| Author | Message | ||
| Nicole Registered user Username: Nicole Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2006 |
i'm sure this has been discussed at length before, but in a nutshell, what is the investigative judgement? | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 502 Registered: 7-2004  |
You sure asked a tough question, Nicole! For being the only distinctive doctrine of the SDA church, this one sure does have many interpretations and keeps changing! The original IJ doctrine, (it's hard to state in a nutshell), states that on October 22, 1844 Jesus moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in the heavenly sanctuary to investigate the lives of all who have professed to be believers, starting with the dead and moving on to the living. What's being investigated is the life of the "Christian" to see if all sins have been completely confessed and forsaken. EGW even goes so far as to say the character cannot have one spot or blemish on it or the person can't be saved. She further states that it requires "hard, stern battles with self" to overcome character flaws so that a person can pass the investigative judgment. Shortly before the Second Coming, Jesus will announce "he who is filthy let him be filthy still, and he is clean let him be clean still." and then starts the journey to earth - which is supposedly to take 7 days, I think. During the time the IJ is complete (no more intecessory work by Jesus) and the time He actually appears at the Second Coming, believers who have been sealed by becoming perfect and pronounced "safe to save" will live perfect, sinless lives. They have to, because Jesus is done forgiving sins. Over the years, as more SDA's realize how impossible EGW's IJ teaching is, such as who could possibly ever be saved, the adjustments to the doctrine have kept coming. The main adjustments I've heard the most about are 1) that instead of having to reach perfection, only the trend of a believer's life is investigated; and 2) the IJ is mostly about vindicating God's character to prove that He is just and fair in who He ends up saving. All theories believe that during the 1000 year millenium, the saved will be in heaven reviewing the books to see proof of God's fairness. This doctrine, more than any other, is entirely anti-gospel and is the biggest cause of fear because most SDA's are certain they can never pass this judgment and be saved. (Message edited by Raven on July 07, 2006) | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 442 Registered: 2-2001 |
Raven you did a good job. It had me scared to death! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1378 Registered: 10-2004  |
One additional facet to this doctrine is that right before Jesus comes to earth (the Second Coming), He places all of the sins of the righteous on Satan, who they teach is the scapegoat of Leviticus 16. Satan then atones for the sins of the righteous and suffers the penalty for their sins. Then and only then are the sins of the righteous "blotted out" of existence. (During the Investigative Judgment [also known as the antitypical "Day of Atonement"] the sins are "blotted out" of the record books once a person "passes" the judgment.) Ellen G. White also says that only after the sins of the righteous are placed upon Satan, are their sins separated from them and "remembered no more" against them. She also says that only after that will it be safe to claim we are saved. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 07, 2006) | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2644 Registered: 3-2004  |
There is one other "fact" not mentioned and that is at some time before Jesus leaves the temple to return to earth, we on earth will be without a mediator. We will be standing alone. BLASPHEMY!!!! Diana | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 37 Registered: 6-2006  |
Okay, I have a question, if I were to ask my father-in-law (A lifelong SDA) where I could find that in scripture, what do you think he'd say? I've been aware of some of this doctrine for years, but since none of it made any sense to me I've just written it off as rediculous. Now that I know that it's affecting the way my loved ones think and feel it makes me really upset... Thanks, Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4280 Registered: 12-2003  |
Leigh Anne, it depends upon how well-versed your F-I-L is in Adventist proof-texts. If he's well-versed, he'll have texts to offer. Of course, they will be taken out-of-context and probably misinterpreted or misapplied, but they are the texts Adventists learn to support their doctrines. They are taught, of course, that all their doctrines are based on the Bible. If he doesn't know proof texts, he'll probably bluster a bit and declare that he can find them. They use a lot of circular reasoning, and it's really confusing to talk to them. But what they believe about the IJ is nothing short of blasphemy, as Diana has said. Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 38 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi Colleen, My F.I.L. is very well versed in Ellenology. He constantly quotes her and has several sets of her library in his bookshelves. I have no doubt that he'd have the texts to offer. You're right, it is confusing to talk to them. Over the years we've all made it sort of a habit to not discuss these things with each other. I guess they've come to know my stubborness on the subject? Recently when I had a rare conversation on the subject with my husband's sister I asked her if she believed that Salvation is through grace alone and I remember her Dad making eye-contact with me but not jumping in. (which is equally as rare as this man never runs out of things to talk about!) My next question would be, what would be the best way, Biblically of course, to refute IJ? I realise that people will believe what they will, but for my own equipping, (and my babies) where the heck do I start? This whole subject of Adventism has been looming in my life for too long. I feel like only now have I had the courage to really face it. Thanks for your help! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2649 Registered: 3-2004 |
On CARM, where a number of us post, we will quote various Bible texts and the SDA just do not read it like we do. I have written recently that the Bible says that Jesus sits at the right hand of God(Eph 1:20, Col 3:1, Heb 1:3) and one person still insisted the IJ is Biblical. He kept trying to convince me, even referring me to some Adventist writings about the IJ. I told him I did not read anything about the IJ in the atonement passages in the OT, in Hebrews or Revelation. I finally told him I was leaving him in God's hands because it was not my job to convince him. I put it like this-It is God's job to convince and the last time I looked at myself, which was a few minutes ago, I was not God. He may or may not come back with a remark. I will put your FIL and you on my prayer list. God is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 28 Registered: 1-2006  |
