about negative labeling and casting aspersions on those who believe and practice differently because this can lead us to a position of looking down on others as if they were somehow 'second-rate' simply because they do not approach God in the same way that we do. Grace_alone, you said: "I believe this friend of yours does not believe in the same God as we do here..." I wonder if it might be much better to say that, 'this person does not define God as we do here'. To say that a person does not believe in the same God does not really make sense if we believe that really, there IS ONLY ONE God. Even though people perceive and explain God in a variety of ways, God is still God. And we really can only have the smallest glimpse of understanding of all that God is in any case. Unless you are saying that the person is simply deluded and only thinks they are believing in God. But that gets into the very dangerous territory of claiming to know what is in the heart and mind of another person. Colleen, something you said puzzles me... This is a question that I heard much debated when I was growing up SDA, and it has always troubled me. You said that "I do not believe that sincerity will substitute for truth..." I personally just can't believe that it is in the nature of a loving God to condemn a sincere believer. 'Truths' vary widely, and I know that lots of people are very emotionally attached to their particular 'truth', but I do believe that God is able to sift through all that is in our minds and hearts and know who we really are. I think that much of the problem with SDAism is their strong emphasis on 'truth' before all else, and in the process, we simply lose track of God... or never even get to know who God is in the first place. I think if a person has a true desire to know God, God will find that person. The details will take care of themselves. God is certainly capable of dealing with them, don't you think? I haven't been doing much deep thinking lately... thanks for jump-starting my mind again! Joyce http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DareToQuestion_DareToFly/ | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4200 Registered: 12-2003 |
Joyce, good to see you again. First, none of us, as you allude, can know the heart of another. God alone is our Judge and the Knower of all. Second, I also believe God is able to "sift" through our hearts and to know who we are and why we believe what we doóand to meet us where we are and to teach us. The crux, though, is how willing we are to surrender. I know it's a pretty unpopular word, but unless we are willing to surrender all we are, all we believe, and to submit to God in a desire to know Who He is, we will not be able to accept or know that reality. For me, the big problem was being willing to let go of my logic and my reasoned analyses in favor of discovering what God wanted to teach me. It's really not a matter of being a first or second class person, being loved or unlovedóbut there really is absolute Truth, and that Truth is what God wants us to know. He doesn't reveal it to or through arrogance. The great paradox of Truth is that we can only begin to perceive it when we give up ourselves and our understanding to One greater than we are. Truth is paradoxical. It is both gentle and powerful; just and merciful, profound and simple. Only when we can risk giving up our control over truth can we begin to perceive itóand paradoxically, it exists outside ourselves but gives us back ourselves! It makes cranky, self-centered sinners into forgiving, merciful humans who begin to love and know and understand as God Himself does. Jesus, the incarnation of God, came to be the perfect Human we could not be so that we could be united with the Father. We are not intrinsically "god"; we are united with God through Jesus' blood of the eternal covenant. This miracle is beyond explanationóbut I am so grateful to the Father for rescuing me from the domain of darkness, to Jesus for eternally aligning Himself with humanity and mediating forever between God and mankind, and to the Holy Spirit for bringing me to life and for connecting me eternally to God. None of this was by my effort or in response to my striving. Even that persistent "nudge" to risk surrendering all I believed to be absolute truth was from Him. It was all by His grace, and I still am amazed that I can actually say I love Him! Colleen | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 24 Registered: 1-2006 |
Bobbylog, What a great question! Christianity is not just a good proposition, which, taken in moderation, makes our world a better place. It's either true, with the most profound and eternal consequences, and is the most important decision we will ever make, or (if false) is totally irrelevant. We have to keep reminding non believers that it's not a matter or degrees, it's all or none. It does sound a bit "new age" to me. Bob | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 18 Registered: 6-2006  |
Hi Jodie, I've read and re-read what I wrote, and with all due respect, I wouldn't change a thing. Well, maybe I'd say "it sounds like that person doesn't believe in the God of the Bible." (I assumed that everyone here was a Christian) I hear too often from people like Oprah who say "Jesus, Buddah, Allah, whoever you call God" and it makes me crazy. Jesus wasn't p.c. He never said " No one comes to the Father except through me, but as long as you're sincere that's okay too." If sincerity in "Something" will bring salvation, why do we need Jesus? I sure hope I understood your comments... | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 104 Registered: 1-2004  |
