| Author | Message | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 89 Registered: 4-2006  |
Just read this issue of Lamplighter: http://www.sdaoutreach.org/portals/0/articles/Lamplighter%20July-Aug%202006.pdf I knew pretty much the content of the first part, but the second part was realy interesting, lots of stuff about SDA that I did not know about. Have fun! | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 36 Registered: 1-2006  |
Mwh Thank you for the good resource! Bob | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 55 Registered: 6-2006  |
Mwh, That was really interesting. The first article was great, and I'm so not a reader! Thanks for sharing. I really hate having to look at EGW's ugly mug. YUCK!  Leigh Anne | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 446 Registered: 2-2001 |
I compared my grandmother's SDA hymnal with my mother's and the words in Holy Holy Holy were changed. There must of been a period of transition because I always learned it blessed Trinity. I graduated HS in 1984. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 556 Registered: 8-2004  |
Mwh, Thanks for sharing that link with us. It is a good read! Mary | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1879 Registered: 3-2005 |
Has anyone ever heard of Ron Carlson, the foremost cult expert quoted at the end of that article? His statement is this: "SDAs official position is that if you don't worship on Saturday, you are not a Christian....therefore SDA is a false cult." That is news to me, because I have never seen them officially say that in any current literature. The above article did acknowledge that SDA is orthodox on the deity of Christ and the Trinity, but clearly did disagree with Walter Martin on his conclusions. Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4317 Registered: 12-2003  |
Wow, Mwhóthat is so good! Just FYIóAdventists really are reorienting themselves and indoctrinating their young with the church traditions. A member of this forum sent me her 2nd-grade granddaughter's Bible workbook from this past year. The first part of the book's pages had been torn out, but the end of the book was still there. This is the official SDA curriculum. It has workbook pages dedicated to teaching about Ellen White, Joseph Bates, J.N. Andrews and his missionary background, etc. It even had several pages dedicated to the Biblical commands to do good, and it featured ADRA and its humanitarian concerns. Richard and I were so struck by the matter-of-fact way these things are taughtóalways supplemented with Bible texts. It is, without doubt, brainwashing. Our sons did not have this kind of denominational emphasis and SDA cultural "heritage" taught to them when they were in elementary school in the late 80s and early 90s. There is a definite return to entrenching the young into the SDA culture. Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 794 Registered: 4-2000  |
Stan, Seventh-day Adventists strongly teach that the Jewish Sabbath is the "final test" and the "seal of God." Based on this teaching alone, non-Sabbatarians cannot be considered Christians (when EGW calls Sunday services as "popish"). In fact, Ellen White said (quoting from memory here) that non-Adventists (nominal churches) are "worse than the heathen, but this we are not to tell them." Dennis Fischer | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2663 Registered: 3-2004  |
Dennis, somewhere in my brain a memory comes up of that quote. Must have heard it somewhere in school or church. Diana | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1880 Registered: 3-2005 |
Dennis, My only point is that it is not accurate to say SDAs officially teach that "you are not a Christian if you worship on Saturday." I am not denying what they say the final test will be, but it is not now a test, even according to some Ellen statements. Mark Martin put that article out on his website, which is fair enough, but, the publisher of that article Dr. David Reagan, wrote 11 pages analyzing Seventh-day Adventism, and discussing his reasons why he believes SDA is a cult. I believe overall it was a pretty good article, and did acknowledge that SDA is orthodox on the Trinity, and who Christ is. But at the end of the article, he quotes a definitive statement from a "foremost cult expert", Ron Carlson, to get the final verdict on whether SDA is a cult, and the statement Dr. Reagan quotes from Ron Carlson is a statement from an email correspondence where Carlson says "that SDAs officially believe that if you don't worship on Saturday, you are not a Christian... and therefore SDA is a false cult". So, if Carlson believes this about SDA, then why doesn't he say so on his official website www.roncarlson.com Maybe someone can find it. Carlson has also published a book on cults, and as far as I know, SDA is not listed in his book. I have heard a lot of things that people supposedly say about SDA either on emails or verbally off the record about this. But very few, if any have published any books that are currently in print saying officially that SDA is just like JWs or LDS. Again, I feel in the curious position of trying to defend a group, who distorts the Christian faith, and has a false doctrine as the reason for its existence. But, still credibility is my only concern. Stan | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 30 Registered: 11-2004 |
