| Author | Message | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1362 Registered: 10-2004  |
I would just like to make a few points. First of all, of course we need to warn people about eternal hell when sharing the Gospel. Of course we need to tell them about sin and judgement and the wrath of God and show them that they are sinners standing guilty before a holy, righteous God. I have not said anything contrary to that. But I just don't see why we need to drag in the obsolete Law of Moses in order to do that, when it is dead and gone. The Law of Christ is much more strict anyway! But some misunderstand what Jesus was doing in the sermon on the mount. He was not "explaining" the Ten Commandments. He was contrasting the old law with His new law (the Law of Messiah)! His Law required even higher morality than the Law of Moses. Of course unbelievers are not under the New Covenant. But they are certainly not under the obsolete (old) covenant! They are certainly not under a Law which no longer is in effect. And even if it was still in effect, only those who became circumcised and became a Jew were under the Law. It seems that Romans 3:20 gets quoted out of context so often by Adventists and non-Adventists alike. When the whole verse is quoted, the emphasis is totally different than when you just quote the last half. It obviously does not mean that without the Law of Moses we can't know we are guilty--since Paul says in Romans 2 that those without the Law of Moses, whose consciences contain God's Law, know they are guilty. And he says, "For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law"--they are not judged by the Law of Moses! The Bible does not teach that Gentiles will be judged by the Law of Moses. Jesus says, "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." (John 12:48 NASB.) Paul says, "To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law." (1 Corinthians 9:20-21 NASB.) This passage makes a few things very clear, including the fact that those who are not Jews are not under the Mosaic Law in any sense. Jeremy | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 566 Registered: 7-2004  |
It can be misleading to only post a partial verse, as we see with Romans 2:12 above. Allow me to post the whole verse and the surrounding context. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, If their consiences contain God's Law, as Jeremy has rightly pointed out, then there are still being condemned by that very law, unless they have, by faith, accepted Jesus Christ. Continue on and you will find in Rom 3:19 (as I mentioned above) that the Law closes EVERY mouth and make ALL THE WORLD accountable to God. In your desire to rightfully declare a Christian's redemption from the curse and demands of this Law, beware you do not take away the Law's role to convict the unsaved of their guilt (Rom 3:19-20) and to serve as a tutor that leads us to Christ's justification. The problem that we encounter is that many lawmongers have diminished the requirements of the law rather than uplifting them. Rather than being afraid of the law, we should be willing to hold it up, as Paul did, with the full requirements that can only show us one thing--we are sinners who need a savior. There are two prominent, and strikingly similar, errors in modern Christianity trying to diminish our need for imputed righteousness. Legalists who preach a weak law that people can strive to keep, thus negating their sinful status. And the pop-psychology pastors who refrain from even talking about sin. The only people who need a real Savior are real sinners. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1363 Registered: 10-2004 |
Colleen, you made some great points. I believe it is important to look at how the NT records Christ's apostles preached, rather than looking to preachers such as Spurgeon or Moody or Bill Bright or Kirk Cameron as our models. Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1364 Registered: 10-2004 |
I see this passage as talking about periods of history, the nation of Israel, etc., as opposed to individuals on this side of the cross. Verse 23 says, "the faith which was later to be revealed." I think it is clear that this is talking about a certain time in history. So when it says, "But now that faith has come," I see it as talking about now that Christ has come and revealed the Gospel. In the ESV, NLT and NIV (and even the KJV) this passage is much clearer. Here is the ESV's translation of the passage:
Jeremy | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 269 Registered: 7-2005  |
For a long time I entertained the idea that "all people" are under the law, based on Romans 3:19 "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God." But I was at the same time confused, because a chapter later, Paul put only the jews under the law, Romans 4:16 "Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring-- not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all." In the view of the clear passage from Romans 4, I'll try a harmony with Romans 3:19. This text is at the end of a long argumentation which ends with the conclusion of all people being condemned before God, and in need of salvation. First, Paul spoke about the heathens, and they are clearly guilty of many awfull sins. No doubt, they need to be saved. At the surface, the jews looks better, not as bad as the gentiles. But in the eyes of God, they are as bad as gentiles. For showing that the jews are under sin, and no better