| Author | Message | ||
| Doggy Registered user Username: Doggy Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2006 |
Hi guys, here is my first post. I've been struggling with alot of my own issues over the years but I am eternally grateful. No matter what there is nothing sweeter than knowing I'm saved. I have been out of Adventism roughly six years. My family at first shunned me but now my dad constantly looks for ways he can bring up Adventism. I am prepared to give a logical answer for any question. I will inclue a small section of my email to him. I have been reluctantly impressed that my relationship in Christ can only grow more as I embrace his will. This is a scary thing to me, will I lose my dad again? He wanted the debate but he doesn't lose well. I am walking in faith. The spirit in me has been softly nudging me forward. I am a lonely voice out here in the heathen world but I know so many of us usually are. I want to bring you as members of my Godly family into my struggle with my father. Even though I know the truth I'm almost overwhelmed. To me it's like playing with old dynamite. I can't waste time. So please help me with the best approach. I work long hours on the weekend. Thanks for having me guys, my thoughts are coming.Starting off, I'm going to take a little time with my approach. Dad, you and I agree it's inescapable that the end of the world is at hand. It's good we can agree on that point. Beyond that we have two different viewpoints on what that end is going to be. I confess I don't have a solid belief concerning every aspect of Christs return but I do believe that Adventism fully established through Ellen White is wrong. The Adventist church can't stand without the prophecies of Ellen White. While I won't have a packaged prophetic view for you I will have challenges against Ellen White I believe are flawless. Scripture is clear. We are to disregard anything else from a "prophet" if what they say doesn't come to pass. My reasons for leaving Adventism are deep and detailed and I am prepared to share them with you. For many years I have held back from this because I was afraid to lose you. Coming out of Adventism has been very difficult and scary for me and I felt it would be even harder for you. For quite a few years I have accepted you being a Historic Adventist. I have been at peace with you remaining as you are hoping you would respect my choice to worship God according to my own conscience. You wouldn't leave me alone dad and that's ok because I know you hunger for purity and peace. I struggle with those desires myself all the time. I am often begging God to purify my heart because I want to be like Jesus. I will never grow tired from struggling with my flesh because I am driven by the Spirit to be holy. The fundamental difference between us is our motivations for perfection. I have no doubt that I am saved. 2 Corintians 5:5. I am driven to be like Christ because I love Him, and obeying Him brings me intimacy. Salvation is secondary. Full on communion with God is my constant desire. On the other hand I see you trying to reconcile grace and forgiveness with a need for immediate perfection. I know in my heart that you don't understand the change of covenants. I know it's hard to accept that salvation really is free. I believe that the Spirit changes us through love when we are converted, not out of a constant fear of damnation. I love a God who would rather die than live without me, why shouldn't I take him at his word? I won't engage you with scripture at this point. Adventism's "logical" foundation is circular. I will question Ellen White. Think about it, do you hold any doctrine contrary to the writings of White? Are you prepared to defend all of her writings? She is the prophet of your church and can not be wrong, or she is a false prophet and all of Adventism is wrong. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4278 Registered: 12-2003  |
Doggy, welcome to the forum, first of all, I'm so glad you've made yourself known! We look forward to getting to know you. Second, your letter to your dad is so gentle and kind and lovingóhe may not like what you say, and he may not like the Ellen challenge you give him, but he cannot truthfully say you are angry or assaulting. You know your dadóbut without knowing him, I think you have approached this in a wonderful way. I like how you refrained from engaging with Scripture because "Adventism's 'logical' foundation is circular." That is wise, and you really have approached the issue of Adventism by focusing on its true foundation. Personally, I was not able to take in all the doctrinal and covenant arguments openly until I lost faith in Ellen. As long as I thought she had been used of God in any way, I had a doubt that my assesment of the Bible could be true and still different from hers. I had to give her the benefit of the doubt. What a wonderful letter. Keep us posted. With prayers for you and your dad, Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1854 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi Doggy, Welcome to FAF! I like the screen name as my screen name riverfonz is the official name of our standard poodle. I identify with your story. My situation was similar in some ways. My father was the strictest SDA I ever knew, and over ten years he slowly saw the errors of Adventism. I posted a tribute to my dad here at this link: http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/4028.html?1142748229 At first, he loved to argue with me and for many years our relationship was very strained. But the Holy Spirit worked gradually on him. He is now attending an evangelical Sunday church and at the age of 90 plays the organ there. But it took many years. Please feel free to email me about any other questions and discussion about this. riverfonz@aol.com Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2645 Registered: 3-2004  |