Hi Grace Hope this helps. http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw36.htm Bob | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 42 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi Diana and Bobj, Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I've been to both sites before but sometimes get so overwhelmed by all the info. I guess I should take each subject on it's own and slowly get to know them that way. One of the very first times I visited the Chula Vista SDA church they had a reinactment of the "great disappointment". I remember thinking "Well this is a lousy way to start a church. That woman sounds like a false prophet!" I told my future husband that, and he just thought I was being silly and didn't "understand". I'm glad I never fell for it. Regarding IJ, it makes me think that EGW thought that Jesus wasn't really God, but some lesser being who has to do everything manually. I picture this guy sitting with a bunch of huge books piled high, taking no-doze and frantically thumbing through each page, making notes and double checking all his lists. Thats whacky!  Leigh Anne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1381 Registered: 10-2004 |
Actually, she even presents the same scenario for the Father. And Jesus she represents as even lesser than the Father and on an equal level with Satan. But yes, the IJ is totally whacky! It's the Santa Claus religion--"making a list and checking it twice, gonna find out who's naughty or nice." Jeremy | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 131 Registered: 11-2005 |
You're right Jeremy! It is the Santa Claus religion! I never thought about it that way before. I don't know how I ever took it seriously! I've spent hours learning it and trying to understand it. Even more hours fretting about it! Grace | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4285 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy, how funny! I love that description! Leigh Anne, have you read Dale Ratzlaff's "The Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventists"? If not, I think you'd find it really helpful. It is a clear, systematic explanation of how the doctrine came to be and what its implications are according to Biblical reality. You can get the book online through www.LifeAssuranceMinistries.com. Colleen | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 303 Registered: 6-2001  |
The two verses that seem to refute the IJ most clearly to me are the ones that state emphatically that Christians are not to be judged: John 5:24 "I assure you, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life." That sentence "has eternal life" jumped out at me some time ago. God has given us eternal life NOW. He does not promise it later for those who remain faithful. Right now, it is ours because we are not going to be judged. Romans 8:1 "So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. 2For the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you through Christ Jesus from the power of sin that leads to death." That whole Romans 8 chapter actually is very fulfilling. I will refrain fom posting all of it, even though I was tempted Scripturally, Hannah | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 225 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hannah, John 5:24 jumped out at me as well about 2 years ago. I had just purchased the Nelson Study Bible which uses the NKJV. In the words of Jesus "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death into life". How anybody can still support the IJ doctrine in any derivation is beyond me, when it is completely counter to the words of Jesus our Redeemer. In the Nelson notes on this verse the commentator points out that "A judgement to decide a person's eternal destiny is no longer possible for one who has already been given eternal life. However, all believers will stand before the judgement seat of Christ(see Rom. 14:10; 2Cor 5:10), not for punishment of sin, but to determine inheritance in the Messiah's kingdom." I would also suggest that anybody who is challenged by this doctrine should read Dale Ratzlaff's book. It is extremely well done and extensively footnoted.(anybody in my area can call me for a copy, no questions asked!) Randy | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 43 Registered: 6-2006 |
Good morning friends - Jeremy, EGW must have had a Little Golden Book of "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" that she plagerized to support IJ. HA!! Colleen, thanks for the book suggestion. Do you think they make any of these books in a "brown bag" version? Hanna, Randy, those verses are perfect! I should have known. There are a lot of wonderful verses in Romans that refute SDA doctrine. I guess I'll have to actually open my Bible and study. (I'm a "classic Lutheran") Leigh Anne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1384 Registered: 10-2004 |
Leigh Anne, Another great passage which totally refutes the IJ doctrine is the following:
Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4290 Registered: 12-2003 |
Leigh Anne, I don't know of oneócan you have it sent to an address other than the house? Or is the problem actually reading it in your house? Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 45 Registered: 6-2006 |
Colleen, that's okay. I was halfway joking. I haven't told my husband about this forum yet, and I've just only told him a few things about what I'm learning about EGW. He has agreed with me a couple of times that there are problems with her writings. It's just a touchy subject and if I bring it up he either gets really quiet, changes the subject, or he'll say "I've told you before I don't care about that!" I'm afraid that if I start bringing these books into the house he might shut down completely. (Although I really do want to read them!) It's a blessing enough that he comes to church with us on Sundays. There is Good news though - we ran into my old worship team leader last night and he invited us to come to a Bible study (Thesalonians) this week. Wayne was very receptive, as he likes the guy and respects him a lot. I'm very excited about it, we both need it! Leigh Anne | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2654 Registered: 3-2004 |
Leigh Anne, I will be praying for you and your husband. God will change his heart and mind. Have fun with the Bible study-enjoy it and be happy. God is always so awesome. Diana | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 46 Registered: 6-2006 |
Thanks Diana! I appreciate any and all prayers. I'm really looking forward to starting a new Bible study, especially together. It's been a long time since I've been involved in one, (and I don't think Wayne has ever joined one) so I'm expecting that it'll be a blessing for both of us. Leigh Anne p.s. Diana, I always enjoy reading your posts! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4295 Registered: 12-2003 |
Leigh Anne, I'll be praying for you and Wayne and these studies. Colleen |
