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| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 117 Registered: 1-2004  |
I was looking at one of the texts used in the quarterly during SS today and noticed something; John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. SDA's have a 1000 year gap between the resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation. They say one is the first resurrection, and the other the second. Orthodox Christians believe we're in the 1000 years right now, and see the general resurrection happening after the 1000 years, with both righteous and wicked being raised and judged then. Here's something interesting from Justin Martyr on the 1000 years; "...there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place." "But tell me, do you really admit that this place, Jerusalem, shall be rebuilt; and do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the patriarchs, and the prophets, both the men of our nation, and other proselytes who joined them before your Christ came? or have you given way, and admitted this in order to have the appearance of worsting us in the controversies? " Then I answered, "I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." Justin held that the living and reigning with Christ during the 1000 years happened on earth but many Christians did not see it that way. I think the alternate view was that "Jerusalem" was the "Jerusalem which is above", mentioned in Paul's writings. There apparently was agreement about the timing of the "1000 years" and resurrection, however. Interesting that Justin spent time in Ephesus where John died... It lends some credibility to his view. ****** I think that this refers to the "1st resurrection"; 25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The above verse is seen to be a description of "the Jerusalem which is above" right now, by the Orthodox. We go there when we worship in the liturgy. Those icons of saints in church? they are seen as "windows into heaven"... it helps us "see" those living and reigning (in the sense of the first resurrection) with Christ. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. ****** And this refers to the second resurrection; John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. ****** It's chronological, and it has support from very early in Christian history. Jeremiah | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4281 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jeremiah, Revelation 20 is the place where John prophesied a 1000 year gap between the resurrection of the righteous, after which they would reign with Christ 1000 years, and the resurrection of the wicked. During this time, John says, Satan is bound in the abyss and cannot deceive the nations for 1000 years. At the end of this time, the Armageddon battle happens. This chapter in Revelation is the clearest insight into this scenario that I know of. I don't believe it discounts the passages you cite above; it just puts more of a specific time frame to them. 1 Thessalonian 4:13-17 tends to support John's Revelation scenario. It separates the resurrection of the rightous and the wicked, but it doesn't say by how much time. Colleen | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 118 Registered: 1-2004 |
Revelation 20 is where half of my references were from, actually. I didn't cite the chapters; sorry. I did some more research, and it appears that Irenaeus has this order; Antichrist, resurrection of the just, 1000 year reign of the just with Christ on earth, general resurrection and judgment, then a graduated future where there are different "levels" of saved... an interesting concept. Irenaeus follows Justin, even quotes him. My explanation of the Orthodox view above may be incorrect. I'll continue to learn, I'm sure. Studying the early Christian views of end times and what Revelation means interests me. Here are a couple paragraphs from Irenaeus about what happens after the general resurrection at the end of Revelation 20; 1. For since there are real men, so must there also be a real establishment (plantationem), that they vanish not away among non-existent things, but progress among those which have an actual existence. For neither is the substance nor the essence of the creation annihilated (for faithful and true is He who has established it), but "the fashion of the world passeth away; "336 that is, those things among which transgression has occurred, since man has grown old in them. And therefore this [present] fashion has been formed temporary, God foreknowing all things; as I have pointed out in the preceding book,337 and have also shown, as far as was possible, the cause of the creation of this world of temporal things. But when this [present] fashion [of things] passes away, and man has been renewed, and flourishes in an incorruptible state, so as to preclude the possibility of becoming old, [then] there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, in which the new man shall remain [continually ], always holding fresh converse with God. And since (or, that) these things shall ever continue without end, Isaiah declares, "For as the new heavens and the new earth which I do make, continue in my sight, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain."338 And as the presbyters say, Then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour339 shall be seen according as they who see Him shall be worthy. 2. [They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, "In My Father's house are many mansions."340 For all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place; even as His Word says, that a share is allotted to all by the Father, according as each person is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch on which the guests shall recline, having been invited to the wedding.341 The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, affirm that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; also that they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father, and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the apostle, "For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."342 For in the times of the kingdom, the righteous man who is upon the earth shall then forget to die. "But when He saith, All things shall be subdued unto Him, it is manifest that He is excepted who did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all."343 Jeremiah |
