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Snaggle
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Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 4:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi everyone,

This is my first post since signing up with the forum and I thought i'd share my experience and where I am currently at.

I have been an SDA for about 14 years now. I joined the church in my early twenties when I was invited to come along by a friend. I absorbed all of the SDA teachings and became baptised in the church and have been going ever since.

Nearly ten years ago I met an SDA and we were married shortly after. She has been an SDA all her life and is a 3rd or 4th generation SDA (not sure which).

I have harboured doubts about SDA doctrine and EG White for some time now. I was initially introduced to the problems by ex SDA pastor Charles Wheeling. The process of doubting the SDA teachings has been slow but progressive over 3-4 years to the point where, now, I (privately) don't really consider myself to be an SDA anymore. Looking back I am glad that the process has been slow as it has allowed me to gradually shift my spiritual focus from the church to Jesus alone.

I am somewhat fortunate that the church I attend, in the South Pacific, is a really vibrant church, preaching Jesus and has a wonderful worship service that I actually enjoy. I do, however, feel uncomfortable now days because of my doubts. I certainly wouldn't invite anyone to the church or introduce them to the SDA doctrines. I would, instead, share Jesus and encourage them to join a different Church.

I have not shared my doubts with my wife as I am unsure how to approach the subject, especially considering it has taken years for me to reach this point. Also, I am hesitant to mention anything as I do not want to add any further stress to our marriage and family, which is already under stress from various reasons.

I am just wondering if others have had or are in similar circumstances and how you dealt with it?

What about children? How does leaving the SDA church affect your kids? I am concerned that it may create confusion for them and cause them to throw away all spirituality.

Many Thanks,
Mike


Colleentinker
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Post Number: 4269
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Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 5:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Mike,

I am so glad to see you here! There are actually many people here who share similar experiences with you. I'm sure you will find much insight and support.

My first advice would be to pray "without ceasing" for your wife and children. Pray that God will open their hearts to receive the truth about Jesus, and ask Him to help you to love them for Him, that your own love for Jesus will make such a profound difference in your family that they will be predisposed to listen to you talk about Him and the reality of what you are discovering.

Ask Him to give you opportunities and to know when and how to speak. It will eventually be impossible not to talk to your wife and maintain integrity, and I'll be honest: things may "get worse" before they get better! But God is faithful, and He wants your wife and children also to know Him as you have come to know Him. He will walk with you, and He is faithful to hold your heart and mind safely in Jesus.

I' will pray for you and your wife...

Colleen
Violet
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Post Number: 440
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Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 5:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mike,
So glad you found us. There is a wealth of experiance in the posters on this site. All seem so willing to lend a hand anyway they can.

I was the 3rd Gen SDA and my husband was the converted one. One thing that he would always do was whenever I said something that did not seem right to him he would simply ask me where that was in the Bible. Easy enough, I would then run to my Bible to show him---problem was frequently I could not find it--the chipping away at the shell of Adventism began. It also took me several years to fully come out. Be patient with her--especially if she has close family still in the church.

It was hard on my kids because I pulled them out pretty much cold turkery--I would not recommend doing that. They need to have friends that are main stream so the transision is easier. My youngest who is now 14 she was 8 at the time we left is very strong spiritually. She has developed the skills to question what others say to her by coming home and looking it up in the Bible then returning back to her teacher with an answer.

You do have a hard path ahead of you, but you have a great support team here and Jesus will hold you in the palm of his hand. He loves you and your family more that you could ever know.

Best Blessings
V

Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 31
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Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 5:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Mike, Welcome!

I'm sort of a newbie here too. Let me tell you - everyone here is so nice and knows just about everything you need to know about what is so wrong with the church. I've really appreciated being able to come in and learn a lot and recieve comfort as well.

I'm not or have ever been SDA but I married a 5th generation SDA. My husband's family is big, and everyone is SDA, including some preachers in our family. I'm really glad you asked your question. My husband knows how much I disagree with the church and EGW's writings, but I can't muster up the courage to tell him that I've been spending time in this forum. My angle is that I never want our children to be wrangled in to the SDA church or be guilted into joining by the people they love.

Blessings to you - you've come to the right place!

Leigh Anne
Melissa
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Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 5:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leigh Anne, how do you keep them out? Doesn't your husband expect you to take them there, do you go yourself, go elsewhere or how does that work logistically?

Welcome, Mike. I'm a never-was, but have a son with an SDA.

