| Author |
Message |
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 22
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 9:51 am: |     |
I was raised with the belief the EGW was the "lesser light". I remember being told that Ellen White said herself that if anything she wrote was against the Bible then to disregard what she said. I did read Ellen White, but I don't know if I ever believed her to be inspired. So I guess Advenists will say I was never really an Adventist although I would have died for what I believed. Was anyone else raised with this view of EGW? I had to read her in school some and I know my parents were familiar with her writings, but I never saw them reading any of it. I am thankful that I was raised with this view because when I found error in what she wrote I immediately questioned her instead of the Bible. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4299
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 10:58 am: | |
Yes, U2, I was raised with the same belief about Ellen. As far as her being a "lesser light", that really was an ingenuous way to describe her. While claiming on the one hand that she led people to honor and obey the Bible, in reality they used her to INTERPRET the Bible, developing doctrines that were decidedly unbiblical while using Bible texts to "support" them.
Ellen's interpretations became Adventism's Biblical understanding. They THINK they are obeying the Bible, but they actually have a twisted understanding of what the Bible actually says. One of the most common reactions we hear as people begin to discover the truth is that they aren't sure if certain "factoids" are in the Bible or in EGW!
Colleen |
Doggy
Registered user
Username: Doggy
Post Number: 8
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 2:59 pm: | |
Hi Colleen,
Hannah was very patient after I left Adventism because at first I didn't realize how many little things I thought about the bible were wrong. Looking back it's truly like I was being de-programmed. Even now sometimes I wonder about an assumption I have and I have to see what the bible says to make sure my opinion isn't a holdover from Ellen White.
Colleen, I have a question for you. I was baptized when I was 11 and 13 in the church. When Hannah and I first got together she had a year of school left in Virginia. I left Adventism and my family at that time and moved to Virginia to see if it would work. Hannah and I attended a charismatic church amongst a couple other conservative ones. I still had some Adventist hangups but I thought I was done with it. After we got married and moved to Michigan I decided to re-join the church. Hannah was very upset, of course.
During the few months I called myself an Adventist again I had a deep zeal to be holy. Those few months are actually beautiful to me because it was in them I finally broke free. I had many in depth talks with my pastor and I was re-baptized for the third time in my life in front of the church. Shortly afterward you know the story.
My question is this, do I need to be baptized again in a real christian church? It's been bugging me for awhile. |
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 23
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 3:09 pm: | |
Doggy,
I do the same thing sometimes. Even 7+ years after leaving the SDA church I still learn about small things that are not in the Bible - they were from Ellen White. And I feel really silly for not noticing that thing before. I even took the approach of throwing out all SDA doctrine when I left the church, but some of the Bible stories (EGW version) or concepts of Ellen White were entrenched more than I thought they were. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1871
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 3:46 pm: | |
Here is a rather bizarre vision that someone posted on another forum that was talking about SDA eschatology from vol. 1 of Testimonies:
"That night I dreamed that I was in Battle Creek looking out from the side glass at the door and saw a company marching up to the house, two and two. They looked stern and determined. I knew them well and turned to open the parlor door to receive them, but thought I would look again. The scene was changed. The company now presented the appearance of a Catholic procession. One bore in his hand a cross, another a reed. And as they approached, the one carrying a reed made a circle around the house, saying three times: "This house is proscribed. The goods must be confiscated. They have spoken against our holy order." Terror seized me, and I ran through the house, out of the north door, and found myself in the midst of a company, some of whom I knew, but I dared not speak a word to them for fear of being betrayed. I tried to seek a retired spot where I might weep and pray without meeting eager, inquisitive eyes wherever I turned. I repeated frequently: "If I could only understand this! If they will tell me what I have said or what I have done!"
I wept and prayed much as I saw our goods confiscated. I tried to read sympathy or pity for me in the looks of those around me, and marked the countenances of several whom I thought would speak to me and comfort me if they did not fear that they would be observed by others. I made one attempt to escape from the crowd, but seeing that I was watched, I concealed my intentions. I commenced weeping aloud, and saying: "If they would only tell me what I have done or what I have said!" My husband, who was sleeping in a bed in the same room, heard me weeping aloud and awoke me. My pillow was wet with tears, and a sad depression of spirits was upon me."óTestimonies for the Church, Vol. 1, p. 578.