To me it seems that an obvious reason people must come to God through Jesus is that Jesus is the only case of humanity being put together with the uncreated God in the same person. Jesus is God and man at the same time... nobody else ever was that. There's alot in John chapter 14 if you read the whole thing through. One thing that I hadn't realized before is that if we want God to manifest himself to us, we must keep the sayings and words of Jesus. Maybe it takes a little more than just praying for God to "reveal himself to us". Interesting... Jeremiah | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 159 Registered: 2-2006 |
Thank you, Jeremiah. What you pointed out is what scripture says, so it is either all true about the Son of God or a book of lies. It cannot be both and a book of great teachings and wisdom, imho. I agree; we cannot just read one verse, in any chapter, for the full weight of deep spiritual context and meaning.I just read John 14. Verses 9-11 jumped out at me for the first time. He does reveal himself to us, be with us, but mostly in ordinary life, as we love God and love our neighbor; pray; meditate/ponder/feel/express/ dwell on and with him--'The Word made flesh'-- love family, children, et all. Stay back with your insights; and prayers sent for you (even before you posted, tonight!)~ Cathy | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 98 Registered: 4-2006 |
Joyce, you wrote "I think Christians need to be very, very careful about negative labeling and casting aspersions on those who believe and practice differently because this can lead to a position of looking down on others as if they were somehow 'second rate' simply because they do not approach God in the same way that we do." THANKYOU!(smile) You said in a nutshell my biggest complaint about my daughter's SDA boyfriend. I asked her to invite him to my house with proof in writing that according to his doctrine I am as good as he is spiritually and on my way to heaven as part of the Remnant Church. He has yet to accept my challenge and I consider it very arrogant of him to hold that attitude. Just because I am not an Ellenite I am 'second rate'??!! I know that's somewhat from the opposite angle of yours but I couldn't resist making the point. CW | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 421 Registered: 2-2001 |
I'm am so lost here. I thought a believer was one who believed Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God whom came to die a sinless Man for the redemption of all who would believe in Him. Is this not the basics of Christianity? One that we can have no deviation from less we no longer are Christ followers (beliver). I agree that non-esentials are not to be looked upon as one is better than the other, but there is no room for negotiations when it comes to Jesus. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 758 Registered: 4-2000  |
Amen, Violet! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4204 Registered: 12-2003 |
I love the way you put that, Violetó"there is no room for negotiations when it comes to Jesus." Amen again! Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 545 Registered: 8-2004  |
"there is no room for negotiations when it comes to Jesus." I love that line too Violet! At the same time, it's amazing to me how many different ways of negotiating we often try before finally coming to surrender! What a blessing we miss until that time comes! And what an honor that God loves us so much that He stays available while we exhaust ourselves trying other ways, as the Father did in the story of the prodigal. Blessings, Mary | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 77 Registered: 2-2006 |
A couple of questions, if you please.... 1) This black and white way of thinking kind of puzzles me. Please help me to understand this. Why do those of you who feel that Christianity is either absolutely 100% true, or else totally irrelevant, feel this way? I don't see the world in an 'all or none' way and I guess that's why I've never understood this concept. 2) I know that Violet's definition of a Christian is one held by evangelical Christians, but I also know that there are many more 'liberal' Christians who would not define it that way. In fact, I would venture to say that most of the folks who attend my church would define themselves as Christians because they follow the teachings of Jesus. That would be THEIR definition of Christianity. It is because I was raised in the more conservative Christianity, with the definition as stated by Violet, that I choose not to call myself a Christian. I don't agree with those teachings, although I have no quarrel with the ethical teachings of Jesus, and have no problem with attending a church that teaches them. (I guess this was more of a comment than a question) Grace_alone, I would probably go along with you if you said, 'it sounds like that person doesn't believe in the God as defined by the Bible.' My personal opinion is that there is something that I call 'God' (the Source and Substance of the universe--I don't really know what that is), different people perceive, explain and define God in vastly differing ways, but we are all reaching for the same thing---and we are all touching the same thing. It's still all God, regardless of how we explain it or define it or reach it. I know that not everyone agrees with this, but that IS