| Author |
Message |
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 567
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 6:11 am: |     |
Yes! Yes! God loved (and loves) us despite our confusion and misunderstandings. And He has promised that He will complete the work He has begun in us. And so he loves the 'others' who so appall us with their apparent ignorance (and sometimes the one whose actually ignorant is us).
Blessings,
Mary |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1902
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 9:44 am: | |
But Ramone, are you willing to apply the same criteria to SDAs? I am not willing to concede that someone such as Joel Osteen or T. D. Jakes (who denies the Trinity) can in any way be considered to be fellow travelers.
We have to draw the line somewhere. God considered correct doctrine very important. Otherwise He wouldn't have given us his inerrant word. I am troubled by lax attitudes towards those who claim to be Christians who are clearly teaching false doctrines.
Stan |
Segue
Registered user
Username: Segue
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 10:44 am: | |
Hi all:
Thanks for welcoming me to the forum. My background? Dad took us to the episcopal church when we were young, though mom was raised Roman Catholic. By high school I was the only one attending church - a small congregational church in our little town in NH - at least until the pastor informed the congregation that God did not really exist. The purpose for churches, he claimed, was to be a vehicle for teaching morality. Since I was dating a buddhist woman at the time I decided to study Buddhism. Through various traumatic events during my college years (72-76) I mostly forgot God & religion - figuring either really didn't exist or didn't like me for whatever reason. I lived a crazy life of sin until my last year of college when I had a dramatic conversion experience and went looking for the only 'Christian' I knew among my circle of work/school friends - she happened to be an Adventist. I asked her to take me to her church. About 7 years later I was a SDA minister astoring in Kansas, a role I served in from 1982 until 2005.
About 15 years ago my studied led me to dig deeper into the various denominational beliefs of Adventists - begining with what the gospel really was. I found the gospel could only be fully understood by not only realizing what happened at the cross, but also by understanding more about the incarnation. The incarnate God lived and then died for all. Since Adventism is a rather well-woven tapestry (paradigm), once a particular thread is pulled, the whole thing eventually unravels. Everything is cleverly interconnected. Pretty soon I found I didn't have much left. I remained in my pastoral postition for years during this process of study patiently giving time for my wife to re-examine these same themes (she was also a convert).
A year in a half ago we announced our 'retirement' and moved to NC to pursue ministry in a different manner. I had not only discovered beliefs in Adventism that did not match up with my understanding of scripture, but I also discovered that the Adventists were not alone in 'riding' along on traditional interpretations, rather than following God's plan. We found in the emerging church movement a greater willingness to re-examine all aspects of church -while maintaining a deep and vital commitment to Christ. So, here we are. |
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 55
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 10:54 am: | |
Segue,
Great to hear from you! It took courage to not only leave the SDA church, but to leave your job too. Are you starting a new church where you are now? |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1903
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 11:51 am: | |
Segue,
The emerging or emergent church movement is quite broad and has a large diversity of belief and practice. There are some exciting churches like Mars Hill in Seattle under Mark Driscoll, who uses some emergent principles, but is Biblically very orthodox. So I would be interested in hearing more of your take on this new, interesting movement.
Stan |
Lydell
Registered user
Username: Lydell
Post Number: 746
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 3:38 pm: | |
U2Bsda, my husband and I have been part of a Vineyard fellowship for the past 10 years. We love the solidly biblical teachings. Yes, it is a Spirit-filled (with no hype) congregation with contemporary worship and a much more laidback style than what you find in mainstream churches. |
Windmotion
Registered user
Username: Windmotion
Post Number: 304
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 7:39 pm: | |
Being from Seattle I have heard of Mars Hill, and I'm sure it is a very nice church, but all I can remember of them right now are some very negative and unloving quotes from them that appeared in the local paper pertaining to gay people. For that reason I would never attend that church.
Unfortunately,
Hannah |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1907
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 8:25 pm: | |
Hannah,
Those remarks that Mark Driscoll made were in a context of his discussion with Bruce McLaren, the foremost leader of the emergent church movement. McLaren would not admit that the Bible condemned homosexuality as a sin, and Driscoll called him on it. The newspaper probably overplayed the story, but Driscoll did apologize later for some of the bluntness of his comments. But Mars Hill is one of those churches that draws seekers with it's upbeat music and style, yet doesn't compromise or water down the gospel.
Stan |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1908
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 8:28 pm: | |
And here is a reposting of a link to a story Christianity Today did on Mars Hill:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/127/52.0.html
Stan |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4332
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 9:34 pm: | |
Segue, I find your comment that in order to fully grasp the gospel you had to understand not only what happened at the cross but also more about the incarnation to be so insightful.
