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Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 65
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 7:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ric_b, (That's funny my son is Ricky and our last name starts with a B) You're inspiring me to look up the Galatians commentary. I'm amazed how much I'm learning about my own faith and church in this forum of former SDAs!

It just goes to show how important it is for people to really take the time and learn about their history and the reasons for their beliefs. At times I feel so silly when I'm asked a particular question and it should have an easy answer, but I have nothing. In dating my future husband, his parents actually sat me down and explained that I was completely wrong in my current belief system, and if I wanted to continue to date their son I would have to convert. (I was 17, he was 18) Had I known what I know now, I could have either discussed that intelligently and shared some grace with them, or just plain ran out the door! No regrets though. God has always had a plan for me and I feel that it's really starting to unfold...

:-) Leigh Anne
Honestwitness
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Post Number: 86
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Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 9:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just discovered a great online resource for some of Luther's works...www.virtualseminary.net. This site is sort of a clearinghouse that will direct you to other sites. The text below was cut and pasted from their home page.
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The Virtual Seminary is not a "school" and offers no courses, degrees or diplomas. Rather it seeks to make the resources available on the world wide web more accessible for Christian study and scholarship.

The Virtual Seminary is a "Reformed" site in the sense that its manager subscribes to the theology of the Reformed tradition of Calvin, Knox, Edwards, and Spurgeon. Therefore, an effort has been made to comprehensively include Calvinist and related Reformed sites. However, we have also intentionally included many non-Calvinist, indeed even non-Christian, sites where the Virtual Seminary found the information contained on those sites to be useful to pastors, teachers and students. For example, to aide Bible studies, a great many secular historical and archaeological sites and even sites containing ancient pagan literature have been included. For the sake of research and accurately addressing all issues in controversy, even some links to anti-Calvinist sites and arguments have been provided. We have also included many other sites, for example, emphasizing issues such as creationism, prophecy, baptism or ecclesiology, where Christians in the Calvinist tradition have honestly differed. Notwithstanding its own theology, the Virtual Seminary believes in the honest examination and research of all such issues by all Christians, ultimately relying solely upon the Bible, and not human tradition.

Visitors to the Virtual Seminary need always to remember that the linked sites included on the pages of The Virtual Seminary (www.virtualseminary.net) have been carefully selected for their usefulness to the serious Bible and Theology student, but they are web sites owned, operated and controlled by third parties, not by The Virtual Seminary. In addition, although The Virtual Seminary recommends these sites for their usefulness, The Virtual Seminary does not necessarily agree with or recommend the content or views expressed in any individual web site or sites. In fact, some of the sites represent views and include content that The Virtual Seminary vehemently disagrees with. In addition, some of the sites are academic, not Christian, sites and are included for their academic value, not any views or belief systems such sites may represent.. Accordingly, users of The Virtual Seminary should take care and responsibility when reviewing the sites linked to at www.virtualseminary.net and follow the practice of the Church in Berea, where it said of them in the Book of Acts:

"Now the Bereans were of a more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

Riverfonz
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Post Number: 1889
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 9:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rick,
When I was in the searching process for a new church, I would visit the Missouri Synod Lutheran church in our area, but there was so little acknowledgement of Luther in the printed material, and elsewhere, that I was disappointed and decided to try a PCA church instead. But maybe it is good in a way since we know what happens when a church relies too much on its founder, but I would in no way want to compare Ellen White to Luther.

However, one of the most important books while transitioning out of SDA was Luther's commentary on Galatians. That commentary is truly must reading if you want to understand the doctrine of Justification by Faith alone.

But, while Luther was very New Covenant as in those quotes above, we can't forget that he understood the importance of teaching the 10 C's to kids.

However, where the majority of Christianity and apparently some of Lutheranism ignores Luther is on his doctrine of predestination. I am still re-reading Luther's "Bondage of the Will". This is the book Luther considered his most important work, and he considered the doctrine of the bondage of the will to be even more basic to the Reformation than even Justification by Faith alone. JI Packer says that Luther believed that it was this doctrine--that man cannot of his free-will be regenerate, that it is monergistically a work of God, according to His good pleasure--is the pillar on which evangelical theolgy rises or falls. Luther didn't consider this an in-house debate. Right now I am reading the section of his book which explains what Paul meant in Romans 9. This is strong stuff. But if you read Luther in this section, he sounds more like John Calvin than Calvin did. There is no difference between Luther's view of this chapter than Calvin's view. This also seems to be contrary to what Lutherans teach today.

And the other doctrine where it seems Lutherans deviate from Luther is the doctrine of eternal security or Perseverance of the saints. In "Bondage of the Will" Luther is very clear that we can't will ourselves into salvation, and then it would follow that we can't will ourselves out of salvation.