(Message edited by melissa on July 06, 2006)
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 2641
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Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 5:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcom Mike,
You are where God wants you here on this forum. He brought you here, like he has brought many of us. Ask any questions you want and there will always be some one to answer them.
I agree with Colleen and her advise to you. Pray and pray and pray some more. God has you in his hands and He will not drop you. He is so awesome.
Diana
Grace_alone
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Post Number: 33
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Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 6:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Melissa,

We don't go to SDA church at all, but every 3 or 4 years we go through some challenges. When I met my husband he was strict SDA in every way, no movies, no jewelry, no meat, no lard, etc. But then he went off to LLU and I think he went to 6 movies a week, Vegas at the drop of a hat, you name it! When we married, he stopped going to church altogether, while I went to my Lutheran church without ceasing. When the babies came along I told him that since I was active and he wasn't I'd take them with me. We sat in church without him every week for the first 4 years of my oldest's life. Then during some marriage problems he decided to start coming with us and has come ever since for the last 3 years.

However, every couple of years and as recently as a month ago, he asks when we can send them to the academy or when can we start exposing them to Adventism. This sends me into orbit (and not in a good way!) He still says that he holds to the Sabbath, and insists that the kids should be able to make their own decisions. Oh yeah, they're 7 and 4.

This is why I'm here. I'm learning so much and receiving a lot of comfort! This experience has frustrated me for 20 years. Hopefully all of the knowledge I gain and the Holy Spirit of course, will help my husband just let go for good. And be able to protect our kids in the process!

:-) Leigh Anne


Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

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Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 8:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leigh AnneóI will pray for your husband and you.

Colleen
Agapetos
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Username: Agapetos

Post Number: 152
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 8:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leigh Anne, I'm praying for you too. I'm praying for your kids & husband... they don't need to know the Sabbath day, they need to know Jesus!

When I was still Adventist but had left the church, I used to look down on other Christians who were so passionately in love with Jesus because "they didn't even have the truth!" Their passion for Jesus was all the more ignorant to me during that time. I myself did not love Jesus, but people who loved Him without "the truth" (i.e., Adventism) were doubly annoying to me at that time.

Mike---

Welcome & may God bless you as you hold onto Him through this time. I echo what Colleen said, and add to it that the best you can do for each member of your family is to introduce Jesus to them. Pray with them. Love them. Carry their burdens. Tell them of Jesus. Tell them how much He loves them, and how they are saved not by their own faithfulness, but by Jesus' faithfulness to them. The more they begin to see Him, the better.

Blessings in Jesus,
Ramone Romero

P.S. Remember that Jesus is your Sabbath rest! Somehow, He has finished the work! He has seen this in advance, and though it is difficult and may likely become more difficult, it is finished in Him. Rest in Him through every step. Bless you bro.
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 34
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 9:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen and Ramone, thank you!! My husband's name is Wayne. As much as he goes through my motions with me, he's obviously still hanging on to "the truth". I've never met anyone who loved their wife as much as mine does, and yet I wonder what he really thinks of me and my faith.

Mike, I'll pray for you and your family! As my sister likes to say, "We take care of each other".

Leigh Anne
Randyg
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Username: Randyg

Post Number: 218
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Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 10:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Mike,

You have asked many pertinant and challenging questions. I was born into the Adventist Church 47 years ago, and finally 2 years ago I took a close look at why Adventism was different than Christianity. The things I had been taught growing up I never questioned. I had no sense of biblical context. I knew all the Fundamentals, and just assumed there was support for all of them. My study has led me to conclude otherwise.

I formally left Adventism 9 months ago, I am at peace with that decision because I studied for myself, and in my own mind I am confident that it was the Lord's leading. The Lord leads each one to the truth in His own time. My time happened to be now.

My wife remains Adventist, and is a very thoughtful evangelically progressive Adventist. She has a strong relationship with Jesus and I believe she understands and recognizes the denominational challenges. She continues to reflect the fruits of the Spirit in her Christian walk and is where God wants her for now.

My 4 children are ages 16-21, and they are all thinkers. They have been respectful of their parents, but have long ago recognized much of the hypocrisy in Adventism and the theological problems.The fact that I have left Adventism, but not my Adventist friends and family, has I feel, allowed them the opportunity to study and decide for themselves without the fear of parental dissappointment. The freedom from bondage I have gained, has allowed my children to be more honest in their study knowing that its okay to think for yourself, and believe what the Bible tells you even if it is different than traditional Adventist dogma. Those of my children who have and continue to attend "our" Adventist Academy have been blessed with Bible teachers who have encouraged them to think for themselves and to trust and depend on Jesus. They have promoted Bible study and have been tolerant of diverse opinions, and respectful of differences.

