| Author | Message | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 123 Registered: 10-2002  |
I know that the Adventist doctrine of the state of the dead or soul sleep has been discussed a lot on here, and I hope this doesn't go over any of the aforementioned ground (if it does, please give me a link). We have a lot of different reasons for guessing why the Adventism exists, what function it serves, how it re-inforces other bad doctrines. But in the few bits of literature I read as an Adventist, there seemed two major reasons for the doctrine, and I think these are the "root" of the belief: 1) FEAR. 2) Desire to differ. The first and largest reason was fear of deception, fear of being lost. They didn't have assurance of salvation because it was based on works. Legalists (of every denomination) prefer to focus on identifying falsehoods and on the many ways you can be lost. But I think this fear was very strong because of the resurgence of spiritualism in America in the 1800s. It was a "fad" at the time, and one which the early Adventists sought to quickly get into the "false" category. The logical extension (in their minds) of believing what the other churches believed would lead to susceptibility to spiritualism. Afraid of deception, they naturally sought to make sure all the "correct information" was out (in Adventism and other legalistic churches, it is knowing the right information that saves you). Just like many people who rail against modern fads (i.g., Harry Potter, The Da Vinci Code, New Age, etc.), they railed primarily against something they saw as a grave, grave danger. The second root was the desire to be different, the desire to be the true church and point out the error/deception of other churches. This is basically just pride. ***** So what's the title of this thread about? At a Christian bookstore here in Osaka, I picked up this old little book by Oscar Cullmann, a short work called: "Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Dead? The Witness of the New Testament". His main point is to contrast the Greek belief of immortality of the soul with the Christian belief of resurrection of the dead. When Paul went up to Athens, they listened to his message attentively with no laughter until he mentioned resurrection of the dead. The reason, Cullmann argues, is because the Greeks believed in an immortal soul. This is easily visible in the death of Socrates. Death for them was a liberation. The body was evil, and death set you free. But the Christians declared a new creation was coming, and a resurrection. Of the "interim state" between death and resurrection, Cullmann prefers the Biblical term "sleep" widely used by the apostles and first-century church. Yet Cullmann cites Romans & Corinthians to show that in this state we are not alone---that we are with Christ in this state (neither life nor death separates us from Him) and that it is even better than living because we have left the sinful body behind and are with Christ. The Holy Spirit has not left us in death, Cullmann believes. ***** I think it's interesting. I have a few things to say about this. First, is that I don't know how important or un-important this question is. Generally, it's not a big thing, I think. Second, it is interesting that we (Christianity) have embraced the Greek view and dispensed with the term for death that the apostles & early Christians used most: "asleep". I don't doubt that part of this abandonment of the term is due to Adventism's unhealthy belief & focus on the point. Yet were I to suggest the metaphor of "asleep" when someone dies, many Christians (especially here) would likely "correct" me. A third thing I note is that we're often shy about declaring the resurrection. Parallel to Jesus' more continuous-life comments in the book of John, He also talks a lot about the resurrection of the last day. The books of Paul are littered with the hope of the resurrection. In a way it reminds me of Yancey in "The Jesus I Never Knew" talking about how we're often shy of telling people about the world to come----I think we're afraid of sounding foolish. I noticed this shyness in myself when we were having a prayer time & Bible study with my wife's sister, who was baptized last November. She loves animals, and we ended up talking about animals' sufferings and the death of pets we love. I showed her Romans 8 which talks about all of creation groaning and longing for the freedom we have in Christ. All creation waits for the day when "the sons of God are revealed", because then it too will be set free from bondage and decay. This sounds a lot like resurrection! We read the story of creation in Genesis with awe, but we miss Revelation 21 saying that God is going to make a new creation---and I believe we're going to get to see it! I don't know about you, but to me that's just plain exciting! And at the same time, within us we already are a new creation! In Christ we have been "born again"---born of the Spirit, born from above. This new creation's firstfruits are already inside of us. Our bodies wait to catch up with what has transpired already in our spirits. All in all, the "resurrection" shows God's love for all of creation, you know? Not only us, but everything. He doesn't make junk. A fourth thing I note is that many Christians are becoming more aware that humans are "three-part beings". This is especially and widely-taught in Charismatic churches. Humans have a spirit, a soul, and a body. Yet even Charismatic churches, when they hear the expression "soul sleep", seem to believe that soul & spirit are the same thing. I'm wondering, if we believe