You have touched on what I consider to be at the foundation of the Adventist deceptionóin spite of orthodox-sounding definitions in print, Adventists do not actually believe in or teach the real Jesus. They believe he laid aside His divine advantage (even though they say he was 100% divine) and was born a human who inherited Mary's inherent fallen nature but was without sin, like Adam.
In reality, Jesus carried his "divine advantage" throughout His life. Without it He could not have felt the grief and sorrow over lost Israel and the lost Gentiles and Samaritans that he carried with Him. He could not have become a curse and sin for us. He could not have physically endured what He did without His "divine advantage".
Further, he was conceived of the Holy Spirit and therefore did not have to be born again. He was born WITHOUT original sin. He was spiritually alive from the moment of conception. This fact is what made Him the spotless Lamb of God. He was without sin, even in His spirit. The incarnation was nearly inexplicableóthe invisible, immortal Godócompletely other than usóbecame visible in a human body. He was not a "super human" nor a "reduced god". He was the Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer made visible in a physical body.
You're rightóthe gospel as I understood it in Adventism did not feature a completely sovereign, immortal, divine God in human flesh. It featured a reduced god who set aside His divine advantage, who, as I was taught, had no advantage I didn't have, and who inherited sinful (or fallen flesh, as some say). Such a god really isn't all that remarkableóit's certainly not a god who warrants the title King of kings and Lord of lords!! It's not a god whose death could possibly have done everything needed to reconcile all things in both heaven and earth to Himself.
Colleen
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Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 183
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 10:30 pm: | |
Welcome Segue!! I look forward to hearing more of your story!
*****
Stan---
Yes, I most certainly want to apply what I said to SDAs! We typically want to separate ourselves from those who have 'unclean' doctrine---but I believe God is calling us to receive His heart for these people, even SDAs, and be on our faces on their behalf so that all the junk from EGW (etc.) can be left behind at the foot of the cross. The motive of this, take note, is not one that is interested in merely purifying their doctrine or erecting walls to protect ourselves from false systems. Instead the motive is one that is interested in people, in setting people free from absuive beliefs and into God's freedom & unconditional loving acceptance.
I can't always judge who is and is not a "fellow traveler" or based on their doctrinal statements. I can get a good idea, but I'm not in the business of that kind of judging. Doctrinally speaking I clearly didn't appear to be a "fellow traveler" when I was an Adventist missionary! Yet I was, and as I look back it is clear that God was leading me the whole time. Who am I to deny that possibility to anyone else who may be just as "wrong"?
What I do know is that God loves people who are His enemies, and that He longs to give us His heart so that we may intercede for those who are far away from Him. The moment we lose sight of this is the moment we forget that we still need His grace just as much as "they" do. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1915
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 10:16 pm: | |
Someone sent me this excerpt from a sermon by Martin-Lloyd Jones. I love these classic Christian authors:
"I do not understand that mentality in the Christian Church today which says that we must all come together and sink our differences; and that what we believe does not matter. It is a denial of the Book of the Acts of the Apostles, and of the story of the twelve ignorant, untutored and unlettered men who knew whom and what they believed, and who had the power of the Spirit upon them, and who 'turned the world upside-down'. This is surely one of the central messages of the Bible. The great concern of the New Testament Epistles is not about the size of the Church, it is about the purity of the Church. The Apostles never said to the first Christians, 'You are antagonizing people by emphasizing doctrine. Say more about the love of God and less about the wrath of God. They do not even like the Cross, and they cannot abide the story of the resurrection! Drop that talk about the wrath of God and Christ's ethical teaching!' Not so do the Apostles speak!
There is an exclusiveness in the New Testament that is quite amazing. The Apostle Paul writing to the Galatians says, 'Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached, let him be accursed' (Galatians 1:8). 'My Gospel!', says Paul writing to Timothy. He denounces other teachers. So many of these modern preachers are much nicer people than the Apostle Paul! They never say a word against anyone at all, they praise everybody, and they are praised by everybody. They are never 'negative'! They never define what they believe and what they do not believe. They are said to be 'full of love'. I am not misjudging them when I say that that is not the explanation. The explanation is that they do not 'contend for the truth', they are innocent concerning the 'wiles of the devil'. It is not for us to decide what to leave out and what to drop for the sake of unity. My business is to expound this truth, to declare it ó come what may! We must not be interested primarily in numbers, we must be interested in the truth of God. Why are many today denying the glory of the Protestant Reformation? Martin Luther ó one man, standing against the whole Church ó would be dismissed today as 'just an individualist who never cooperates'. But he stood up and said in effect, 'I am right, you are all wrong!"