If your children are younger you can still focus them on Jesus and His gift of salvation.

I would start sharing with your wife some of the things that are challenging you. She might react in shock and not know what to do, but eventually she will also start to see the problems. It takes time because it is a HUGH paradigm shift from Salvation by Works(Adventism) to Salvation by Grace(Christianity).

You have found here a mighty fine group of prayer warriors here. Diana, Colleen, and the gang have direct lines upwards. Let the Lord lead and remember that your doubts about Adventism are most likely promptings from the Holy Spirit. Lead and live your live with honesty and integrity, and all these things will be added unto you.

Love Jesus and live Jesus,

Randy
Patrickfoy
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Username: Patrickfoy

Post Number: 51
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 8:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Mike and Leigh Ann-
There is a site that has helped to express my feelings to other SDA's by using the bible and using a lot of patience, prayer and love. The truth will REALLY set you free, it has for me.
The info on this site is amazing and bibical.

www.truthorfable.com

I am praying for you also

Patrick
Pheeki
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Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 8:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Sabbath is usually the tie that binds. For whatever reason...I have known people who have never picked up a bible but emphatically swear that they believe the Sabbath. Not sure why...unless it was so emphasized in their childhood (brainwashing) that they are just programmed to believe in Sabbath. Couldn't quote a bible text but totally believe in Sabbath!!!
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 35
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 9:19 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Patrickfoy, (Now there's a fine Irish name!) And thanks for your prayers. I like truthorfables.com as well as SDAoutreach.com. The audio files on the latter are great and so easy to understand.

Pheeki,

I hear you~ Most people, SDA or not, will insist that the 10 commandments are the ultimate authority on morals. Then the Adventist church takes that and runs with it to guilt people into believing that the Sabbath is THE LAW.

Snaggle
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Username: Snaggle

Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 1:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you all very much for your affirming and encouraging words - it means a lot. There certainly seems to be a good mix of people here each with their own unique experience in leaving the sda church.

I look forward to sharing more over time and would appreciate your prayers
91steps
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Username: 91steps

Post Number: 67
Registered: 8-2005


Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 5:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My wife and I were first generation SDA's, to the best of our knowledge we are the first to become SDA's on either side of our families. My gut instincts told me that something was wrong with what we were hearing during the Amazing Facts Seminars we attended, but ignored them (STUPID, STUPID on my part, they NERVER failed me before).
Anyhow, about 4 years after getting baptized I went to work at the SDA churchs World HQ, (aka the GC) in the Security Dept). I was estactic, I would be working with no on ebut SDA's, no more "worldly" people to deal with. Aas the saying goes, be careful what you wish for. The things I witnessed really shook my faith, I actually stopped attending ANY church for over a year after one very bad incident I saw.
I am blessed or cursed with very high morales, comes from my upbringing and my Military background. And what I was witnessing at the GC just didn't set right with me.
Fortunately God had other plans for me, and He opened a door for me to get away from the GC. How was I going to act going back to work in "the world"???? Ends up being the BEST job I have ever had, best pay, benefits, etc.
Anyhow, I had to give up my job at the GC, for reasons I will not cover again. I was still working on call, but I could not continue to work there anymore, I had done LOTS of praying and reading my Bible and decided I had to leave the Church also.
My wife is very involved with the church we attended, and I support her and she supports me. My prayer is she will come to the realization that the SDA church is NOT the true church and leave as I did.
What galls me is I had stopped attending that church over 1 1/2 years ago, and about 1 year ago the church appointed my wife to all sorts of offices. Now I hardly have free time with her, even though my new job gets me home each day in mid afternoon.
Am I bitter, not that much, I just continue to pray for my wife. I am glad that she supports me in my decision to leave the church. I now attended a nice Messianic Jewish Congregation, and pray that my wife will get a free Sabbath to attend with me.
Anyhow, does anyone know if there is a support group/web-site for those of us who have left the church and still have a spouse who is active?