than the gentiles, Paul used the law to show that the law didn't make them good. The knowledge of the law didn't change the situation, neither their attempts to keep it. Romans 3:9 "What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin." And the conclusion is that everybody stands guilty before God. The gentiles are guilty of awfull sins, this is clear, and jews are guilty of breaking the law. In this way all, both gentiles and jews are guilty before God. Because of the law who speaks to those under it, and condemns them, the jews, the holy people, are also condemned. Somebody can have the impression that only the gentiles have their mouth silenced because of their awfull sins, and the jews are not included. But the law silenced also their mouths. After the law takes care of them, nobody can open his mouth before God, all mouths are silenced. But remember, the law did not condemn the whole world, only the jews, only those people who thinked that they are not so bad as the gentiles. The law was made for those who were chosen as God's special people and who believed that they were chosen because they were good. Their mouths were not silenced, but the law was given to silence their mouths. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1365 Registered: 10-2004 |
Great explanation, Jackob! Jeremy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1825 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen said: "Here's my point: the law (meaning the Decalogue) can be useful, as John MacArthur states in the quote above, in speaking to people who already know the Decalogue and believe it to be God's standard for them. But it is not necessary to teach the law or even to use it to point out people's depravity." Here is MacArthur's quote above: "The covenant of law is long past, but the moral demands of the law have not diminished, having neither begun nor ended with the Mosaic Covenant. That is why preaching the moral, ethical standards of the law is still imperative in driving men to Christ. Unless men realize they are living in violation of God's law and therefore stand under His divine judgment, they will see no reason to be saved. Grace is meaningless to a person who feels no inadequacy or need of help. He sees no purpose in being saved if he does not realize he is lost. He sees no need of forgiveness by God if he does not know he has offended God. He sees no need to seek God's mercy if he is unaware he is under God's wrath." Colleen, I don't see MacArthur making any differentiation. even though the Mosaic version of the Ten Commandments is no longer in force, still the same moral and ethical standards are in place and it is imperative to show a sinner that they stand convicted by God's eternal moral law, because even a savage has the law written on his heart. So maybe the hang-up here is using the word Ten Commandments, but this seems rather technical as all sinners violate the moral law of God, and certainly nine of the ten are moral laws, and this is what the average man on the street, and many other learned people realize the decalogue is at least some kind of a representation of the moral law of God. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4232 Registered: 12-2003  |
Thanks, Stan--I did mis-remember exactly what MacArthur said! Jackob, great harmony of Romans 3 and 4. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 117 Registered: 10-2002  |
Ironic... Dennis wrote this EGW quote above: Weren't there pharisees and others sects in Jesus' time who believed the Messiah would finally come when someone perfectly & flawlessly kept the Sabbath holy or obeyed the whole Torah? | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 113 Registered: 4-2005 |
Colleen-to answer your question about the speaker at Wash. Campmeeting it was Dick Duerkson, I haven't spelled his last name correctlyc and I didn't bring home any information, he is from Orlando Hospital--has worked with Billy Graham, in the Crusade for Christ. This is a busy thread--good subject--sorry it took me so long to get back!!Peggy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 768 Registered: 4-2000  |
WERE GENTILES EVER HELD ACCOUNTABLE TO THE LAW OF MOSES? Here is an interesting exposition that challenges Dr. Norman Geisler's view on the Law of Moses: www.reformed.org/ethics/whom_law_intended.html Dennis Fischer | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 769 Registered: 4-2000 |
GENTILE CONVERSION TO JUDAISM Gentile believers in the God of Israel were expected to observe the seven commandments of the Noahic Covenant (Gen.9) at a minimum. After all, the seven commandments of Noah were for all people. Historically, Judaism has taught that by at least observing the seven commandments of Noah, this would entitle the Gentile believers to inherit eternal life. The Gentiles who desired to actually convert to Judaism had to undergo some formal instruction and observation of the festivals for a period of one year. If a male convert, he would need to be circumcised to enter fully into the Old Covenant. Therefore, this conversion required them to observe all of the 613 laws of the Torah. Additionally, both female and male converts were required to be immersed in mikvah (ritual bath for spiritual purification). Dennis Fischer | ||
| Greg Registered user Username: Greg Post Number: 143 Registered: 2-2005 |
Colleen, I'd like to respond to your assertion yesterday that the law cannot be used as a tool for evangelism.