........................
This must be where SDA eschaatology was born.
Stan |
Lynne
Registered user
Username: Lynne
Post Number: 466
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 4:22 pm: | |
Sounds right Stan. Sounds like where SDA eschatology was born.
And if you don't pass that test, you won't be saved. And of course if you don't keep the Sabbath and/or if you go to church on Sunday and/or if you eat something unclean and/or if you sin in any way, like looking at a pretty woman the wrong way, you sin.
On the plus side, if you don't pass the test (you know you won't), you will only be annihilated. But you don't know what is worse, the beast on earth or the judgment of God. It sounds so hopeless.
Lynne
|
Deadmanwalking
Registered user
Username: Deadmanwalking
Post Number: 22
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 4:39 pm: | |
Stan, as I read the "vision" recounted above, I couldn't help but think of Hebrews 10:34:
". . . and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one."
|
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4305
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 6:21 pm: | |
Doggy, if you were actually baptized into Jesus, there's no need to be rebaptized. If you really weren't showing your commitment to Him, you might want to consider it.
When I was baptized as an Adventist, I actually was quite thoughtful about not only joining the church but actually following Jesus. I actually did have a remarkable experience of literally feeling the presence of the Holy Spirit holding me (I was 10 years old, actually) for about 24 hours or so after my baptism. I knew I was feeling Jesus, and I knew the peace and awe I felt were from Him.
I have not been rebaptized because I have always felt that, although I have since learned what it means to live for and with Him and to have a relationship with Him, I would be negating my very real desire to follow Him and His very real confirmation to me. I look back at my baptism as one of the landmarks of my experience that convince me God was calling me from a young age. Even though I didn't have a clue how to relate to Him, He let me know that His hand was on me.
So, Doggy, I would say only you know for sure whether or not you might want to be rebaptized, because only you know what it would mean to you!
I know others, even here on this forum, who have been rebaptized and have found it to be truly meaningful.
Colleen |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 792
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 6:52 pm: | |
What a contrast between Test., Vol. 1, p. 578 and Hebrews 10:34! Thanks, Richard and Stan, for pointing this out.
Lynne, your concluding paragraph was well stated. Yes, the options for a devout Adventist are very "hopeless."
Dennis Fischer |
Doggy
Registered user
Username: Doggy
Post Number: 9
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 1:39 am: | |
Thank you Colleen. No doubt my final baptism was fully for Christ yet I had some hangup about doing everything right. Just in case.
I want to post an email I just wrote to one of my senior managers who is agnostic and my friend. I just got a transfer to a location much closer to where we live and it's an obvious benefit and blessing to get this without me even really asking. Still, there is sadness between us because we are good friends and we both recognize how much this changes our friendship. I have witnessed to her quite a few times whenever the Spirit gave me the chance. She has been open and willing to ask questions about my faith throughout our friendship. This is a response I should have written a couple weeks ago. I'm staying up far to late but I don't care. Bless you all. Please critique me.
Hi Cathy,
Late of course, I don't have the sense to sleep. I read over that long email I sent you awhile ago and I think I should give a simple answer to one of your questions. Here it is.
"What is the end of the world and death to you? It seems like a big nothingness when you speak of it but then you add heaven or hell into the equation."
For most of my life hell and perfection were drilled into me. I never met a perfect Adventist, so like so many others before me I rejected God as I thought him to be and gave up. I comforted myself in the Adventist belief that hell wasn't eternal, that we would only burn for our own sins then cease to exist. I actually operated my life for many years wanting to love God but willing to accept a quick death in hell. I just didn't see how anyone could ever become perfect, and now I know they can't down here. But perfection isn't what matters. Honesty before God and belief in his complete forgiveness is all he requires. That's it in it's simplicity. Because I know you're not a christian I won't go into spiritual growth after being saved.