We need this kind of conviction and passion for truth in the Christian church today. The trumpet has to have a clear and certain sound.
Stan
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Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 195
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 6:26 am: | |
The first time I saw anything of Philip Yancey was when I was visiting the SDA church where I used to be a missionary in Osaka. Unknown to the others at the time I had already left Adventism in heart and spirit, having been captured by the Spirit who opened my eyes to the New Covenant. But in this visit someone brought in a video of Yancey speaking at Avondale College in Australia, and we sat down to watch it.
I was surprised at how politely and gracefully Yancey went for the Adventist jugular yet did so without mentioning a single Adventist doctrine. In essence he said what he wrote in "What's So Amazing About Grace?"---
quote:"For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ," wrote the apostle John. Christians have spent enormous energy over the years debating and decreeing truth; every church defends its particular version. But what about grace? How rare to find a church competing to "out-grace" its rivals.
Grace is Christianity's best gift to the world, a spiritual nova in our midst exerting a force stronger than vengeance, stronger than racism, stronger than hate. Sadly, to a world desperate for this grace the church often presents one more form of ungrace...
In my short life (and shorter life having known God), I've noticed that we can find verses to prove almost every point we can think of, and we have many reasons why we honestly feel it's absolutely necessary to erect walls to distance ourselves from one another and declare one another as being against God. I don't know how in the world Jesus' prayer in John 17 will be fulfilled at the rate we're going:
"May they be brought to complete unity
to let the world know that You sent Me
and have loved them even as You have loved Me."
Of course, we each can just as easily find verses to show that we're keeping His wishes, and that the unity will center around what we believe. But the stark, blunt love Jesus speaks of convicts me, and I know He prayed this for me, too, and not only for others. He wanted me to have His heart, and too often I get distracted by many other things. His love is the most strict and focused thing in the universe. Yet it is distributed in a way that--when I see it in those moments of clarity--makes me fall on my face and suddenly shows me that He is God, and I barely know spat, because His grace is His to distribute, not mine.
I've done more than my share of focusing on things without even stopping to consider God's love for the people I'm talking to or how I can best bless them, touch them, lift them up, and let them know that they're valuable to God, loved by Him and even loved by me.
Bless you, my brother, and my brothers & sisters, in God's awesome grace and His deep, deep love for each and every one of us. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1919
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 4:13 pm: | |
Since I used to attend Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, and considered it overall a good experience with much blessing, I am interested in this article:
http://www.understandthetimes.org/commentary/c48.shtml
Here is a short excerpt from the introduction to the article:
"Since Rick Warrenís best selling Purpose Driven book and other related products were pulled from Calvary Distribution, [1] a number of people have contacted me asking for an explanation. My answer has been quite simple - contact someone at Calvary Distribution and ask them for the answer.
While I do speak at many different Calvary Chapels throughout the USA and around the world, I am not involved in the decisions that the leaders of Calvary Chapel make. Basically, I am a missionary to the world, based in southern California, affiliated with the Calvary Chapel movement. The ministry of Understand The Times is a discernment ministry, and I am dedicated to warning people about current trends within Christianity which lead believers and non believers away from the truth of Godís Word. Other than warning people, there is not much else I can do."
Pastor Chuck Smith has taken a courageous stand against Rick Warren and the Purpose Driven Life movement by ordering that all Purpose Driven material be taken out of Calvary Chapel bookstores.
Chuck Smith is also very concerned about some of what is going on in the emergent church movement. You can read more at the above link.
Stan |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1921
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 6:11 pm: | |
Here is another excerpt from Roger Oakland that I think is interesting and may be somewhat speculative, but I have also wondered about this in the past:
"I also believe that it wonít be very long before Rick Warren and his Purpose Driven theology will join hands with Roman Catholicism so that together they may work toward their common goal of ushering in the ìKingdom of God.î
As long as God gives me breath, I will keep you informed.
Roger Oakland
Does that sound like SDA theology, where they teach that apostate protestantism will join hands with Catholicism?
Stan
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Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 199
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 11:19 pm: | |
Wow, Stan, it does sound just the same.
It kind of reinforces this idea I have (which I haven't fully figured out yet) that there is a paranoia among many Protestant Christians of anything with the word "Catholic"... nevermind if what's written might be totally in harmony with what we believe---it's not about the substance, instead we tend to look at the mouthpiece.