This is not the point of using the Law in a lawful way to convict sinners of their sin. If anything, the demands of the Law of Christ are even greater than those of the Decalogue or more broadly, the Mosaic law. But to willfully ignore the Decalogue in pointing sinners to Christ is to disarm yourself of a critical evangelistic tool. Almost everyone has heard of the Ten Commandments. Granted, this is not the summation of God's moral law as some Adventists claim, but the Ten Commandments serve as the perfect springboard to a gospel presentation. If you start with "Jesus is the standard of righteousness," you are using words that don't mean anything to someone who doesn't know Him. But if you start with the law, you bypass the intellect and strike straight to the conscience of a sinner. He cannot escape conviction by the law because his conscience accuses him. Nobody here has argued that the Decalogue is the standard of living for Christians. The argument is that the Decalogue can be used in a lawful and biblical way to convict sinners of sin. Once condemned by the law, they will be stripped of their self-centered "righteousness" and will see the need for a Savior.
This argument reminds me of a debate tactic I saw on a liberal Adventist forum recently. In the participants' efforts to explain away the substitutionary atonement, they made the claim that this doctrine could not be true because "Jesus never taught it." In the same way, to claim that "Paul never used the law in preaching to Gentiles," even if true, does not necessarily mean that it is wrong. That said, we don't even need to stretch the logic this far because Paul did use the law to point out the sin of the Gentiles. You referenced the sermon on Mars Hill in Acts 17 where Paul reasoned with the idol-worshiping Athenians. I would argue that Paul used the first and second commandments (Do not worship other gods; do not worship idols) as an underlying theme of his message! What were they to repent from if not a transgression of this law? Furthermore, Paul reasons from his own testimony in his letter to the Romans, which was written "To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints" (Romans 1:7 ESV). There is no reason to believe this group represented a purely Jewish audience, as evidenced by Paul's arguments aimed at both Jews and Gentiles in chapters 1 and 2. As Rick pointed out, Romans 3:19 shows quite convincingly that the law has implications for the whole world: "Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God." This text, incidently, refutes the point Jackob made about the law being applicable only to Jews. If so, the text would read "so that every mouth may be stopped, and the Jews may be held accountable to God." The fact is, it's not always obvious that Gentiles are "bad" and Jews are "good." The default belief of most Gentiles is the opposite--they believe they are good and their highest moral value is self-love. But this is not the only evidence in Romans where Paul uses the law to point out sin. He uses this in his own testimony. Bear in mind again that this epistle is written to Jews and Gentiles, so in using this argument, Paul is effectively demonstrating the evangelistic use of the law to both groups. "What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, ìYou shall not covet.î But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." -Romans 7:7-12 ESV You may object because Paul is referring to himself--a Jew who was born under the law--yet he uses this text to instruct Jews and Gentiles as to their utter sinfulness. What would be the point of including this statement in a letter he knew would be read by Gentiles if not to teach them that a proper use of the law will reveal their sin? As another example, Paul exhorted the Corinthian (Gentile) church regarding the behaviors that would exclude them from heaven: "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." -1 Cor 6:9-10 ESV This passage demonstrates that if nothing else, the principles of the Decalogue were in full view in Paul's inspired counsel. The fact that he expanded on three commandments does not nullify his proper use of the law to reveal sin. Neither does Jesus' expansion of the Decalogue in the Sermon on the Mount wipe away the usefulness of these near universally recognized standards of God's righteousness in pointing sinners to Christ. Yet another example comes from the epistle to the Ephesians, which like the Roman church, were a mixed population of Christians from Jewish and Gentile backgrounds. "Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 'Honor your father and mother' (this is the first commandment with a promise), 'that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.' Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord." -Ephesians 6:1-4 ESV This undeniable reference to the fifth commandment makes perfectly clear that Paul used the Decalogue not only to show sinners their sin, but to teach Christian ethics. Finally Colleen, I will close with something you wrote in the July/August 2003 Proclamation article "Until Heaven and Earth Disappear." "The law, however, does remain intact. It still reveals God's demands for righteousness and the certainty of the curse of death if one fails to embrace that righteousness through Jesus." I couldn't have said it better myself. Greg | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4233 Registered: 12-2003 |