Well, must go back to work now, but I could spend all day talking about Luther--what a great mind, and a heart for God like no other.

Stan
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 66
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 2:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan, you bring up such an interesting point! I think you're right about some of Lutheranism ignoring Luther on his doctrine of predestination. I don't know why that is. In fact, I didn't even know he had a doctrine of predestination. A few years ago Wayne and I stumbled on Romans 8:29 on our own. "predestined" was a word neither one of us had ever noticed in the in all the years of our upbringings. We found that there were several texts, you can't miss them, all over the new testament. So I bought a couple of books on Calvinism and decided that I was a Cavinistic Lutheran. What a riot!

My church is Evangelical Lutheran. Our Pastor is a great guy who has changed the service around from traditional to half and half liturgy/contemporary worship. The church has grown quite a bit from mostly older Norwegians, (My family included, Haha) to a mixture of that with young families. I don't know that I've ever heard a sermon on predestination, but I have heard Perseverance of the Saints all my life.

Our Pastor is easy to talk to, so I think I'll bring that issue up to him. Can you (or anyone)tell me where to find Luther's commentaries on those two topics?

One thing that came out of our little study on predestination - I remember my husband telling me not to bring that up to our SDA family. When I asked why, he said it was because it blew the Investigative Judgement to peices. At the time I didn't know what the heck he was talking about, but I sure do now! Hmmmm, perhaps that's why my Sweetie hasn't made it such a huge issue to go back to the SDA church. (Although he continues to hold on to it as if it's lurking beneath the surface)

:-) Leigh Anne
Lynne
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Post Number: 470
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Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Last weekend on Saturday I had the TBN shows on for my kids. A song about keeping the Sabbath came on. It was children singing about keeping that day holy and resting on it. I was very comfortable with letting my children watch TBN over the years, they never conflicted with my Adventist beliefs.

I thought to myself, it is no wonder many Christians feel Adventists are just Christians like them.

My husband, who is a Christian, but not Adventist, attended the Adventist church with me sometimes and was asked to join the choir because he liked to sing. He was told he didn't have to be an Adventist to do that. I encouraged him also. But some unbiblical and abusive situations many of us know about in the Adventist churches pushed us away from the church. My husband is not uneducated and knows a lot of the bible very well.

Adventists do try to make themselves look like they are any other evangelical church to other Christians. Like if you are Baptist, you can join a Presbyterian church, etc... Not a big deal. So if you are a Baptist, you can join an Adventist church, no big deal... They try to hide their exclusiveness and brainwash members to do the same.

In fact, I think now, the only protection evangelical churches have to protect Christians from the Adventist deceptions (the Adventist hook - the Sabbath day), is to not just teach that we are saved... Romans 10:9-10, and leave out the following from the 101 bible studies - 2 Corinthians 3:7-18, Romans 10:4, Galatians 3:23-25, etc.

It has taken me a while to see this, but it really is very important basic knowledge that all Christians should have as many have said in this forum.

==================================================================================================
Matthew 5:17

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
It is true that Christ did not come to destroy or to abolish the law or the Prophets. Every jot and tittle or last letter of the law is still in effect, but Jesus makes it very clear that what He came to do, is to FULFILL them.

Fulfill: ful.fil', v.i.-fulfilled, fulfilling. [a compound of full and fill; O.E. fullfyllan.]
(1) To accomplish or to carry into effect, as a Prophecy or a Promise; (2) to meet or satisfy the requirements; (3) to bring to a finish or completion; (4) to bring the conditions of a law to realization; (5)to bring to a consummation.
-ful.fil.er, n.--ful.fill.ment, ful.fil.ment, An act of fulfilling; condition of being accomplished.

By fulfilling the law Christ satisfied it's requirements in our place. In other words, the 'required' obedience is accomplished in Him. Therefore, in Christ do we keep all the law faithfully, and cannot be accused. In this way, we are no longer judged by any of the everlasting laws, for we are under the Grace of God. The law doesn't condemn us.

Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1894
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 5:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lynne,
TBN believes almost everyone is a Christian, even if they don't believe in the Trinity--Trinity Broadcasting??? So, it is well known that Paul and jan Crouch are very sympathetic to SDAs.

Leigh Anne,
Ask your pastor if he has ever read Martin Luther's "Bondage of the Will"? The edition to buy if you are interested is the one published by Fleming Revell and translated by J.I. Packer. Even if you read nothing more than the forward by Packer (as Luther's philosophical and scriptural arguments do get heavy, but it is worthwhile reading--his mind was so sharp, and his sarcastic wit make this book well worth reading) then just from Packer's intro, you will realize how important this issue was to the true Reformation doctrine. But in that work, he affirms our total inability to come to God on our own, and the perseverance (not just preservation as most Lutherans now teach, with the slight possibility of losing your salvation) of the saints.