The problem with focusing on people and particular organizations/denominations is that we totally miss the spirit behind false things. The organization's name or belief suddenly becomes a hot potato and we aim to avoid that. Not only do we miss the very real spirit behind things, but we also miss God's heart which cares about people more than labels.
Wow, I just read what Oakland quoted of Rick Warren talking about prophecy----and I agree with Warren! I read an article or two at Christianity Today about Warren and his wife being moved by visiting Rwanda and wanting to help AIDS orphans in Africa.
You know, there's a balance with the kingdom "on earth as it is in heaven"... on one hand, we know that the end is coming and it's going to get uglier before it gets suddenly better. But so many Christians shy from reaching out to help their neighbors. It seems like there are two extremes that things can be carried towards. One, they can look to make the kingdom on earth. Two, they can wait for the kingdom to come. The two needn't be exclusive of each other, but when people argue about them they tend to make them exclusive---either this or that. Call me crazy, but you know, I think if I had to choose one of the extremes, I'd rather choose the one that focuses more on loving our neighbors. But thankfully the extremes are not exclusive. Yet the rhetoric directed against anyone who wants the kingdom "on earth as it is in heaven" is sad sometimes.
Anyway, interesting article, Stan! |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1923
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 1:25 am: | |
Ramone,
There is a blog for Calvary Chapel members as well as ex-CC members, and there was a firestorm both pro and con about Chuck Smith's decision to ban Rick Warren's books from CC bookstores. If interested, you can read the blog article and the counterprotest by Richard Abanes (who recently wrote a book defending Rick Warren) and there are 600 plus comments responding to this article:
http://phoenixpreacher.com/?p=746#comments
Here is Richard Abanes response:
Now, this might be the end of the story, were it not for Richard Abanes, who wrote a book defending Rick Warren and PDL. He posted on a blog in reponse to Oakland's four points, and he said..
" ((1)) Differences in beliefs on eschatology (Warren encourages focuses on establishing Kingdom of God now so that Jesus will return, Smith/CC focuses on the imminent return of Jesus), ***FACT: This statement is incorrect. Warren/Saddleback DOES NOT teach establishing Godís kingdom to bring in Christís return. Warren/Saddleback is pre-mill, pre-trib, standard Southern Baptist eschatology. Warren/Saddleback, however, DOES teach that it is the responsibility of Christians to better the world by loving others, feeding the hungry, caring for the sick, and clothing the nakedóquite biblical, actually.
((2)) Warren has endorsed the Emerging Church movement, Smith has been very outspoken against it,***FACT: Certain ASPECTS of the Emerging Church are supported by Warren, and also certain aspects of it are NOT supported by him. The above statement is simplistic to the point of being misleading and inaccurate. Warren does not support those aspects of the moevement that are tending to stray from biblical soundness, but hopes that in time leaders in it will rise up and lead the movement in the right direction.
((3)) Contemplative Prayer and Mysticism - CC movement has always been based on systematic teaching of bible not experience-based Christianity - Warren has clearly indicated willingness to investigate and even align himself with leaders in these teachings,
***FACT: Again, we have a declaration that is simplistic in the extreme, so much so that it is erroneous. It is not unbibilical to remain quiet before God and contemplate his greatness, as you might do if you are sitting on a beach and gazing upon the ocean, in awe of his creation, or perhaps just siitting quietly before him, not ASKING for anything, just waiting for his presence to fill you with his love, and EXPERIENCE his being near to your heart, touching your soul. That is not occult mysticism. (see my book for more info). Also, it is NOT unbiblical to teach topically, rather than systematically. Jesus himself taught topically.
4) Church Growth Philosophy - Smith does not promote church growth programs - and has stated on numerous occasions that the growth of CC is not by human effort or cleverly designed plans.***FACT: This is absurd. First, any outreach in the community, witnessing trip, or church event is done by way of our human talents (gifts that God gave us to us to useólove God with heart, soul, MIND, and strength). Second, the plans that Warren makes are designed on biblical princiles, and he ALWAYS, as far as I have seen, credits ANY success and growth to GODíS spirit working, and GODíS blessings, not any human inegenuity. (again, see my book for what WARREN himself has said about this issue). I personally went on a Mexico mission trip with Calvary where we showed Raul Riessís life story film in an open field to attract local residents. Was that ìHuman effortî or ìcleverly designed plansî? I must say I doubt seriously if this person is ex-PDC by his/her answers.