we're three part beings, then why is it so crazy to think that the "soul" part sleeps with the body? One needn't go to the Adventist extreme of saying that the "spirit" is inanimate breath and returns to God, because God says He'll never leave us. His Spirit is given to us forever, and His Spirit remains with our spirit. Where (locally) does our spirit go? I have no clue. Yet the idea of going to heaven in an incomplete form (minus body) and then returning to earth for resurrection is a bit strange, although not altogether impossible. I simply don't know. I think one of the problems must be in the localized way we see things---by physical location. Cullmann's conclusions are interesting. He doesn't make the three-part distinction, yet he clearly says that we are not alone in death because nothing can separate us from Him. I suppose the question then ought to be, are we conscious in death? From the New Testament metaphor of "asleep", I'm inclined to think that we're not---unless like Samuel we are "awakened". But since the New Testament is not clear on the matter, it's better not to guess too hard. Of the "longing" for a heavenly body (a spiritual body) in 2 Corinthians 5, Cullmann believes it shows that we long to have a body---not to be pure spirit as the Greeks hoped. God created us to be both spirit (and soul) and body. If we are missing one, we are incomplete and will be longing for our completion. Like the martyrs under the altar in Revelation, it seems that death also represents a time of waiting... but again, a waiting that is not alone (we're with Christ), and that is not non-interruptable (as with Samuel), and that is likely not on the same "time" as those who are living. Anyhow, these are some of my thoughts. If you'd like to read Cullmann's book, it's at these two links: http://www.geocities.com/pastorkeith/cullmann.html http://www.religion-online.org/showbook.asp?title=1115 And here's a short bio on him at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Cullmann | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 772 Registered: 4-2000  |
Ramone, An excellent, 315-page book by Dr. Robert Morey, entitled "DEATH AND THE AFTERLIFE," is a classic on this topic. The late Dr. Walter Martin said of this book, "The most comprehensive biblical study of the subject in the last half century!" Of special interest to former Adventists about this book is that Dr. Morey goes point by point with the claims of the late SDA apologist, L. E. Froom. You can obtain this book directly from Dr. Morey's website: www.faithdefenders.com (the cost is $14.95). This book is immensely helpful for the reader to better understand the hermeneutics of death. This book should be required reading for every Seventh-day Adventist. I consider this a must-read type of book. Here is an powerful and relevant statement by Dr. Morey on his website: "We are chosen by the Father, purchased by the Son, and sealed by the Holy Spirit, blessed God Three in One!" In awe of Calvary, Dennis Fischer | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 23 Registered: 6-2006  |
This is an interesting thread! Growing up, I was raised with the belief that when you die, your spitit goes "home" to be with Jesus, and when he comes back your body is resurected and reunited with your spirit. After that you recieve a new glorified version of yourself. In questioning my husband, I always wondered what he thought of the verses in the NT about "to be apart from the body is to be present with Christ" (excuse my lame translation). He couldn't really explain it other than "It's like if you're on a trip to Disneyland and you fall asleep on the way. Then when you get there your parent's wake you up". I always thought that was a weak theological explanation... Anyway, I was wondering if there were any other explanations out there for how SDA gets around the "present with Christ" verses. Also, my extremist bro-in-law at one time exclaimed that humans don't really have spirits and that we're completely connected with our bodies. Is this just his personal belief, or is that actually part of the "Soul sleep" doctrine?  Leigh Anne | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1409 Registered: 7-2003 |
I've heard the "present with the Lord" explanation means "well, I won't know any different." They presume a gap in time that the text does not imply or state. As a matter of fact, from the greek teacher I know, he says the form of the grammar iss here or there, like off or on, no intermediary state in that construct. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1828 Registered: 3-2005 |
"We are chosen by the Father, purchased by the Son, and sealed by the Holy Spirit, blessed God Three in One!" Dennis, I like that motto on Robert Morey's website and recommend that book, and another one of his books that is a must read is "Studies in the Atonement". Stan | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 111 Registered: 1-2004  |
Cullman's view about death pretty much sounds like the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Christian teaching about death. The Oriental Orthodox especially have a wholistic view of humans where death is something totally un-natural and never was a condition we were designed to be in. Therefore the importance of the resurrection... getting us back to the way we were meant to be. Not to sound human-centered, here... But God didn't create humans for death. Jeremiah | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4241 Registered: 12-2003  |