91steps
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Username: 91steps

Post Number: 68
Registered: 8-2005


Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 5:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My wife and I were first generation SDA's, to the best of our knowledge we are the first to become SDA's on either side of our families. My gut instincts told me that something was wrong with what we were hearing during the Amazing Facts Seminars we attended, but ignored them (STUPID, STUPID on my part, they NERVER failed me before).
Anyhow, about 4 years after getting baptized I went to work at the SDA churchs World HQ, (aka the GC) in the Security Dept). I was estactic, I would be working with no on ebut SDA's, no more "worldly" people to deal with. Aas the saying goes, be careful what you wish for. The things I witnessed really shook my faith, I actually stopped attending ANY church for over a year after one very bad incident I saw.
I am blessed or cursed with very high morales, comes from my upbringing and my Military background. And what I was witnessing at the GC just didn't set right with me.
Fortunately God had other plans for me, and He opened a door for me to get away from the GC. How was I going to act going back to work in "the world"???? Ends up being the BEST job I have ever had, best pay, benefits, etc.
Anyhow, I had to give up my job at the GC, for reasons I will not cover again. I was still working on call, but I could not continue to work there anymore, I had done LOTS of praying and reading my Bible and decided I had to leave the Church also.
My wife is very involved with the church we attended, and I support her and she supports me. My prayer is she will come to the realization that the SDA church is NOT the true church and leave as I did.
What galls me is I had stopped attending that church over 1 1/2 years ago, and about 1 year ago the church appointed my wife to all sorts of offices. Now I hardly have free time with her, even though my new job gets me home each day in mid afternoon. This is because my wife is so active with her church duties/offices
Am I bitter, not that much, I just continue to pray for my wife. I am glad that she supports me in my decision to leave the church. I now attended a nice Messianic Jewish Congregation, and pray that my wife will get a free Sabbath to attend with me.
Anyhow, does anyone know if there is a support group/web-site for those of us who have left the church and still have a spouse who is active?


Flyinglady
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Post Number: 2651
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Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 7:40 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

91 Steps,
This forum has many couples like you and your wife. They will let themselves be known when they read you post.
I will continue to pray for you and your wife every day.
Diana
91steps
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Username: 91steps

Post Number: 69
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Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 1:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, we need all the prayers we can get. My wife's one Aunt was trying to get her to come to work where she does, the Govt, as a contractor. But my wife is too comfortable working at the GC now.
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 4289
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Sunday, July 09, 2006 - 10:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

91 StepsóPraying for you and your wife.

Colleen
Cw
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Post Number: 108
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Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 12:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Mike. Like Melissa and Leigh Anne I'm also not a former but I'm here for other reasons. Leigh Anne, thanks for sharing some more about you. It's easier to pray when you have some specifics. And your husband's name, Wayne is easy to remember because that's the "W" in CW.
Agapetos
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Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 2:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

91steps---

Where do you live? I'm from Silver Spring and was born at WAH (then called "Washington Sanitarium", haha), although I now live in Osaka, Japan. But I know there's a former Adventist church up in ...Fredrick, I think?
Doggy
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Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 6:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Mike,

I am finally engaging my dad over Adventism and that's scary to me. I have no doubt the Lord will lead you and your wife through this. When I finally left Adventism it was because of the book titled "Sabbath in Crisis" by Dale Ratzlaf. The book is so simple yet so clear. I had no choice after reading it but to thank Jesus for my peace and security and walk away from Adventism.

I had already been seriously doubting Adventism for a couple years before that so it was just the proverbial straw for me. My wife was very gentle and sneaky in getting me to read it. She left it laying around and periodically would make some neutral comment about what she'd read. It was my own curiousity and pride that caused me to pick it up. Of all the things I doubted in the church I had been sure I could defend the Sabbath.

Of course the Lord will have to lead you but that's what did it for me. Bless you and your family, I will pray for you.

In Christ,
David
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 50
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Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 7:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Doggy,

Just yesterday I was about to order "Sabbath in Christ" by Dale Ratzlaf. I wanted to read it myself, but then leave it around the house so my husband would pick it up. (I can't believe you just wrote all that!) Anyway, being that we're on one income, his, I chickened out.

You know, he has come to church with me almost every Sunday for 3 years now, and yet this last Sunday there was a scripture read with Jesus going to the synagogue on Sabbath and my husband said "See, I didn't come to change the law, but to fulfill it." (Proof text!) So I tried (but not very well) to tell him that Jesus gave us a new covenant and he just shook his head at me!

I just found Hebrews 8:13 "By calling this covenant "new" he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear"

That, along with the whole chapter says it all!

Anyway, Doggy, thanks for your post. I think I will order that book.

