| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4263 Registered: 12-2003  |
OK, I obtained a teacher's edition of the SS Lesson Quarterly for this quarter, and I've read some in it this afternoon. I have that same old empty, confused, bored feeling I used to get when I read the quarterly. Even the sections marked "Inductive Bible Study" are not inductive Bible study. They list a handful of passages which the author thinks relate to that week's lesson, and follows the list with five "thought questions". A couple of things have emerged from the first three lessons that reveal the truth that nothing has really changed in spite of the attempts to re-word the old doctrine. One is that Goldstein makes no attempt to differentiate between the Great White Throne judgment at His coming in which the wicked are sentenced to hell and the judgment for rewards which believers will experience. While stating that believers are saved by faith and that Christ substitutes for them, he simultaneously says that they will be judged for their worksóand he's not talking about rewards. He uses 1 Peter 4:17: "For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?" This text he uses to help prove that believers will be judged. Yet the context for 1 Peter 4:17 is not to be surprised by suffering for the faith. The passage ends in v 19 with this: "So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themsleves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good." The text Goldstein uses is saying, according the the NIV text notes, that the suffering the church was experiencing was God's judgment intended to purify God's peopleómuch like the discipline described in Hebrews 12. They were to persevere under trial. Goldstein also quotes Romans 3:25-26 and interprets it to mean God's judgment and mercy are being vindicated by judgment. Yet the text is saying God vindicates Himself through the cross of Jesus by demonstrating his justice at leaving the "sins committed beforehand unpunished". On Tuesday's lesson for this week is this quote: "This robe, woven in the loom of heaven, has in it not one thread of human devising. Christ in His humanity wrought out a perfect character, and this character He offers to impart to us." EGW, Christ's Object Lessons, p., 311. There are so many things wrong with that quoteóChrist "wrought out a perfect character"? He was God incarnate. He IMPARTS His character to us? NoóHe IMPUTES righteousness to us. We simply don't develop perfect characters. We are hidden IN CHRIST. Christ's robe of righteousness is a metaphor Ellen seemed fond ofóbut being IN CHRIST is real. It is literally, positionally, where we are when we accept Jesus. We are hidden IN HIMónot saved by wearing a robe (removable) of Christ's righteousness. 2 Cor 5:21 says that we actually BECOME the righteousness of God. Sigh. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1843 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Colleen for calling attention to this quarter's Sabbath School lessons. You can't put the new wine of the gospel into old wineskins. There is just no way to sanitize this doctrine. It looks like Fred Mazzaferri is doing a good job analyzing each day's individual lesson in this quarterly. His analysis can be read or downloaded here: http://www.truthorfables.com/In_Focus.htm It seems that the only way the SDA church can survive is continuing to emphasize the only doctrine which makes Adventism unique. Without 1844, there is no prophetic validity to Ellen White, and there is no reason for the SDA church to exist. Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2640 Registered: 3-2004  |
All I can say is THANK YOU GOD FOR TAKING ME INTO YOUR ARMS AWAY FROM ADVENTISTM. I do not have to be confused or anything negative any more. You are always awesome. Diana | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 436 Registered: 2-2001 |
I was listening to a sermon on Daniel 8 yesterday and the minister went into great details of what happened to the Jews during the time of the occupancy of the temple. He resourced secular history books on some of the detail. The sacrifices of pig on the alter. Making circumcisum (sp?) a capitol offense. The thowing a Jewish mothers and their circumcised children from the city walls to their deaths. Then he spoke of the Macabees and their victory of taking back the temple. This is my question..By the Adventist saying that the 2300 morning and evenings prophecy did not prophecy these events and the fact that they do not teach about these events equate to those who say the Holocost never happened. Or am I taking it too far? | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 25 Registered: 1-2006  |
Violet, I certainly do not want to open a discussion on the 2300 days, but scholars like Ford have suggested that a good question to ask regarding the 2300 is this: What thing (not previously trampled down) began to be trampled down at around (we assume) 457 bc and stopped being trampled down in 1843? Perhaps those evening--mornings sun--ups--sun--downs really are 24 hour periods. Second, does Jesus' blood of the new covenant contaminate the heavenly sanctuary? These things have been discussed here before, and I truly don't want to start a discussion on this, but this is the kingpin on which my human centered theology hinges. No investigative judgment, no standing without Jesus as Mediator means no glory for me. Will I be reduced to accepting salvation by mere faith? I write this in love, and hope the reader will see the irony. Cain brought his own fruit to God. The man wearing his own clothes was put out of the King's feast. I'm thankful to be in Christ. Bob | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 437 Registered: 2-2001 |
Bob, The above post was written on the basis of my understanding that the 2300 mornings and evenings were literal times that sacrifices were to be in the temple. When the Syrian King took over the temple for 3 1/2 years and sacrificed to I belive it was Zeus. Then the Macabees fought and returned the temple back over to the Jews. The reason I can accept this is that it is documented history and not some phantom event of 1844 that no human eye could see. | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 1052 Registered: 7-2004 |