Heaven and hell are very difficult places to describe. It is possible, for example to see several different ends for the wicked in hell throughout the old and new testament. As far as I'm concerned I see the basic principle of damnation. One true statement constantly comes out in the bible regarding hell. In hell the damned will know they are damned because of their wickedness, and they will know Jesus Christ is God. Whether it's for a moment or for eternity they will fully see God and what he did for them when he died. They will see that their own wickedness born from selfishness is over. They will see God is everything and they will see they are forever cut off. They will never again enjoy any pleasure no matter how small.
Heaven is also vague. Through scripture we are told it is a place beyond our imagination. There will be streets of gold, trees of life, and all kinds of incredible beings. We are told in John that Jesus is preparing mansions for us and that we will rule with him on the new earth. The new earth will be this one, and everything that is throughout countless universes' and dimensions will be centered here. We will be closer to Christ for all of eternity than any other creature created or to be created in the future. There are many other descriptions of heaven to be found but as a christian I find my greatest peace in a spiritual understanding of heaven. Having believed that Christ has secured eternal life with him for me just because I accept it makes me want to be closer to him everyday. I have experienced his presence. Heaven to me is forever love and praise to God. My greatest joy is to worship him eternally. That will probably make no sense to you but it's ok, I had to say it as it is. If you ever accept Christ, and I hope you do, you'll understand then.
I am so disgusted with my sick, wicked nature. It always seems I take one step forward and ten steps back yet over the course of my life it's obvious he has changed me. Ten years ago I was a very violent almost sociopathic person. I would never brag about the people I hurt but I have to say I hurt alot of people very bad. I was and still could be very good at it. I feel remorse for the many injuries I've caused people. I have cried thinking about my victims because I put myself in their shoes. I am blessed that the evil I handed out so often hasn't been repaid by someone else. God is incredibly merciful. For the rest of my life I will remember people I hurt very badly just for the fun of it. What else can I say about that without details? I should be in prison now for the things I've done. I am not deserving of forgiveness yet I am forgiven by the one who judges. Because of Christs horrible sacrifice I not only gain eternal life in heaven, I also gain a beautiful ind escribable love and peace in my soul.
Heaven to me is summed up in constant praise and adoration to our saviour. Spiritually speaking I don't care about mansions or gold or anything else. I have felt Gods forgiveness, love, and acceptance. It continues to change my life. Who knows what I'll be like ten years from now if I'm even here? What I do know is that I am saved and I have never felt love like Gods' love nor have I ever desired to love like I love God.
The end of the world is still scary to me. I'm scared to an extent about how I'm going to die but I'm not scared about where I'll end up. I'm more scared for my family and my little girl. There are members of my family that aren't saved and I don't want to say good bye forever. I don't want to die and leave my little girl alone down here. There is no one I want to be in heaven with more than my Bethany. I love Hannah to but I already believe she'll be in heaven so she doesn't count, she's a given to me. Beyond Bethany I fear for members of my family lost through Adventism. My sister is a very sick, selfish person. She has no idea who Jesus is and I don't know how to reach her. I blame Adventism for messing up her view of God but I also blame the messed up childhood she had. I fear that her time to choose is running out. She is so unhappy in life and I see how content she could be but I can't make her see it. I can only pray and offer spiritual advice during those few windows a fforded me.
Death and the end of this world simply mean time for the next chapter. I can't say I relish living in the end even though I'm saved. I would prefer a long life and a quiet peaceful death in my sleep but I accept God's will. If this is the end of the world I know Jesus will be with me all the way. There is no doubt in my mind that he is working all things according to his will. I can give many reasons later why I am sure this world is dying if you are interested. Bless you Cathy.
David |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4309
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 11:32 am: | |
David, I cried while I read your letter. What comes through when I read it is your trust in and worship of the Lord Jesus. Your openness and vulnerability only emphasize what Jesus has done.
No matter what Cathy's overt reaction, this email can't help but plant seeds and cause her to ponder deeply.
All I can say is, Praise God for His work in your lifeóand praise Him for the way He brings opportunities to us to speak well of Him and to witness to His work and sovereign compassion.