Leigh Anne, the Adventist belief in "soul-sleep" is that the spirit is not conscious and is, actually, our literal breath. Some think it sort-of includes our personalityówhich at any rate disappears at deathóbut what goes to God is just our breath. We die like animals. In evangelical circles, some actually believe in "soul-sleep", but it's not defined the way Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses define it. It's more like the state Agepatos described above, in which they believe our living (made alive by the Holy Spirit) spirits go to be with Christ but are not conscious of things around them; they are existing in Christ. 2 Corinthians 5 is especially interesting. It clearly says that to die and lose our mortal tent is to be "unclothed", a state we (note that consious identity of "we") do not wish to be in. The chapter suggests that when our spirits are unclothed at death, in the loss of the mortal tent, they are cothed by the Lord Jesus until the resurrection when we receive glorified bodies. Verses 8-9 are especially interesting and really suggest that our spirit's condition in death is more than an unconscious sleep: "We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. Paul indicates that we can please Him in a decisive way when our spirits are with Him in death. I realized that Paul writes in 2 Corinthians 12 that 14 years previously, he had been taken to the "third heaven" and had seen things he was not permitted to tell. That date predated the writing of any of his epistles. When Paul writes about the condition of humanity in death, he is not merely writing somewhat unknowingly about revealed facts he couldn't explain. He actually was in heaven and SAW the condition of the dead in Christ. He writes from first-hand knowledge and instruction from Christ Himself. Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 25 Registered: 6-2006 |
Colleen, I love it! There's another verse that comes to mind, which for the life of me I can't remember, but it concerns the Saints who have already died in Christ and ask when their deaths will be avenged. Is it in Revelation? Anyway the issue was the fact that these Saints were obviously conscious. In asking my husband about this verse, he explained that those people were special, and that ordinary people like us wouldn't actually go to Heaven. It's interesting with all these beautiful verses that someone would actually make up a whole other theory that contradicts them. I mean, why would a person rather "sleep" than "be with the Lord"? I guess that's the whole "desire to differ" that Ramone wrote about? | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 482 Registered: 5-2002 |
It was always explained to me as existence only in God's memory. God would unite His memory of whatever character I had developed at the point of my death with my new body when the resurrection occurred. Assuming, of course, that I had passed through the Investigative Judgment and been accounted worthy of eternal life... | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1367 Registered: 10-2004  |
Leigh Anne, You wrote: "Also, my extremist bro-in-law at one time exclaimed that humans don't really have spirits and that we're completely connected with our bodies. Is this just his personal belief, or is that actually part of the "Soul sleep" doctrine?" Yes, that is exactly what they teach! You can click here to read a previous post of mine about some of the implications of this heretical doctrine that humans don't have actual spirits. Jeremy | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 26 Registered: 6-2006 |
Jeremy, I thought he was crazy when he said that, considering how many scriptures contain "spirit". Of course this guy focuses almost all of his knowlege on EGW. It's gone so far with him that he's touring the world with a replica of the sanctuary called "Kings Castle". Talk about heretical! Now there's another gospel. But that's another story... Thanks for the link! Freeatlast, I hope you make it through. hehe! | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 27 Registered: 6-2006 |
Okay Jeremy, I just checked out your link, and all I have to say is... Right on brother! My husband and I once had a conversation with a guy who brought up the question "Do you think that Jesus is God?" and my husband replied yes. The next question was "Do you think that God would ever be unconscious?" and my husband replied no. So the next question was "What do you think was happening to Jesus the Sabbath after he died?" and my husband of course replied "He was sleeping". "But you just said that Jesus was God and God would not be unconscious." I know that it made my dear husband stop and think. When we got married, I wouldn't allow EGW into the house. I didn't know why I resented her so much back then, but now I'm really glad I made that decision. And thankfully now I totally understand why I resent her so much! Ramone, I'm sorry! I think I sent this post into another direction... | ||
| Accepted Registered user Username: Accepted Post Number: 7 Registered: 6-2006 |
Thanks all of you for this thread, it has cleared up some of my hazy understanding about the state of the dead. I like the idea that my spirit will be with the Lord, not just asleep with HIm, but able to please Him. I think that must mean some type of communication. What a privilege! Martha | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 271 Registered: 7-2005  |
I had struggled a lot with the question of soul sleep. My adventist background kept me from seeing what is indeed in the Bible. I asked God to guide me to those texts which leave no room for interpretation. And finally I found one, it was like an anchor for my faith.