Also, as for Roger Oaklandís concerns, I personnaly made myself available thru a mutual friend to Oakland to answer any questions and give him information that he would need to make a clear assesment. Did he EVER contact me? No. I also sought a meeting with Smith through a Calvary Board member I know to show Smith documentation of Warrenís teachings that demonstrated how was wrong about Warren in a number of areas. Did he ever contact me? No. Hunt has even shown a worse side. He actually met with Warren, together with me, and two other individuals. We had lunch for about an hour and he never ONCE asked Warren a single thing about doctrines, his teachings, or voiced ANY concerns to Warren. He simply talked about himself and his new book about Muslims and hoping that Warren could get it to the president. It was at last yearís PDC conference, which Hunt very much enjoyed. He even prayed with me and others, asking God to BLESS Warren and continue to use him to reach so many souls for Christ. His mind had completely changed and he had very few concerns. Then, under pressure, once he got back home, he changed his tune again and jumped back on the anti-Warren bandwagon, apparently to keep pleasing his board, supporters, and keep selling his resources. he also admitted to me that when he did his long series of anti-Warren radio shows with TA McMahon agagainst ìThe Purpose Dirven Lifeî óHe hadnít even read Warrenís book!. I bid you all peace. I have no interest in fighting with anyone or having long drawn out arguments. But I shall close by saying some of the WORST offenders at bearing false witness against Warren on these matters are: Deborah Dombrowski of LIghthouse Trails, Bob DeWaay, Southwest Radio Church, Richard Bennett, James Sundquist, Gary Gilley, Paul Proctor, and Dave Hunt. Their pens, in my personal opinion, are filled with poisonous half-truths, misquotes, unsound reasoning, twisted words of Warren, and what I see as a lack of real Christian love or a desire for truth. Itís sad, really, very sad. Is Warren perfect? No. Does he make mistakes? Yes. Do I agree with everything he has said? No. Is he being used by God and bringing people to the Christ of the Bible for salvation? Yes, with all his imperfections, yes he is. The truth is out there. Donít get caught up in unrighteous hate, jealousy, envy, and religious fanaticism done under the guise of ìcontending for the faith.î
R. Abanes
Well, clearly anytime the topic of Rick Warren comes up, there is a lot of emotion on both sides. And I do find it curious that just now, Calvary Chapel is banning Warren's books, and not a long time ago.
Stan |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 202
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 5:52 am: | |
Wow, Stan. You know, one of the side-affects of learning the truth about the roots & beliefs of Adventism was that I found identity in Jesus alone. I never truly latched onto a denomination, church system or organization after that. I went from membership in and believing that Adventism was the "true church" to seeing the invincible and invisible Church and having a membership in Christ alone. In sight of all the fighting between personalities and organizations, I think the sooner we all find identity in Him alone, the better. |
Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 97
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 6:37 am: | |
Agapetos, your thoughts really resonate with me. I've been attending a Presbyterian church for about 6 months, and at first I was very satisfied. However, after the intial glow wore off, I've begun to pay more attention to pieces of the picture I had ignored before.
Now, I'm feeling less content than at first. I went through the 6-week new members class, and learned a lot from that. However, at the end of the series, when I was given the opportunity to actually sign the page that said I wanted to be a member, I declined. I sensed the Holy Spirit telling me to wait a while. It's sort of like when you're newly divorced, you should be very careful not to get attached again too quickly. There's a lot of emotional baggage to process, and it takes time.
However, I am firmly established in my membership in Christ alone, as you said. I glean the good from each church fellowship or Bible study experience I encounter, as He feeds me and leads me. And because I'm not a member of any one group, I can more easily let the Holy Spirit blow away the chaff of the "fighting between personalities and organizations."
Of all my sources of spiritual influence, this forum is by far the most uplifting, challenging, and comforting. Thanks to all the posters and to the lurkers, too, for sharing your thoughts and your connection to Jesus Christ.
Honestwitness |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4360
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 5:20 pm: | |
HonestWitness, I liked your statement, "I sensed the Holy Spirit telling me to wait a while. It's sort of like when you're newly divorced, you should be very careful not to get attached again too quickly. There's a lot of emotional baggage to process, and it takes time. "
I firmly believe that God knows where He wants to plant us for fellowship and involvement in the Body of Christ. Sometimes we do have to look, visit, and participate for a while without joining. God definitely wants us in fellowship, but sometimes He actually does lead people through a series of congregations before letting us know it's time to "settle".
It's important not to isolate, but it's vital to ask Him to lead us to the place He has prepared for us and to give us clarity to know His will.
Colleen |
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