Thank you for sharing your correspondence, David.
With prayers for Cathy,
Colleen |
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 26
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 1:11 pm: | |
David - what a great opportunity for you to share!
I recently heard from an SDA that I was not able to see Biblical truth because I didn't believe in the Spirit of Prophecy. This was after they were not able to find a text in the Bible to support their belief. How backwards is that? The Bible is interpreted by the light of Ellen White rather than the other way around. |
Doggy
Registered user
Username: Doggy
Post Number: 10
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 11:43 pm: | |
Thanks Colleen and U2. I am trying to gather my thoughts now. I may seem a bit disjointed but I'm just to sad to write well.
I talked to my step mom last night. She gets the email I send to my dad and prints it off for him. I can't wrap my mind around it but for some unknown reason he likes to keep his distance from the internet. She had the email I printed here in my first post and she told me my dad would read it today and call me. He didn't answer when I called twice and he didn't respond to my voice message. That wouldn't be that big of a deal but I talked to my sister today and she talked to him just fine. He told her that I was trying to convince him Adventism is wrong and that wasn't going to happen. She told me he doesn't want to do this.
At first I was quietly angry. My dad has spent years trying to drag me back into Adventism everytime we talk. I can't have any encounter with him without him reminding me I am going to hell because I have turned my back on the truth, and I know better. All these years I have been patient and quiet. I never wanted to argue with him I just wanted him to at the very least respect my right to believe in Jesus according to my own conscience.
He started this whole thing years ago and now that I finally agreed to state the reasons for my faith he's twisted it around as if it's an attack on him.
I don't know what to do or say now. I'm just sad. I hoped he might be able to see the love of God but I think he just sees me as an enemy.
I know it's all in God's hands. I will stand in faith because I know Jesus loves him just as much as me. Good night guys. It's been a difficult day.
Love David |
Doggy
Registered user
Username: Doggy
Post Number: 11
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 12:41 am: | |
Hi again,
I couldn't sleep without sending my dad another email. I hope it softens things. Thank you for your prayers Colleen. Here it is.
I need to clear something with you dad. I want to write a quick letter to you that sums everything up.
I am only prepared to tell you why I left Adventism if you insist on trying to bring me back. I have very strong reasons for leaving Adventism but I would never force them on you. I only wanted to give you my reasons because you often bring up Adventism when we talk. I can't pretend to agree with you nor can I argue so I usually remain silent.
In my heart I would love to show you my reasons for leaving but I would never want you to feel threatened. I love you and all I want is for you to be happy. I wish you could believe I really do have a deep, personal relationship with Christ. There is not one shred of doubt in me that I am accepted by God. While you fear that your salvation is undetermined and mine is lost, I am assured that I am saved and you are to. It makes me sad dad. I wish you could have that peace. I believe God has a very special love for his Adventists because they spend their whole lives desperately seeking his approval never thinking they'll gain it.
We don't have to talk about these things. I love you.
|
Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 558
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 6:39 am: | |
Praying for you David, and for your dad as well! The response you got from him (round about, but still a response) sounds so familiar. So many times when I shared the joy and hope that is now in me with SDA people I cared about it was taken as an attack.
Praying that God will work with you and that the Holy Spirit will fill you and guide you and comfort you!
Blessings,
Mary |
Grace_alone
Registered user
Username: Grace_alone
Post Number: 57
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 7:01 am: | |
David, I just prayed for your comfort, and all the right words in talking to your Dad. I also prayed that God would soften and open up his heart to you, and to Jesus.
Hang in there. Jesus loves you so much...