The heavenly Jerusalem is obviously in heaven, angels in joyful assembly are in heaven, the church members have their names written in heaven, Jesus is also in heaven, and "the spirits of righteous men made perfect" are also in heaven, with all of them, with Jesus and with angels. Notice that "the of righteous men made perfect" cannot be those church members who are still alive. These belieevrs are already mentioned, as having their names written in heaven, they are not yet in heaven, they are only there by faith. By faith they are already there, they are already with the spirits of the saints made perfect in heave. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 126 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi all, Jackob, real quick about Hebrews---in Hebrews 10 the author talks about us having been made perfect forever by Christ's sacrifice, and he's not talking merely about those who have died. I think that using the term "made perfect" to mean "having died" is likely not something people said in the early-church, but is something that came later. Hebrews 10 expresses the mystery that in Christ we have been made perfect by His sacrifice once and for all, and yet we are being made perfect. To other comments--- The "spirit" is something that it's really hard to put your finger on. The best way I've heard it expressed is that it is the real you inside, the real "you" that has been reborn eternal. When I read Scripture and read of who I am in Christ, I know who I truly am. Yet my mind & emotions daily go up and down, and I often forget who I really am. For example, I've been raised up and seated with Christ in heavenly places now. Yet I don't always feel it or intellectually recognize it. But God says it's true. At times He quickens my spirit and I truly do see it. But let's not say "quickens"---let's rather say that my spirit bursts through my soul and speaks louder than my soul does! (Or the Holy Spirit speaks through my spirit to me---Paul in Romans says that the Spirit witnesses with our spirit.) I don't know if I can definitively say that my spirit is "awake" or "asleep" when I die. Someone has described the Christian life as a process of becoming less "soul-conscious" and more "spirit-conscious"... that is, we're on a journey of getting to know who we really are in Him, on a journey of getting to know our own spirits. We're not used to spiritual knowledge. We're babes in the things of the Spirit and in the world of the spirit. We learn to walk in the Spirit. We learn to talk in the Spirit and we learn to live and see by the Spirit (by the Spirit, and through our own spirit which is made by God). In life I know that I am not always aware of my own spirit. It's all jumbled together for now, but that may change. As I look at Jesus, it sometimes becomes clear for an instant, but it's all part of this wonderful mystery He's made us to be. Others have said that we are born with a dying spirit, but when we are born again (born of the spirit), we are born from above---our spirit is from above, a new, eternal creation. In this way it seems clear to me that the text Jackob cited from Hebrews 12 refers to all who have been born from above, born of the Spirit, all who live in Him---whether they live or die. ***** I'm wondering what others thought of Cullmann's writing... try one of the links, it's not too long and not difficult. (Thanks Jeremiah for your comments about the similaritiy to Orthodox beliefs! I didn't know that! Feel free to share more.) I'm wondering what everyone thought of Cullmann's highlighting of the contrast between the Greek beliefs and the early Christian beliefs. Can we ignore the Greek influence? And finally, I'm wondering again why we have abandoned Paul's preferred term "asleep" (which Christ also used). The combination of Christian + the Greek idea does seem more immediately comforting, but it seems to eliminate the usage of Paul & Christ's "asleep" metaphor (or marginalize it to referring to the body alone, in which case it would be almost altogther unnecessary to use the term at all, because in 1st Thessalonians, it would seem Paul could comfort them about their deceased loved ones with the Christian-Greek belief instead of saying that those who "sleep" will be resurrected). | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 272 Registered: 7-2005 |
The text already spoke about those believers who are on earth, "to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven". Obviously, they are still on earth, only their names are in heaven. The scene described here is a heavenly reality, not earthly. After mentioning Jesus, angels, the Bible talks about spirits of men, other spirits than angels, who are also spirits. it's a spiritual realm, a spiritual reality, a heavenly. More, they are righteous men made perfect, not righteous only by the imputed righteousness of Christ. On the earth they were righteous, they were perfect by the imputed righteous of Christ, but now they are more than righteous, they are justified saints made perfect.