Quote: In fact, Ellen White said (quoting from memory here) that non-Adventists (nominal churches) are "worse than the heathen, but this we are not to tell them." I heard that from my family! It would be better to be a non Christian than in one of the Babylon churches. | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 557 Registered: 8-2004 |
SDAs do many things 'unofficially' does that mean 'the church' doesn't do them? Many things are in the 'sayings' instead of the 'writings', does that mean they are not taught? To see if Ron Carlson really made the statement is fair. At the same time, whether he said it or someone else said it, SDAs do have the idea that rejecting the 'Sabbath truth' (the testing truth for our time, as they call it) is basically asking to be lost, or is evidence that you already are lost. Some SDAs I grew up around questioned that belief, and others clung to it, but it is a common belief among SDAs (not just members of the SDARM either). Mary | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 56 Registered: 6-2006 |
When I first started dating my now husband, his mom proudly announced to me that Adventists rarely leave the church, and if they do leave, they stop going to church altogether. She went on to say that all Adventists believe that. Isn't that a form of idolatry? Isn't that putting the church ahead of Christ? To stop worshipping Christ altogether because of a day? I just don't get it... | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 38 Registered: 1-2006 |
Although I don't have the magazine with me as I write this (and I think that the Firm Foundation magazine publishers have separated from the SDA church in favor of more historic, hardline adventism) there is a quote on the cover of one of their magazines that says something like ~ "only those who keep the (seventh day) sabbath now will keep it keep it with God in heaven." A pretty strong statement! I guess they could be considered an offshoot of adventism in that they also use Ellen White as an authority in formulating doctrine. There seem to be various factions within Adventism, and I believe that the midwest is generally far more conservative than the west. Interestingly, Garrison Keillor (who writes about small town life in central Minnesota) mentions various aspects of the extremely legalistic attitudes of other denominations in his live radio Prarie Home Companion monologues. Hearing him years ago was the first time I clearly recognized the extent to which other denominations also struggle with the same frustrations and legalism with which we are familiar. Bob | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1881 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hey Bob, I love Garrison Keillor! The stories of Lake Woebegone are classic back in Minnesota. But Keillor grew up in legalistic Lutheranism. If you ever listen to the White Horse Inn www.whitehorseinn.org you can either listen on KKLA 99.5 FM on Sunday nights at 9 PM or listen at your leisure on the internet, then Rod Rosenbladt, the Lutheran representative on that show talks about Lutheran pietism and legalism. And he is solidly Lutheran still. Legalism afflicts every denomination. But you mention "Our Firm Foundation" which is truly a cult and an offshoot of SDA. Yes, it is their official position that anyone who does not worship on Saturday is lost. That would be the view of SDARM that Mary was a part of. But, I would challenge anyone to come up with an official statement in mainstream SDA that would back up the claims of Ron Carlson, this "foremost cult expert" who was featured on Mark Martin's web site. When and if you do cult apologetics, it is very important to be accurate. Stan | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 467 Registered: 10-2005 |