No, Violet, you are not taking it too far. I guess Adventists are historical revisionists based on the fact that they are totally unwilling to see the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy as having already occurred even before the time of Christ. Jesus talked to his disciples about this precise prophecy, then he indicated that at the end of time a similar personality to that of Epiphenes would appear. In no way is Jesus saying that this prophecy was yet to fulfill. At the time of Christ this Macabeean revolt was only about 200 years in their past, and as such was still a raw wound. On CARM there is a SDA poster who seems to think that everything that has happened recently (think 9/11) was as a result of the Illuminati. He makes fun of people such as myself who are willing to see the news on TV as being mostly correct. He was laughing at me for believing that 9/11 had been orchestrated by Bedoins in caves with cell phones. By the way, that was his description, not mine. We are only a little more than 70 years past some of the horrors of the second world war and the near extermination of a whole race of people. Yet there are those who would have us believe that those things never occurred, that the ovens and death camps that have been kept as reminders were set up much like Disneyland was built on some unused piece of real estate. May Heaven keep our eyes open to truth and shield us from conspiracy theory religion. Belva | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 438 Registered: 2-2001 |
What is the Illuminati? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4265 Registered: 12-2003 |
It's a centuries-old secret society of wealthy powerbrokers, apparently of international distribution, and tending to have generational roots in certain families. Names like "Rothschilds" usually come up in discussions about this group. At least that's what the rumors say. Apparently there is some reason to believe such a group exists and that they are "secret" in the way Masons and the occult are secret... Belva, I agree with your conclusion. I really believe I must continually pray for God to keep me grounded in reality and truth and to protect me from deception. What's real, is realóand if we refuse to know what is true, we set ourselves up for destruction. BobóI totally agree with your ironic point! Colleen | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 439 Registered: 2-2001 |
Bob, I went back an reread your post. I don't understand what you are referring to with the time frame. Would you mind expanding or lead me to a link where this has been proviously discussed? Thanks V | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 26 Registered: 1-2006 |
Violet, I think William Miller around 1830 applied prophetic day-year timeframe to the 2300 literal days in this prophecy making it into a 2300 year prophecy. The significance of 1843 to SDAs derives from the date he used to begin the time period, which was 457 bc. I took these dates and this interpretation for granted as an SDA, but they lost significance to me when I read more (see the questions I mentioned above.) SDAs have taught that the cleansing of the sanctuary meant the sanctuary in heaven, which would have been first polluted?? by the transfer of Jesus blood then cleansed (by what, not sure!) People were disappointed when He didn't return in 1843, the time the cleansing was thought to occur. They kept setting new dates and hoping, but ovbiously we're still here. There must be some better interpretation. The cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary in 1843 was to be preceded by repentance. Ellen White, considered a modern day prophet by most SDAs, wrote (about 15 times) that after sin, man was to be given a second chance to keep the law perfectly, that he is now on probation, and that time (before Jesus returns) is running short, and that, well, one better get on with perfection because, she states, we will soon stand before God in an investigative judgment (a process that is thought to have started in 1843) without a Mediator. The investigative judgment it not the same as a reward for Christians; instead, it is taught to be a judgment in which one's very salvation is decided on the basis of our life record of sins and confession, etc. Speaking of believers in Jesus, she says, "some names accepted, some names rejected." This is not what most Christians would be comfortable with! Thus the emphasis on keeping the law perfectly and living perfectly, as is thought to be required especially of the last generation who are living when Jesus returns. This is not the best of news, and many find it simply overwhelming and give up in despair. Corrective theology ought to be apparent to SDA scholars: in the old sanctuary system it was the LAMB (representing Jesus) that was examined carefully to make sure IT was perfect--not the sinner! The sinner had to make continual sacrifices because he was continually sinning, day after day, year after year! The investigative judgment teaching puts the sinner on trial (was he perfect or did he have unconfessed sins) for his very salvation based on his ability to keep the law, live perfectly, etc, without Christ as Mediator. Anyway, it's a human centered teaching and is not widely regarded as good news by Christians who prefer to put their faith in the Lord Jesus. A good question for SDAs is: did Jesus die to give us a second chance to keep the law perfectly, or did He die because we cannot keep the law perfectly? Acts 15:10 makes this clear. I apologize for writing in such strong language. I commend you, Violet, for raising the issue, and hope that you will recieve my response with the kindness with which it is intended. Bob | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1377 Registered: 10-2004  |
Colleen, Indeed, nothing has changed with SDA doctrine, including with the docrine of the Investigative Judgment. Even their own president, Jan Paulsen, assures us of that:
Jeremy | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 441 Registered: 2-2001 |