Greg, You are rightóbut I believe I actually said that the Decalogue is useful for those who already know it and believe it to be a standard of righteousness. At the same time, it will always be there and will always have the effect of revealing God's righteousness and the curse of death for anyone who looks to it. I don't believe I actually said the law should never be used for evangelism. But I did say that it is not the primary tool for evangelism and is not necessary. Of COURSE Paul had the underlying principle of the first two commandments in view on Mars Hill. They are in view precisely because God is eternal and sovereign, and His morality is eternal. It has always existed. My point in regard to Mars Hill is simply that Paul did not teach the Gentiles the law. He knew that by declaring the reality of the Creator God, they would know he was telling them the truth about their own idolatry. God's morality is an unbiquitous, unavoidable factóand no one can evangelize without talking about it. My only point is that it is not necessary to use the Decalogue in order to convict people of sin. Will it convict people of sin if they believe in it? Of course! But it is not necessary to teach the Decalogue to people who aren't already convicted if its standards. Christ's standards are far higher and harder than the Decalogue'sóand people's consciences confirm God's moral requirements. This discussion has wandered far afield of the scope and purpose of this forum. This is supposed to be a safe place for people struggling with Adventism to find a source of support, safety, and emapthy and prayer. This is to be a place for people to come and ask questions and find grounding in Jesus. I'm quite aware that those whose hearts are raw and who feel vulnerable are not posting much, and I know that a large part of the reason for that silence is the dominance of this thread with its tone of intellectual sparring. This forum is not for intellectual sparring. It's for supporting each other and providing an anchor for people drifting in confusion and pain and loneliness and cognitive dissonance and even in anger. I'm going to let Paul have the last word for me: "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, becasue these are unprofitable and useless" (Titus 3:9). Colleen | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 213 Registered: 12-2004 |
Although I have been quiet over the last few weeks, I have read daily, and have appreciated the new tone, and congeniality on the forum. It is nice to see the free flow of ideas and opinions presented without the fear of being called a "rabid former" or "anti-SDA" like I hear so often on some other forums. It is nice to see some of the "old forum members contributing again, and the continual addition of new members. I think there is room here for support and safety, as well as the challenging ideas that encourage intellectual sparring, by those so inclined. It is nice to see "former Adventists, but current Christians" able to discuss theologically challenging topics while realizing that our salvation is secure when we are in Jesus, and that different understandings are acceptable. The Titus 3:9 verse is a favorite of mine, and I use it regularly as a self restraint when I am challenged by others about my New Covenant understanding. Some have a predilection for argumentative theological discussion, and some of us do not. Thankfully there is room for all. I think it is clear that most here recognize that salvation is through faith in Christ alone, apart from the law. That being said the Law does present moral guidelines that help in our service filled lives. Love for God and Love for one another is the Law that guides us. Thank-you again for the freedom to share from the heart, and from the head. I believe people's needs are being met here on both levels. FWIW, Randy | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 567 Registered: 7-2004 |