Stan
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 67
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 5:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Stan,

Thanks for the info. I will certainly ask my pastor about it, and I would hope he has read it! It's funny that you should mention J.I. Packer. I just read a forward by him online in the Galatians Commentary.

I actually learned a lot about perseverance of the saints from a Baptist minister who was formerly a high placed Jehovah's Witness. He was very clear about not losing your salvation. His name is Peter Barnes and has written several books on JW's, in addition to having a great ministry for helping people out of cults. (That was a side note!)

Lynne, I really like what you wrote about Evangelicals and SDA's. You're right, the SDA's have been flying under the radar for way too long! I copied what you wrote and will paste it in my "study" folder. That was a gem!

Thanks Friends, Leigh Anne
Ric_b
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Username: Ric_b

Post Number: 579
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 6:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is the LCMS description of the doctrine of election.
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=576

But it is not a doctrine that I hear much discussion of within Lutheranism.
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 69
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 7:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Ric_b,

I added that to my favorites. Nice site! This is a doctrine that I've been interested (and believed in) for years, but you're right, I rarely hear about it at my Lutheran Church. Maybe I just wasn't there that day?

hehe!
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1901
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 9:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Rick for posting that. Here is a short excerpt that is very clear:

35. By the election of grace we mean this truth, that all those who by the grace of God alone, for Christ's sake, through the means of grace, are brought to faith, are justified, sanctified, and preserved in faith here in time, that all these have already from eternity been endowed by God with faith, justification, sanctification, and preservation in faith, and this for the same reason, namely, by grace alone, for Christ's sake, and by way of the means of grace. That this is the doctrine of the Holy Scripture is evident from Eph. 1:3-7; 2 Thess. 2:13, 14; Acts 13:48; Rom. 8:28-30; 2 Tim. 1:9; Matt. 24:22-24 (cp. Form. of Conc. Triglot, p. 1065, Paragraphs 5, 8, 23; M., p. 705).

36. Accordingly we reject as an anti-Scriptural error the doctrine that not alone the grace of God and the merit of Christ are the cause of the election of grace, but that God has, in addition, found or regarded something good in us which prompted or caused Him to elect us, this being variously designated as "good works," "right conduct," "proper self-determination," "refraining from willful resistance," etc. Nor does Holy Scripture know of an election "by foreseen faith," "in view of faith," as though the faith of the elect were to be placed before their election; but according to Scripture the faith which the elect have in time belongs to the spiritual blessings with which God has endowed them by His eternal election. For Scripture teaches Acts 13:48: "And as many as were ordained unto eternal life believed." Our Lutheran Confession also testifies (Triglot, p. 1065, Paragraph 8; M. p. 705): "The eternal election of God however, not only foresees and foreknows the salvation of the elect, but is also, from the gracious will and pleasure of God in Christ Jesus, a cause which procures, works, helps, and promotes our salvation and what pertains thereto; and upon this our salvation is so founded that the gates of hell cannot prevail against it, Matt. 16:18, as is written John 10:28: `Neither shall any man pluck My sheep out of My hand'; and again, Acts 13:48: `And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.."'

This doctrine is played down even in some Reformed circles today, It is just not popular. As Michael Horton says in his book, 'if you want a quick way to clear out a room full of evangelicals, then just announce that you are going to be speaking about election and pre-destination'.

It was just this discussion by Jesus in John 6, where Jesus taught this doctrine clearly, and out of the 5000 people who started to hear this sermon, only the twelve remained. So teaching these doctrines will never be a way to ensure a good church growth strategy.

Stan
Agapetos
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Post Number: 189
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 6:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

(Don't forget that Jesus also upset them in that 'sermon' by saying, "the work God requires is this: to believe in the One He has sent", "I am the bread which came down from heaven", and "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you"... i.e., there's plenty of offense to go around there, the particular running offense being His repeated theme of how He Himself is life from God.)
Agapetos
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Post Number: 191
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Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 7:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

About teaching the 10 Commandments to children, and whether or not to teach them the 4th...

You know, U2bsda made a point about memorizing these things when we were little, and I need to echo that. When I was little we had memory verses but I never met God until I was 21. The most profound realization for me was that I learned "the Ten Commandments" long before I ever learned that "God is love".

Yes, we sang "Jesus loves me", but it was kind of muted by the Law. There was even a verse that said,

"Jesus loves me when I'm good,
When I do the things I should
;
Jesus loves me when I'm bad,
Even though it makes Him sad."