Doggy, Welcome to FAF. You will find all kinds of information here and can ask all kinds of questions. I will remember you and your Father in my prayers. God Loves your Dad. Diana | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 784 Registered: 4-2000  |
Doggy, Welcome to our conversaton cafe! We don't even drink Postum anymore, so you will feel right at home. Anyway, we are delighted that you joined us. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 220 Registered: 12-2004 |
Welcome Doggy, We are glad you are comfortable enough to share with us. We look forward to helping in any way we can. Randy | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 36 Registered: 6-2006  |
Hi Doggy! This is a wonderful group of people here, and you've come to the right place. God bless you and your Dad,  Leigh Anne | ||
| Doggy Registered user Username: Doggy Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2006 |
Thanks for welcoming me guys. I'm going to start preparing my first example of fraud and plagiarism by Ellen White next week. I was thinking of focusing on the incredible similarities between John Miltons "Paradise Lost" and "the Great Controversy. But I am also considering a detailed examination of the "shut door" and how Ellen White supported completely unscriptural positions. Simply said, why would God lie to his children then reject them from salvation for refusing to believe his lie? Which way should I go? Thanks, David | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 39 Registered: 6-2006 |
David, have you plugged into ellenwhite.org and sdaoutreach.org? (notice the ".org") They both have excellent resources on all subjects Adventist. I believe both are web sites set up by former Adventists. | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 302 Registered: 6-2001  |
Board friends, meet my husband, Doggy. Congenially, Hannah | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4284 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hey, Doggy! So nice to "place" you! I remember praying for you every day for many months shortly after this forum went online, and Hannah was posting. She told us her husband was still Adventist. Praise God for His work in you!! Colleen | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 224 Registered: 12-2004 |
David, you are in my opinion trying to do the impossible. There is no amount of Scripture that will convince an Adventist that they might be wrong. Only the working of the Holy Spirit in their life will allow them to even consider that they might be in error. For every objection you raise there will be a set response using prooftexts, or Ellen White. Many Adventists even when presented with all the proof of failed prophesies, extensive plagiarism, theology counter to the Gospel, salvation by works, copied health message, contrived IJ doctrine,etc,etc, will still cling to Ellen White as a prophet, because without her they have nothing. This is all they know! They cannot believe that Christ's sacrifice at the cross is enough to secure our freedom from the bondage of the law. Romans and Galatians are not, and can not be accepted at face value by an Adventist. These two books alone when accepted as written make Adventists unique doctrines null and void. This is hard for a true blue Adventist to understand,I know because that was me for 35 years. It is very difficult when you realise that the whole denominational foundation you have not as yet questioned, is built on very questionable theology, solely supported by a prophet who made mistakes theologically, historially, medically, was venomous and spiteful to people who challenged or disagreed with her, and claimed it was all divine revelation. I know some dear Adventist friends(and they are great Christian people) who know the Ellenwhite.org and the TruthorFables.org sites better than I do, and it makes absolutely no difference. Instead of holding her to the standard you would for anyone else making the claims she does, these sites are summarily dismissed as Ellen White bashing by disgruntled formers. This response is of course without merit, once an honest assessment of the facts are reviewed. I have to trust God that in his time His will, will be done. I have concluded that debate is futile and useless. I am there to share my understanding and perspective when asked, and I am prepared to share what Christ has done for me. Beyond that, my life is dedicated to supporting those I love, and trying to reflect God's goodness to those in my influence. Reflectively and somewhat Pensively,(sorry) Randy | ||
| Doggy Registered user Username: Doggy Post Number: 3 Registered: 3-2006 |