Sorry Colleen. I guess I didn't realize that discussing how we approach the unsaved in order to help them to understand their desperate need for a Savior was considered "intellectual sparring". | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 118 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi Colleen and all, I thought I'd chip in my own apologies to everyone for being stubbornly insistent on certain things at times. I don't mean to, but it's so easy at times to be more concerned about "being right" than concerned about each other. I'm sorry for doing that. Being right is especially often difficult because we feel we're defending truth, because then we're concerned with rightness in God's name. At times God leads me to His heart... and in His heart is us... it changes everything. It's not about being 'right'... He is more concerned about us than He is about whether we get the fine points about Him or about salvation correctly. His truth exists for us, for us, to set us free---not to force us to acknowledge what is right and wrong. That will happen at the end day. Until then His purpose is to draw us to Him, to rest lovingly in His real arms (not in theologically correct arms). He's awesome. Blessings to all, Ramone | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 119 Registered: 10-2002 |
P.S. The truth will set you free = the Son will set you free indeed. There is a real truth, the Gospel in fact. Yet it's more than theology. It's living, it's real. In fact, it's a Person. It's Him. He is the truth that sets us free. This thread began with some clearly erroneous EGW quotes---clear in the sense that we all could agree the quotes were not in agreement with the Gospel. Then it morphed into a discussion of how much we can use the Ten Commandments in evangelism, and then hell, etc etc. The one thought I had as I silently read while the discussion unfolded was that I don't have a set rule for this stuff! Do you know what I mean? Not a set rule for "This is what I use to evangelize" and "This is what I don't use to evangelize" or even "These are the points I must use when I evangelize" or "These points must not be forgotten when evangelizing". No! Different people need different things at different stages. The Gospel is Christ Himself, He is living and breathing, and He will guide you in what to say and how to witness----that is, how to bring people to Him Himself. And that's the whole goal. Sometimes that may entail teaching people about the history of the Old Covenant. Most of the time things like the Sermon on the Mount will be plain enough to help people recognize their utter insufficiency and their need for Christ. But if people are curious about Christ, then most of them already do have some deep knowledge of their sin and desire to be free --- to know Him and His freedom. Each person is different, and the way that He brings us to Him is different-----if nothing else, our own FA testimonies are witness to this! The common thread between us is not that we each hit this and this theological point, but rather Christ Himself leading us into relationship with Himself, and setting us free by discovery of the Gospel (for most--but not all--of us that includes the title-deed of the Gospel, the New Covenant). As an aside, so far I've found that it's easy to explain the Old & New Covenants in a few brief sentences to people who have not yet met Jesus but are curious about Him: You simply tell them that God laid out some moral & religious rules for a nation, but they couldn't keep them---and that's just like us, we're not perfect either, and the more people tell us not to eat cookies before dinner, the more we try to eat them. So God sent His Son to take the penalty of our sins on Himself, and He obeyed His Father faithfully. His faithfulness is our salvation, not our own faithfulness. The majority of people know right from wrong already, whether they're in denial about it or not. And even if they don't know, pray to the Lord and ask Him to move in them with His Spirit. Ask Him to show you how to speak to them. It's not logic that will help them; getting them to verbally confess the right ideas will not help them; rather it is the Spirit who will help them. The best we can do is to listen to Him and pray through Him for them. He will guide them to Himself. Of interest is John 16 where Jesus says the Spirit will convict us----He will convict us according to what Christ has done on the cross! And in John 12, Jesus says, "If I am lifted up, I will draw all men to Myself"... more than any right or wrong laws, the greatest convictor will be the Spirit opening our eyes to behold Christ crucified for us. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 120 Registered: 10-2002 |