Bob, You did not offend me in the least. If I am reading your post correctly I agree with what you are saying. I fully understand the despair and depression such teaching of perfection can bring to a person. It was not until I leared of the Macabees and the meaning of Hannaku (SP?) that the 2300 morning and evening prophecy started to sound right. Thats why I was asking if the Adventist were not treating this event as if it did not happen, such as some say the Holucost did not happen. I don't think it is done out of meanness--I think the average SDA has no idea who the Macabees were. If they started to understand this part of well documented history, they might, with the workings of the Holy Spirit, start to question the 2300 day prophacy. I believe most Adventist are good people who want to do what is right, they just have been brainwashed by the system. Again the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1415 Registered: 7-2003 |
I don't know about the average SDA, but when I presented the story of the Macabees to 'my' SDA, he picked it apart piece by piece saying someone wasn't "great" enough to fill title defined in Daniel. Further because they can't prove the Macabee period was exactly 1150 days (2300 morning/evenings), they can't prove the macabees fulfilled the prophecy on that period. They can just guess "close", so he dismissed the whole Macabees situation. Given absolute proof that another scenario works doesn't "exist" in his mind, he's perfectly content to accept what he knows as "truth" from adventism. Some don't see what they don't want to see. And they don't want to see any other potential fulfillment, because they'd have to admit further error within their cozy environment. We can all be that way until God starts to rattle our cage. | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 27 Registered: 1-2006 |
I think my final reference to a good question for SDAs could be misleading, in that it makes the law the focus of Christ's death. This would likely be true from the perspective of the SDA, although there have been are various explanations circulating among SDAs for as long as I can remember. We are sinners, condemned before God, and God died to save US, by His mercy, (Titus 3). I no longer regard rescuing the law as the center of God's effort in salvation. But the question might cause SDAs to reassess their views. Titus 3 (same chapter) makes it clear it's not about the law! Bob | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1857 Registered: 3-2005 |
Here is a link to commentary on the current SS lesson done by Richard Rice. Wow! is all I can say to this: http://www.spectrummagazine.org/onlinecommunity/sabbathschool/060703rice.html Here is an excerpt from the introduction to this piece: "Seventh day Adventists often describe the doctrine of the heavenly sanctuary as their distinctive contribution to Christian theology. It played a central role in the churchís early development. And in recent years, Adventists have turned to the doctrine with greatly renewed interest. This essay explores the contemporary significance of the sanctuary doctrine. Its thesis is that Christís ministry in the heavenly sanctuary concludes with a review of the ultimate impact of Godís saving activity in human history. This review is comprehensive because it occurs at the end of history. Its effect is to demonstrate the true character of Godís sovereignty. And because it surveys the whole sweep of history, this endtime judgment discloses with utter and unprecedented finality that Godís deeds are great and wonderful, that his ways are just and true (cf. Revelation 15:3).1 We can support this interpretation of the heavenly sanctuary by reflecting carefully on three important ideas: (1) there are larger issues involved in the work of salvation than the redemption of individual human beings; (2) the meaning of history is apparent only in light of its end; and (3) the course of human history is genuinely open, undetermined in advance. We will develop each of these themes." Look at that statement number (3) Huh? "the course of human history is genuinely open, undetermined in advance?" How bad is that? This doctrine of open theism is the logical conclusion to where a doctrine of man's free-will will ultimately lead. This is not just happening in Adventism. SDA free-will is no different from the free-will open theists in so-called evangelicalism today. Richard Rice is a hero in this so-called evangelical world, and he always gets the credit for starting this movement. But in non-SDA circles, Rice works directly with Greg Boyd and Clark Pinnock in developing this kind of theology. David Larson, a member of Richard Rice's Sabbath School class told me that this is where John Wesley's doctrines will lead, and that is to open theism. This is why the discussion of free-will that we have had so much on other threads is so important. Any doctrine that subtracts in any way from the total sovereignty of God does lead to some kind of compromise of truth eventually. Stan | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 223 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hey Stan, That is quite a treatise by Richard Rice. It flies in the face of Jan Paulson's 2002 statement regarding continued endorsement of the traditionally held view of the IJ doctrine. It is simply amazing the lengths some will go too, to try and revive a dead dog. Randy | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2650 Registered: 3-2004 |
As I read the link that Jeremy provided above I felt like my head was going in circles. To me, it just does not make sense. Does anyone else feel that way when they read SDA doctrine?? Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4283 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Diana. Absolutely. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1862 Registered: 3-2005 |
The other approach to the IJ in SDA is that of the Graham Maxwell branch that is represented here: http://www.heavenlysanctuary.com/article.php?story=sabbath_scool_lesson_brad There is the article and the responses. If you want to see how the liberal SDA mind works, then check out Tim's responses to Greg and I, especially at the end. He has now officially gone on record to say that Greg and I worship a different God than he does. I actually have to agree with him. Stan |