Another passage is Revelation 6:9-10 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 125 Registered: 11-2005 |
Thank you Agapetos for your thoughts, and the links. This is a topic I've been somewhat avoiding. Your post made me contemplate it again. I found the idea of the greek influence on our idea of death really fascinating. As an Adventist, and even as a former, I guess I thought the idea of going to heaven after you died seemed a bit silly. I understood that our spirits remained alive, but I didn't really understand what the point of the resurrection would be. Why would we want to be reunited with our bodies? Are all these spirit beings just floating up there in heaven? And then, I would visualize people in heaven looking down on people here at earth, and it just didn't seem right. It never really made sense to me until I actually read your links. It does make sense to me, that we are "asleep" and in waiting mode for the resurrection, but while we're "sleeping", we're sleeping in Christ (in Christ literally, not just figuratively). Maybe He's holding us or something? Well whatever way we are "with Him", it is not the same idea that we are still like we were on earth, but walking around bodyless in a new place (heaven). That is clearer in my mind now. I guess the part that is still fuzzy is whether we are in a conscious state, like 2 Cor 5:8, 9 suggest (Colleen posted above), or whether we are in waiting mode, unconscious like the term "sleep" suggests. I realize it's not that important of an issue for me to figure out the details of this interim state, as long as I understand that I am alive in Christ, and will always be alive in Him, even through death. I think I'm beginning to grasp the "how it works" a little more though. I think... I liked these passages that Cullmann states: "Confidence in Christís proximity is grounded in the conviction that our inner man is already grasped by the Holy Spirit. Since the time of Christ, we, the living, do indeed have the Holy Spirit. If He is actually within us, He has already transformed our inner man. But, as we have heard, the Holy Spirit is the power of life. Death can do Him no harm. Therefore something is indeed changed for the dead, for those who really die in Christ, i.e. in possession of the Holy Spirit. The horrible abandonment in death, the separation from God, of which we have spoken, no longer exists, precisely because the Holy Spirit does exist. Therefore the New Testament emphasizes that the dead are indeed with Christ, and so not abandoned. Thus we understand how it is that, just in 2 Corinthians 5:1ff. where he mentions the fear of disembodiment in the interim time, Paul describes the Holy Spirit as the ëearnestí." "The ësleepí seems to draw them even closer: ëWe are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.í For this reason, the apostle can write in Phil. 1:23 that he longs to die and be with Christ. So then, a man who lacks the fleshly body is yet nearer Christ than before, if he has the Holy Spirit. It is the flesh, bound to our earthly body, which is throughout our life the hindrance to the Holy Spiritís full development. Death delivers us from this hindrance even though it is an imperfect state inasmuch as it lacks the resurrection body. Neither in this passage nor elsewhere is found any more detailed information about this intermediate state in which the inner man, stripped indeed of its fleshly body but still deprived of the spiritual body, exists with the Holy Spirit." Those were just beautifully written passages to me. Regardless of what state we believe we are in (sleeping or not sleeping), it is so wonderful to know we REMAIN alive, and will continue to be in Him, and not abandoned. Grace | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 126 Registered: 11-2005 |