P.P.S. I might add this: We who were raised in Adventism were always concerned about getting the right truths, that is, the right doctrines, ideas, beliefs, teachings. Our teachers tried to get us to memorize all the right information (so we could "pass the test"---we treated the end-times like SATs or MCATs). We thought that knowing the right things would bring us closer to God. We thought that knowing the right things would keep us from falling. Our salvation, we thought, was based on how much we knew. But Isaiah says, "By His knowledge My righteous Servant will justify many". It's Christ's knowledge that saves us---not our own. We see through a glass dimly. We know in part. He knows in whole. We will also know in whole when He comes. For now, He has not expected us to know in whole! In Galatians Paul rejoices that they came to know Christ---or rather, that they were known by Him. The emphasis, Paul says, is that God knows you. Knowing that is the wonderful, wonderful key! It is good to learn knowledge, it's good to get further and further grounded in Him. Yet we are to be forever set free of having our salvation depend on how well we understand. After all, it is the children whom we are to model in entering the Kingdom. All our seeking of knowledge & wisdom from now on is to be that which draws us deeper and deeper into living relationship with Him Himself (not with theology about Him... we all know many people who know many things about Him but may not know Him personally at all... many people know a great deal about celebrities but have never met them in person). This is one of the things that we idolized in Adventism---getting the facts right so that we would not be deceived. It was another one of our works. And we are/were not alone in this, for many other churches are also in the same boat. Lots of us try to evangelize under this same paradigm. And we all need to be set free of it into the Gospel of Christ and life by the Spirit----life in dependence on Him instead of on ourselves. To hear me say this may be fearful for some. The moment we even hint that knowledge is not the top thing, many of us fear that it opens the door to deception. No. Trust God and fall back into His arms. It's His knowledge of you that saves you more than your knowledge of Him. Not only that, it's His knowledge of your loved ones that saves them more than their knowledge of Him. I don't know how it all works theologically, nor do I know how it will work in each situation. But I do know that He is faithful, especially when we look to Him to guide us and to be Himself to us. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 805 Registered: 1-2003 |
What do you all think of this???? More Ellen worship! Who is this Ellen White? Artist Elfred Lee's Testimony of Rabbi Joe Kagan's Endorsement of Ellen G. White "I met Rabbi Joe Kagan at Weimar Institute in CA. His family had come from Eastern Europe where his aunt had been raped while a priest stood over her with a crucifix saying, "This is what you get for killing Christ." So you can imagine the feeling of many Jews towards Christianity. American Christians are not at all like Europeans. His family moved to the US while he was young. At age 13 he debuted at Carnegie Hall as a cantor. He had a beautiful, tenor voice. He received a very high education and became a rabbi. I met him in his later years in 1978 after he had been on Ronald Reagan's staff in Sacramento as their research man. If there were any questions about any subject, he was the one that did the research and found the answers. He had a very negative attitude towards Christianity. He would never touch the New Testament. However, he knew the Jewish Old Testament (Torah) extremely well as a highly educated rabbi would. One day he got hold of a book called Patriarchs and Prophets by Ellen G. White. He read it with astonishment and wanted to know who this Ellen White was. That is when I met him. He was asking who is this Ellen G. White and what university did she attend. We told him she only had a 3rd grade education. "Then where did she learn Hebrew?" he asked. We told him that she never knew Hebrew, but was the most prolific female writer in history and that this was only one of her books. He was amazed at her knowledge, saying that the information in this book (Patriarchs and Prophets) is Mishnaic. The Mishnah is part of the Hebrew scholarship. He said the Mishnah had only been translated into English 30 years ago and that only high-level rabbis knew this information. This is the history of my people and it is very, very accurate. He also said that you have to know Hebrew to be able to write like this because her sentence structure is not English, it's Hebrew. The rhythm the meter, the arrangement of words and expressions are not English. He said it's as if she wrote in Hebrew and it was translated into English. My family and I developed a strong friendship with Joe, his wife and son. As we studied the Bible and some Ellen White books together one day, he said, "I am convinced that Ellen White was inspired by the same Source that inspired the Hebrew prophets. I want to become a Christian. I accept Jesus Christ as my Messiah." Now, he would not have come to Christ through reading the Bible. Even though the Hebrew Bible is full of prophecies pointing to the Messiah, it took Ellen White's writings to prove to