Leigh Anne |
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 31
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 11:43 am: | |
Praying for you David! I too have experienced that when I share my beliefs with Adventists they feel like I am attacking their beliefs. Praying for a peaceful relationship with your Dad. |
Doggy
Registered user
Username: Doggy
Post Number: 12
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 5:18 pm: | |
Thanks guys,
It means everything to me to have you as part of my family. I know it's a part of my human nature but I am angry at how unfair my dad is being. I have quietly endured years of him preaching at me that I know Ellen White is right, or any bad thing that happens is because I'm not keeping the sabbath, etc. My mom is still sda but she and I have a close relationship because we respect each others right to believe differently. I never try to argue with her and she is the same with me. She and I enjoy our relationship for what it is and agree to disagree. If the Lord wants her to leave adventism he'll make it happen in his time. I'm a target for my dad because I openly practice Christianity outside of adventism. It blows my mind that he is happier with my brother and sister who are both hedonistic, backslidden adventists just because they never renounced adventism. My sister is a known drug addict with no ties to any church but in my dads mind, apparently, she is still closer to Christ than me. The hypocrisy, judmentalism, and double standards of my dad wear on my patience.
My flesh is irritated, offended, sad, and even angry but I am praying for Gods peace and will. I give all this to Jesus. I have complete trust that he knows what he's doing. Perhaps all I can do now is pray and continue growing in Christ. I won't hold on to my negative feelings. My family is in Gods hands and so am I. Bless you all!
David |
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 37
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 5:36 pm: | |
Praying for you to find peace David as you rest in Jesus. |
Doggy
Registered user
Username: Doggy
Post Number: 13
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 6:41 am: | |
Thanks U2,
I was treated very badly and unfairly last night at work and I realized on the way home this is just spiritual warfare. I know better. This thing with my dad, and now my job, isn't about me. I let myself stumble a little bit. I indulged in my own feelings of being wronged and I am wrong for that. I believe in complete honesty before God but I am to turn the other cheek. Thanks for hearing me. I keep growing in Christ. Bless you.
David |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4323
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 11:03 am: | |
David, praying for you and your family. Thanks for sharing this struggle with us. WE can all relate to what you are describing, including the spiritual warfareóand it is God's gift to us all to be able to pray for you and for each other.
Colleen |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 797
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 3:03 pm: | |
David,
As I read your posts on this thread, I am reminded anew of the heartache and pain that Adventism inflicts on people. Collectively, my wife and I have a century of firsthand experience in Adventism. Yet some zealous Adventists still like to tell us that "you and Sylvia never really understood Adventism; otherwise, you would never have left us." Indeed, we need to have "thick skin" to work with our SDA friends and relatives.
It is their unashamed, eager intent to throw a dart right into your heart to paralyze your witness and testimony. Often times when one leaves Adventism, the SDA grapevine (gossip team) will move into action by saying, "Who does he think he is? He thinks he knows more than the whole church. He is just full of pride, and you know what pride did to the devil." In Adventism, the crime of dissent seems to be equal with the unpardonable sin.
Dennis Fischer
(Yahoo Instant Messenger ID: nebraskan2) |
Doggy
Registered user
Username: Doggy
Post Number: 14
Registered: 3-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 6:00 am: | |
Good morning everyone! Happy Lords Day! He He. I need to nap for a couple hours before church but I had some thoughts to share real quick. First is a paradox my family can't resolve. All my life I was taught that christians other than sda's who are living up to all the light that they have will still be saved. So I have stated to my family it's absurd to think I would actually believe in adventism yet choose to live as a new covenant christian knowing that would spell my damnation. Even if, hypotheticaly, adventism is right then I am living up to all the light I have and will be saved anyway. They can't accept that conclusion. hmmm.
Second, I've been reading "My Utmost for His Highest". July 14 brings up a great insight for me. Oswald Chambers comments on Colossians 1:24 this way. "Every time I insist on having my own rights, I hurt the Son of God, while in fact I can prevent Jesus from being hurt if I will take the blow myself. That is the real meaning of "completing what remains of Christ's sufferings..." I took the liberty of quoting the New Living Translation.
I've been thinking about that the last couple days and I realize as a Christian I do hurt God when I become offended. Either I absorb the injustice with grace or bring dishonor to what Christ has claimed he can do in any life.
Bless you all, thank you for your prayers. You all are in mine.
David |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4331
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 9:15 pm: | |
David,
Thank you for sharing that Chambers comment and your meditation on it. I needed to read that right now. It's quite profound.
Colleen |
|