By the way Agapetos, I liked your thoughts on the Spirit-filled life: "Someone has described the Christian life as a process of becoming less "soul-conscious" and more "spirit-conscious"... that is, we're on a journey of getting to know who we really are in Him, on a journey of getting to know our own spirits." There's definitely a mystery about living with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which makes the death issue a mystery as well. Like you said, it's hard to put our finger on. Our "pleasing Him" that 2 Cor. 5:9 states, may be something that is accomplished in a way spiritually that we just can't grasp as humans, regardless of whether we describe it as a conscious state or unconscious state. I'm just thankful that I'm not fearful of death anymore, and that God in His grace and mercy, let me get a glimpse of the joys of what living with His Spirit is like, and through time and even through death, the awesomeness of it will be revealed completely. Praise God! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1368 Registered: 10-2004 |
Wow, there's so much on this thread that I could talk about! First of all, just let me say that there are some very good resources on this subject available at http://www.sdaoutreach.org/ The term "sleep" is used to refer to believers who have died, as a metaphor, because their bodies are merely "sleeping" (again, metaphorically) not "dead," since they will be resurrected. But the term "sleep" merely refers to the body and does not at all imply that their spirits/souls are "sleeping"--and certainly not entirely unconscious, which is how the SDAs (erroneously) define "sleep"! If we become totally 100% unconscious then we would cease to exist--as the SDAs teach. Therefore, a resurrection would not even be possible. It would not be me--it would be a new person. If my consciousness totally ceases then it could never start up again! It would be a different person. Timothy Oliver does a great job of explaining this in the short (12 min.) audio file here. As for a "sleep" state of not being totally unconscious but also not being totally conscious or conscious of your surroundings, etc.--the Bible does not support that either. The verses that Jackob posted (Revelation 6:9-10) shows this, and Jesus' account in Luke 16 definitely shows this. The dead are fully conscious, aware of their surroundings and what's going on around them, etc. They can still hear, talk, communicate, see, move around, etc. In hell, even the physical "phantom pain" is so real that it as if the person still has a body (see Luke 16, and also a great explanation of this in The Problems of the Afterlife by Samuel Fisk, which is available through http://www.sdaoutreach.org/). Additionally, the spirit of Samuel obviously did not have to "sleep" when apart from the body--it was brought up from Sheol/Hades to the surface of the earth and interacted with/spoke to Saul and prophesied (a true prophecy, by the way!). I totally agree that death is unnatural and that we are not complete without a physical body--thus, the importance of the resurrection! The resurrection is still the ultimate, complete hope. But still death is a much more wonderful state than living here in these old, sinful bodies; Paul says it is "very much better"! Indeed, when we die we will fly away (as Psalm 90:10 says), to heaven to be with Jesus Himself--and be free of these sinful, painful, sick bodies and looking forward to getting our perfect, immortal bodies at the resurrection. Also, touching on the 2 Corinthians 12 passage that Colleen mentioned, Paul talks about being caught up to heaven and says that he doesn't know whether it was in the body or apart from the body. But according to SDA theology, there would be absolutely no possibility of going to heaven apart from the body and hearing "words, which a man is not permitted to speak" (verse 4)! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 01, 2006) | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 78 Registered: 4-2006  |
Colleen, doesn't Paul speak about another man than himself? "I realized that Paul writes in 2 Corinthians 12 that 14 years previously, he had been taken to the "third heaven" and had seen things he was not permitted to tell. That date predated the writing of any of his epistles. When Paul writes about the condition of humanity in death, he is not merely writing somewhat unknowingly about revealed facts he couldn't explain. He actually was in heaven and SAW the condition of the dead in Christ. He writes from first-hand knowledge and instruction from Christ Himself." |