him that Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of all the Hebrew prophecies. And only then did he pick up the New Testament and read about his Jewish Messiah. Many times I saw him cry. I was in the middle of a painting commission for a large mural called "Christ The Way of Life" for the world headquarters of the Seventh Day Adventist church in Washington DC. He became very involved with that painting. The painting had originally been inspired by James and Ellen White who had commissioned an engraver to do a black and white drawing of the subject. He confirmed to me that Ellen White's concept was very accurate on the whole plan of salvation in both the Old and New Testament, but that the engraver had misrepresented her concepts. So he helped me in many details to make the painting historically and theologically accurate; especially regarding the sanctuary section, the Hebrew writing on the cross and the last supper scene. He told me to paint Jesus and his disciples at an oriental style table, sitting on mats on the floor - not Roman couches as the medieval arti He approved of the whole painting and we had an unveiling ceremony at the Auburn SDA church in late 1979. He had written a song to go with the painting and sat at the organ as we unveiled the painting. He wept as he sang the words of Jesus on the cross quoting Isaiah, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" He sang and sang and wept and wept, his whole body shaking. There was not a dry eye in the whole church. His voice was so beautiful. The original painting hangs in the new SDA world headquarters in Silver Spring, Maryland where they have posters and Bible studies of the painting. I could never have done it without the inspiration of Rabbi Kagan and Ellen White. I wish they were still alive! We were at his secret baptism in the Bear River above Sacramento on Saturday night, Dec 22 1979. There were four of us present. He could not even tell his wife and son that he was now a Christian. As he came up out of the cold water praising God and singing to his new Messiah, he said, "I am now a completed Jew. I have now accepted the Old and New Testament and the Messiah that all Jewish prophets told us about!" I was recently in Europe giving some workshops on art and some of my archeological work in the Middle East. I happened to meet a Jewish family from Israel. Shalom David was originally from Iraq and his wife from Chile. They were now attending a college in Europe where I met with quite a bit of opposition to the writings of Ellen White. This Jewish family invited me to their home for Shabbat (Friday night supper). It was a most enjoyable occasion as his wife and beautiful children sang and celebrated the arrival of Sabbath as Jews have done for thousands of years. I told them the story of Rabbi Kagan and he got very excited. He said, "The same thing happened to me! I would have rather burned the Bible than touch it! I wanted nothing to do with Christianity, but I also read the writings of Ellen White and the Spirit of God was on that woman. Her writings are as if she wrote in Hebrew. You can definitely hear the Hebrew rhythm, meter and expressions in her books. I also believe she was inspired by the same Source as the Hebrew prophets. And she has helped me fall in love with Jesus Christ, my Messiah." I just met yesterday with a rabbi living here in California - Rabbi Ben. It was a follow up to a Sabbath meal I was invited to this last Sabbath with him and a group of Adventists. He went through the whole ceremony at the meal just like Rabbi Kagan and my new friend (Shalom David) in Europe had. So yesterday we were talking over Hebrew ceremonies and how they are still effective in healing disease. Rabbi Ben told me that he has also had the same experience. He hated the Bible but that Ellen White brought him to Christ and helped him read the New Testament and fall in love with the Messiah. He also told me that he had gone to visit one of the most influential rabbis in America who is in his 90s who must remain unnamed. While in this rabbi's library talking, he was scanning the many, many books on his walls and there he saw the book Patriarchs and Prophets by Ellen white. Rabbi Ben asked him about it and where he had gotten it, "Why do you have this book by a Christian author?" The rabbi said, "This as a very authoritative source on our history." I recently shared this testimony on T.V. at 3 Angels Broadcasting Network. My phone has been ringing day and night by interested people from as far away as India and Australia saying, "we want to know more about Joe Kagan and Ellen White." The book Patriarchs and Prophets can be found in any Adventist Book Center or at the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists on old Columbia Pike, Silver Spring, Maryland. Posters of "Christ The Way of Life" can be found there. |