Leigh Anne
Esther
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Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 8:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leigh Anne, here's a small segment from the article on that verse from the WCG site.
Sorry it's so long :-)

Matthew 5:17ñ19 ó
In Matthewís account of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said:
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17ñ19)
People have frequently appealed to these scriptures as proof that "the law" continues to be binding on Christians today. This is usually in response to the claim that Jesus did away with the law by his death on the cross. For them, the meaning is that Jesus came to show what the law really means; or that Jesus fulfilled the law by obeying it perfectly, thus setting the perfect example for Christians to follow as they, too, fulfill the law.
There are problems with interpreting Matthew 5:17ñ19 in these ways. Note, first, that in verse 17 Jesus was speaking of the Law and the Prophets, not of the law only. Jesus did not restrict what he had come to fulfill to the Mosaic Law code. He said he also came to fulfill the prophetic writings.
Second, Jesus said that "not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished" (verse 18). If Jesus meant by "the Law" the Mosaic Law code, then even the most minor law of the old covenant has ongoing validity. This would mean that every ceremonial and sacrificial law continues to be binding on Christians. Few, if any, Christians believe that they must obey all the laws of the old covenant that God gave to the nation of Israel 3,500 years ago.
Therefore, what did Jesus mean when he said that he did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets but to fulfill them, and that nothing would disappear from the Law until all is accomplished?
Jesus fulfills the Law and the Prophets by bringing them to their intended eschatological climax in himself. He fulfilled and continues to fulfill in himself all the types and prophecies of the Old Testament that pointed to him. Jesus made this clear after his resurrection. On the road to Emmaus with two of the disciples, Jesus revealed that everything that had recently happened in Jerusalem was spoken of by the prophets. "And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself" (Luke 24:27).
Shortly afterwards Jesus appeared to the assembled group of apostles and disciples in Jerusalem. He said to them,
This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms. (verse 44)
Luke here records Jesus as saying he fulfilled all three parts of the Old Testament ó the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms. (Psalms are representative of the Writings, as they are the first book of the third section of the Old Testament.) Thus, it appears that "the Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 5:17), "Moses and all the Prophets" (Luke 24:27), and "the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms" (Luke 24:44) are synonymous terms for "all the Scriptures" (Luke 24:27).
In verse 18 of Matthew 5, Jesus makes the point that nothing will disappear from the Law until all is accomplished. What did he mean by "the Law" here? It is unlikely Jesus meant the Mosaic Law code. That is because verse 18 builds on what Jesus said in verse 17. To repeat the full phrase "the Law and the Prophets" was unnecessary. "The Law" here represents all the Old Testament writings. (In John 10:34 John quotes Jesus as using the term Law in this way. Jesus asked the Jews, "Is it not written in your Law?" and then quoted Psalm 82:6. In this instance Jesus clearly referred to the Hebrew Scriptures as a whole, not just the Pentateuch. See also John 12:34 and 15:25.)
The fulfillment ("until everything is accomplished") takes place in the ministry, passion, resurrection and exaltation of Jesus, as well as his subsequent reign culminating in the age to come. We can then take Jesusí words literally, rather than having to make artificial distinctions about what laws Jesus may have had in mind that would not disappear. In Matthew 5:18 Jesus was emphasizing that nothing in the Old Testament that pointed to him could fail to occur.
Then Jesus proceeded to say that:
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (verse 19)
What specific commandments was Jesus referring to here? Did he mean all the commands of the Old Testament, from the least to the greatest? If so, then the early church was wrong in concluding that physical circumcision was unnecessary to become a Christian. The answer is found in the context of the preceding verses, and in those that follow ó the Sermon on the Mount. The commandments of the Old Testament are fulfilled in Christ (Romans 10:4), and as such are redefined and magnified according to his teaching.
Some laws of the old covenant, through their fulfillment in Christ, are not binding on Christians today. They include the ceremonial and sacrificial laws that foreshadowed Christ (Hebrews 10:1). However, other laws clearly do have application in the life of the Christian. In Matthew 5:21ñ48, Jesus illustrated how certain old covenant commandments now applied through their fulfillment in him. He did not make Old Testament laws more binding so that Christians now obey according to both the letter and the Spirit, thereby enabling them to surpass the righteousness of the Pharisees (verse 20). Rather, he redefined the law of God and showed its full spiritual intent. He established the spirit of the law as the norm for Christian behavior instead of the letter of the law (Romans 7:6).
Sometimes the letter of the law and the spirit of the law complement one another, as in Jesusí teaching about murder and adultery (Matthew 5:21ñ30). With other laws, Jesusí spiritual teaching overrides the letter of the law, as in divorce (verses 31ñ33). Elsewhere in the Gospels we read of Jesusí application and defining of the law of God as fulfilled in him.
Thus, we should not see in Matthew 5:17ñ19 Jesusí confirmation of the law of the old covenant as the law of God for Christians. Rather, Jesus explained that he fulfills in himself everything to which the Old Testament Scriptures point. He illustrated how the law of God given to Israel is transformed through its fulfillment in him. Scot McKnight captures the essence of Jesusí teaching in the Sermon on the Mount:
In using his own teachings as the basis for righteousness, Jesus revealed that the OT Law and Prophets (Mt 5:17) were being fulfilled in his own teachings and that he is the Messiah. Jesus fulfilled the Law and so revealed a new standard of conduct (Mt 5:20). From the cross onward, the righteousness of Godís people is determined by conformity to the teachings of Jesus, which in turn fulfill the OT revelation of Godís will. Jesus expects his followers to be righteous in their conduct (Mt 5:6, 10), to do Godís will (Mt 7:12, 13ñ27) and to pursue justice (Mt 23:23 [krisis]; 25:37; Jn 7:24). According to Jesus, only those who are righteous are finally acceptable to God (Mt 10:41; 12:37; 13:43, 49; 25:46; Lk 14:14; Jn 5:30). Again, this righteousness is not an outward conformity to the Law or an appeal to ritual observances, but the necessary fruit of commitment to Jesus as Messiah and Lord. Jesus illustrated the link between commitment and obedience at the end of his Sermon on the Mount: "Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them... (Mt 7:21ñ27). ("Justice, Righteousness," Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels [InterVarsity Press, 1992], 413)
Grace_alone
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Post Number: 51
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 8:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Esther! I'll have to print that up and study it some more.