I wasn't raised Adventist. But when I started attending the Adventist church and became involved, I was given literature on the founders to read. I also knew that to not keep the Sabbath, once I knew the truth about it, was to sin. When my daughter started attending Sabbath school, the Sabbath and it's sacredness was very much taught to her in the classes. On the Sabbath, there were many times I would feel guilty and knew it was a sin for me to ... buy something, dabble in some work, drink coffee... I never forgot or overlooked the Sabbath... God forbid, I never did. I was also taught, if other Christians know the Sabbath truth and reject it, that yes, they are worse than non-Christians. I've been married to a Christian for many years who does not believe in the Sabbath day, and of course, at times it was a bit frustrating for me that "the truth" would not sink into his head. I often felt he was to blame for my not keeping the Sabbath as I thought I needed to. And then at times I was relieved being married to him because he didn't judge me when I didn't keep the Sabbath. Looking back, I'm now so grateful that Christ instead of the Sabbath day presently fills my heart. Christ is so much more "fullfilling and constant" than the Sabbath day was. Though I had a relationship with God when I was an Adventist. I know now I was short of substance, sustenance and real peace. | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 39 Registered: 1-2006 |
Stan, I think many SDAs, if backed into a corner theologically, would simply say that they don't believe that part of whatever issue is being discussed. Perhaps they would say that they "reject being labeled" or that they don't believe everything EGW wrote. I agree, accuracy is important. I am not boasting in saying this, but I remained a member of the SDA church for almost 10 years after I clearly knew that I was no longer an SDA, partly out of loyalty and my desire to not cause pain to loved ones, and also to be sure that I wasn't leaving over issues that some have labeled "folk adventism." In other words, I wanted to remain a member if I could possibly work out a satisfactory understanding on some theological issues. Obviously, I found it impossible, realized how much I wanted to live honestly and openly before God and family and friends, and that I would never be at peace pretending to believe things which the Holy Spirit had convicted me were not true. I still find it difficult to classify or categorize adventism simply because I find the definitions a bit slippery, and I am reluctant to openly call them either deceived or dishonest. I find it amazing now that some can believe as they do and still profess to be at peace. I was never at peace, and the issue that led me out would ultimately have also led me out of many other churches which similarly emphasize our response to Jesus. I realized two things before I left adventism: First, that there were a lot of other churches with strong currents of human centered (think pride) theology, and that I would not be joining any of those. Second, (I am embarassed to say this) I questioned my interest in living eternally with a group of people who got to heaven (like me, presumably) because of their human centered theology. Again, think pride. I found the issue downright depressing and realized that my beliefs were far, far, from what I hoped for as a Christian. I have a lot to learn and praise God that He didn't give me peace before I gave up all human centered effort. We see through a glass darkly, eh? Bob | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 560 Registered: 8-2004 |
Found here, on the "Official Ellen G. White Website", is a devotional on the Seal of God and the Mark of the Beast.
The ideas expressed here were used when explaining the Mark of the Beast to me, along with studies similar to this one by Mark Findley. In my understanding, since Ellen G. White continues to be accepted as "the Lord's messenger," and as her "writings" are considered a "continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction" as affirmed in the SDA churchís official "Fundamental Beliefs listing, under point 18, then these quotes must be taken as articulating what the church believes:
EGW commented on that quote in the ësupplimentí in the back of Early Writings:
When this was explained to my young inquiring mind, it was pointed out that, while it seemed to be clear that 'no one has yet received the mark of the beast', since the decree had not gone forth, it was still entirely possible to be lost right now if you've had the 'full light of truth' and rejected it. As is noted in the Early Writings pg. 33 statement the 'holy sabbath is, and will be, the separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers". Between who? Between SDAs and other Christians? No. Between SDAs and unbelievers. Is it possible for SDAs to call non-SDAs fellow Christians without being deceitful? Of course! They just have to assume that those other "Christians" have not yet "understood and rejected" the Sabbath truth. I recall often being told, when asking about non-Adventists who were 'on fire' for Jesus: "Ah yes, they do love Jesus, yes they're Christians, but they haven't 'come up on all the light' yet." "But we told them! And they have that tract!" "Yes, well, maybe the Holy Spirit hasn't gotten around to that point with them yet. If they're really Christian, they'll come around when it's time." The Reform Movement, so far as I understand it, wholeheartedly agrees with this idea, hence the fear some of it's members have in 'sharing the light' with others. They don't want to share 'the Sabbath' with someone and be the cause of their loss. But the idea itself is straightforwardly from the SDA church, not just its offshoots. Blessings, Mary | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1882 Registered: 3-2005 |