what I think. It is also my personal opinion that not everything attributed to Jesus in the Bible was necessarily something that Jesus said or believed. Again, I know that not everyone agrees with me. And I know that those who disagree would probably not define me as a Christian. And they would be right---by their definition. That's why I don't call myself a Christian. But I still think we all believe in the same God. Does that help clarify where I was coming from? Oh, perhaps I should clarify one more point--I don't personally think that we NEED Jesus. Jesus is ONE way that people are able to reach God, but there are many other ways. I know, I know.... lots of you disagree with me on this one too. Pleeeeeeease, don't preach at me. I just wanted to explain why I think that sincerity is more important than the particular way we go about it. It's all about God regardless. The same God. Remember, it's just my opinion. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying it's not the way I've chosen. Joyce | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4206 Registered: 12-2003 |
Joyce, I respect your position. I just want to reiterate from a discussion here a few weeks agoóthe issue really is deeper than what we think. The reason we sound pretty "black and white" is because we actually KNOW Jesus. We experience His presence; we sense His comfort and peace against all human odds. We learn from Him; we experience His discipline and correction and conviction, and we literally rest in His love. What we are experiencing is not self-hypnosis or self-soothing. It's totally "other" than ourselves. The day Richard was fired, he knew it was coming. He had spent the day cleaning his office, praying, feeling alternately excited and sad, and at 3:50 he started walking across campus to attend the "meeting" scheduled in his boss's office. For reasons he couldn't explain or even ponder, he took an unusual route. On his way he met his physician who asked him how he was. He responded that he was on his way to be fired, and in a burst of compassion she hugged him there on the street. He said later, "I needed that hug, and right there God provided it." He said as he continued his walk to the office building, he felt as if someone was walking on each side of him. "I felt three-wide," he said. In fact, as he approached the building, he said he half-expected to see three people reflected in the glass doorsóbut of course, he saw only himself. Yet those presences entered the building with him and walked into his boss's room with him. During this time and the ensuing half-hour, I was praying for him, as were a few other friends who knew what was happeningópraying that God would be glorified in every detail of what happened, that those who dealt wtih Richard would know that they were not dealing just with a man but with the Lord God Himself. Miraculously, they actually fired him with the real reason stated in writing: because of his involvement with this ministry and with Life Assurance and Proclamation magazine. Yet about five years before he had been told by an administrator, "Don't think we'll make a martyr out of you!" They did not couch his termination with hints of poor performance or wrong-doing (neither or which they could have said, at any rate) or re-organization or some such thing. I tell this not because it is "proof" of anything, but because sometimes experiences are the best way to illustrate what I mean by a "relationship". Richard placed his trust in God to direct his employment and to release him from Loma Linda in His time. He always said, "When God is done with me there, I will be gone that day." And indeed, that is exactly what happened. During the past few years, Richard often was aware of Jesus' presence with him, calming his heart, giving him endurance and patience and the ability to act respectfully to people as they apparently attempted to create situations to cause him to quit. And when the final day came, He was personally aware that God sent outside support to hold him up and protect his heart and mind. We are "black-and-white" in our conviction not because we have found a belief system we like but because we have actually met a Person Whom we loveóand Who loves us more consistently and profoundly than anyone else. Historic Adventism was "conservative" as opposed to "liberal", but neither "converative" or "liberal" guarantees KNOWING Jesus. Either one KNOWS Him or not. God's desire is for us to become new, alive in Him, changed from the inside out. And He takes responsibility for cleaning us up and revealing Himself. Colleen | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 79 Registered: 2-2006 |
Thanks Colleen, You've explained it in a way that totally makes sense to me--by giving an example of real life experience. That is something I can relate to. And I can understand why your own personal experience (and your husband's) would be more convincing to you than any teachings or explanations that could be given by others. That's what I'm finding for myself too. There's nothing like genuine, first-hand experience to convince you that you're on the right path! Joyce | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 422 Registered: 2-2001 |
Joyce, How do the liberal Christians define Christianity? Webster's dictonary defines it as one who follows or professes to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. I cannot wrap my mind about someone claiming to be a Christian without Jesus. What is your definition of a Christian? |