It's so frustrating because I've "understood" (taken for granted) all these things all my life, but if you asked me to back them up with scripture I'd be lost. Thankfully I knew enough not to get swept up in Adventism, although I questioned myself numerous times and cried when I got the finger of EGW pointed at me.

Now as I feel the sense of urgency on my own children (in equipping them against "the finger") I'm actually learning so much more about my own faith. There's a lot of back-tracking to do, but I rejoice, as I'm growing.

:-) Leigh Anne
Colleentinker
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Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 11:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leigh Anne, God is guiding you. I believe you won't be sorry for ordering that book!

Colleen
Doggy
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Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 2:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Leigh Anne,

If I recall correctly your husband is basically a very backslidden Adventist right? If that's the case I see it in my own past and in my sisters right now.

For many years I recognized that it would be impossible to become perfect, or even keep the sabbath, so I turned my back on God. I did a lot of bad things for many years and when I say that I can assure you I went deeper than a lot of sinners. My sister is basically a lost person now due to the same beliefs. I have hope for her and I trust God is leading her according to His will because every so often I see her hunger for knowledge of Him.

My dad, on the other hand, is a highly successful emergency room director. He has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years supporting "independent historic adventist missions." At one point he was so angry with the liberal leanings of the conference that he broke off and took about 75 people with him. For about four years he singlehandedly bankrolled a paranoid bunch of ellen white addicts until his group finally all left. They were called "The Waldensian Fellowship for Evangelism," and they were based in Tri-Cities, WA.

Anyway, I think my point is that I always had distrust of Adventism, and so did my sister. Until I saw the truth of Jesus great love I lived as a hedonist. I am getting that book for my sister because I suspect knowing the sabbath is nothing anymore will finally open her eyes to an all loving God.

I do think you should get that book. It'll strengthen your understanding and perhaps give your husband that last bit of peace he needs to let go and embrace grace.

You're in my prayers

In Christ,
David
Grace_alone
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Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 7:32 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good morning!

Colleen, payday is Friday so I think I will order "Sabbath in Christ". If anything I know it will be helpful for me. :-)

David, yes, my husband would be labeled a backsliding Adventist if anyone just came right up and said it out loud. It's been kind of an avoidance since we've been married. My husband comes to church with me and the kids, and even volunteers, but will go to the trouble of lying to his Mom on his whereabouts Sunday mornings. We had a fight about that recently and he just wouldn't budge. However, as time goes by he's started to volunteer at our church and has a developed great friendships with our pastor and worship team leader. If I tease him and call him "Lutheran" he gets real quiet and gives me a bit of a dirty look. It's like he's in denial. In my heart of hearts I fear that one day he'll just decide to go back to his old church and take the babies with him. I hate that!

Thank you for your post. It was very helpful and gives me some hope...

:-) Leigh Anne

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