From an early age I learned that obedience was the thing, and I don't want to "make Jesus sad", so I'd better be good, you know! I remember more than one pastor-in-training at LSU giving me the same reasoning when talking about the Sabbath---that keeping it makes Him happy.

I don't have kids yet, and I don't know how it's going to work someday. But somehow I pray that we'll soak them in God's presence so that they come to know Him first before anything else. Remember that movie "The Mask of Zorro" with Antonio Banderas and Anthony Hopkins? Hopkins used to hang a certain flower above his daughter's crib and speak to her. Then Hopkins was captured and separated from his daughter, who was taken away and raised by his enemy. When she returned as an adult, she recognized the smell of the flower and she felt comforted when she heard her real father's voice. I pray that when we have children someday, I pray that it will be something like this.
U2bsda
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Post Number: 62
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Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 8:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My child will be starting homeschooling soon and I will have him start memorizing scripture. But he will be memorizing scripture that does not point out sin, but scripture that talks about who we are now in Christ. But memorization without application is shallow. Teaching will accompany any memorization.
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1911
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Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 9:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A child or any unbeliever can only come to faith by becoming aware that he is a sinner, and that means also memorizing scripture that points out to him that he is a sinner. An unbeliever is not now in Christ--they must be made aware of their sin.

Stan
U2bsda
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Post Number: 64
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Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 10:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan,

Yes, an unbeliever is not in Christ. My child is not an unbeliever though.
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 70
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 10:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan and Agapetos, I have no idea of why more churches (especially Lutheran!) don't teach election because there are so many scriptures on the subject. I guess people are hung up on "free will". I don't believe election is the enemy of free will. It is the enemy of IJ tho!

U2bsda, You're absolutely right! Memorization without application is shallow. That's true for everything, but how much more in raising your kids up in Christ?!

Deadmanwalking
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Username: Deadmanwalking

Post Number: 30
Registered: 4-2006


Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 1:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The Bible reveals God as absolutely holy. The angels who continually surround Him cry out, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty." ... Our Christian culture has weakened our understanding of the holiness of God by introducing too soon the idea of grace. We now talk about grace in a way that changes our view of God from holy to paternal, from justifiably enraged to strict but understanding.... He is a bit more flexible, more tolerant, still insistent that we measure up to at least some of His standards, but gracious when we don't...God means for us to obey His rules...but if we don't (and no one does, or course, not completely), He's really quite understanding. That's our view of grace. It's what Dietrich Bonhoeffer calls cheap grace. It develops when we talk about grace before we tremble at God's holiness."

--Larry Crabb, "Shattered Dreams"

"We...have gathered like the eagles around the carcass of cheap grace, and there we have drunk of the poison which has killed the life of following Christ."

--Dietrich Bonhoeffer,"The Cost of Discipleship"
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

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Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard, thank you for the Larry Crabb quote. Please don't get me wrong; I'm not hearing anyone here say we shouldn't teach people they are inherently sinners. I appreciate the Larry Crabb quote, though, because I have become more and more aware that a lot of "Christians" don't see this fact as necessary.

Among the Adventists in the area where we live there is a marked lack of emphasis on the fact of our innate deparvity or on the need for repentance. Even among the more historic Adventists, while there is the declaration that all are sinners, the antidote seems to be to get a grip and behave yourselfóand oh, yesóyou have to accept Jesus, too.

Unless we recognize the seriousness of being born "in Adam", we really don't seem to understand the necessity of becoming "in Christ".

Personally, I find compelling NT passages that help make this point clear: 1 Cor 15:20-23; Romans 5:12-14; Ephesians 2:1-3, etc.

Colleen
Agapetos
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Post Number: 192
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Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 7:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I suppose a question to ask is how the Gentile churches were taught in the days of the apostles. I don't think that the apostles would have had them memorize the Ten Commandments---which are "the words of the [old] covenant".

Lots of Christians talk about the lack of true repentance and the lack of knowledge of sin---it's almost a gospel for many zealous Christians. But I don't know. Somehow, I remember that Jesus said, "If I am lifted up, I will drawn all men to Myself." Somehow when we lift Him up, when we look at what He has done for us, we know our sin and our salvation.

I suppose a lot of this is born of the way my own relationship with God came about... like the song says, "'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved." It was His grace (Him) that really broke through to me and raised me up. Many Christians say that you can't know you're saved until you know you're truly lost, and then they urge you to contemplate hell. I can't really relate to that, and I know that by saying that many would question my relationship with God. But then there are things like the Spirit's conviction which, if we read in context, clearly show us that we can indeed realize the whole magnitude of these things in Christ and what He's done for us.

Anyway, I think an alternative to using the 10C which would be just as easy would be to use texts from the New Testament, for example, Ephesians 5:32-- "Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you."

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