EllenWhite.org was a great source for me. Between it and Truth and Fables I found the ability to ask serious questions of my Adventist pastor in Michigan. He was unable to answer my questions and that led me to the famous "red" books. It was all over after that. I want to look him up someday, I had the feeling he was uneasy with the church as well. I understand what your saying Randy, that's why I'm going to go real careful and in prayer. I just think God is pushing my dad and I along this path. I've been very diplomatic with him over the years yet it's risen to this level of urgency. I have a good feeling about all this. I see God in it. Thanks again Colleen, and everyone else, I am very happy to have made it here. God bless you all. David | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 226 Registered: 12-2004 |
David, EllenWhite.org was a great reference source for me as well. It was very helpful in bringing into focus a myriad of problems that had been troublesome for many years. If you feel the Holy Spirit is leading in this path, by all means press forward. I have come to recognize that God will open doors, and provide opportunities to share the unadulterated Good News about salvation. It is most wonderful to realize that we do not have to convince anyone of our position. The Good News speaks for itself. Once people gain an understanding of how simple and accessible the plan of salvation is, slowly but surely the grips of bondage are loosened and freedom in Jesus becomes our focus. Over the last year I have corresponded with many Adventist Pastors and Thought leaders. It is truly amazing the diversity of understanding they present in private while maintaining the party line in public. As Ellen White is the focus of the discussions you are having with your father, you might find the following relevant and interesting. I will respect the confidentiality of the Pastor out of courtesy and respect. As I shared my journey with one of the pastors at the General Conference he was quite frank and forthright in response. And I quote " You put your finger on the central issue facing the Adventist Church in your statement: "Ellen White is often the chief and only support for Adventism's unique doctrines." The fact that she's been dead for more than 90 years doesn't seem to register with most of the members and leaders in the church. We are indeed trapped in a "theological straightjacket" that prevents any semblence of theological exploration and discovery." He continues " I admire you for publicly taking a stand on the side of Christ and the simplicity of His gospel. I could hope that as Adventists become more perceptive in evaluating the Bible's teachings, perhaps more formal progress could be made in that direction among the church's membership at large. But frankly, I've observed the opposite. The appeal from the grassroots and leadership in general is: "Standfast--don't change a thing." That doesn't create a climate of growth." "Thanks again for your correspondence. I'm committed to moving the church forward to the extent that I have any influence. Progress is incremental and sometimes barely noticeable, but perhaps our children--if they're still in the church--will inherit a church more in harmony with Christ and His teachings than is today's Adventist Church." This Pastor continues to serve on the GC committee, and seems to recognize some of the problems that have influenced those of us who have left. There continues to be a spell, or bondage on those who, even though they recognize the problems, are not yet impresses to take decisive action. I continue to pray for these people as I know their struggles must seem overwhelming at times. I will continue to pray for you as you share with your father. The Holy Spirit will nurture the seeds you plant, and will grow the garden of grace you present. Peace and blessings, Randy | ||
| Cathy2 Registered user Username: Cathy2 Post Number: 161 Registered: 2-2006 |
Doggy, Welcome! I really relate to what you said about "They don't lose well." That is like most of my SDA family. They don't seem to understand that we are not into a winning thing; a competition about we being right, only about a loving Savior.The Gospel. And my dad is like yours. Your letter was very gracious. If your dad is like mine, though, it, probably, won't do any good,if he likes to argue Ellen (some do). Only through the Holy Spirit and your loving goodness, by Christ in you, can there be something done, imho. Overcoming evil with good, as the verse says. Not that your dad is evil, but the 'veil' enveloping his eyes and ears against the truth of Christ; Evil does not want that veil to go away. Keep the connection of a loving and respecting/honoring son with him. Let that light of Christ shine into the darkness, no matter how Ellen he gets. Pray for patience and strength, so that the enemy doesn't let your irritation get to you (if it does) and show to him. I do that, when I need Christ (always!). When he is old and needy, be there for him; you never know when the defenses will break down. (My dad is there, now, but his haven't. I think Ellen is his security) My dad doesn't argue anymore; he just wrote me and my children off to hell, now, but we love him. Once in ahwile, he will give my grown son an Ellen pamphlet. I figure prayer and love is all that is left. I don't believe he is going to hell. I believe God's grace is vaster than that (and vaster than we can imagine in our puny human minds) for pepole who were deceived in childhood and this is all they ever knew. I am glad that we are all here for you and that you are not alone. There are many people who sure understand about stubborn SDA parents! Prayer and love can be just as stubborn! Be at peace in Christ~ Cathy |