Bob and Mary, I agree wholeheartedly with what you presented above. Again, I know practically speaking, and from what I know about many main-stream SDAs, they would not label other Christians who worship on Sunday as non-Christians, and I don't think you would find an official SDA statement now saying what Mr. Carlson (who claims Walter Martin as his mentor--Walter was also my mentor) said on an email communication. Even Ellen White said that there are many genuine Christians in other denominations, and even Catholicism, and they have not now received the mark of the beast. Southern California Adventism would reject out of hand this mark of the beast talk. Otherwise, they wouldn't invite Christians such as Lee Strobel to speak in their churches. All I am saying is this. Yes, let's have an honest dialogue about Adventism I just wish those who honestly believe that SDA is just like JW and LDS would come out in books that are sold in book stores, and officially proclaim it to the world. Instead, even former SDA pastors will say things privately, or on emails, but will not come out in print. I have seen all different sides of SDA that are all over the map. So difficult to classify, because of this. But I doubt mainstream evangelicalism will ever come out and definitely call Adventism a false gospel or cult, as mainstream evangelicals don't even know what true Biblical Christianity is right now, as evidenced in their endorsements of "Oneness Pentecostals" who are even more confused than SDAs, and say nothing of the Pentecostal's "Health and Wealth" gospel. Stan | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1398 Registered: 10-2004  |
Stan, Here is the actual quote from Ron Carlson:
That is a bit different than the way it was quoted above. Yes, it is important for the scholars to try to be as accurate as they can. But I know that other groups (such as LDS, JWs, etc.) do not get the benefit of always having every detail perfectly described by the cult experts--so why should we expect their description of SDA to be the exception? The gist of it/main point is accurate. They at least teach that those who have known about the Sabbath and do not keep it and in the future everyone who does not keep it, are lost. They endorse EGW's writings--that is an official position. Therefore, EGW's statements that non-Sabbath keepers are not Christians is official SDA teaching. Carlson's statement may not have been 100% totally accurate in every specific detail. But I don't know if we can even say that. It's difficult to accurately describe SDA beliefs since they use Christian terms differently than Christians do. According to SDA teaching, those who have not had the light of the Sabbath presented to them may be called "Christians"--but what are these people they call "Christians"? Are they saved and on their way to heaven? No, of course they wouldn't call them "saved" since no one is saved yet. In fact, since if they make no changes in the future (Sabbath) they will be lost, then that means that they are on a path headed towards hell currently. They are not "lost eternally" yet, but if they don't make a change (Sabbath) then they will be in the future. Unless they die before then. So then, according to SDA doctrine they are on their way to hell if they keep living, but on their way to heaven if they die. Well, that's about as clear as mud. How can we fault Carlson for only giving the main gist of it? Who cares if right now it is only those who know the truth but don't keep Sabbath and in the future all those who worship on Sunday, that are non-Christians? In my opinion that is nit-picking. Either way, it is still cultic and is the same as other exclusivist groups--and is still a salvation by works false gospel. Carlson is absolutely correct on this. He says Dr. Walter Martin was his "mentor and dear friend." He is following what Martin said in the quote that was quoted in that article. As for Carlson's website, he does sell the Spirit Behind the Church video on his website. The truth is that SDA is not orthodox on the Trinity and who Christ is. Not at all. Anyone wanting to learn more about this can check out Elmer Wiebe's book, WHO is the Adventist Jesus?. Speaking of accuracy, I don't know if it is accurate to say that Ron Carlson was "featured" on Mark Martin's web site. Mark put the magazine issue on his site, and within that issue there is a short quote from Carlson. Notice also that Carlson was not talking about what some SDAs believe. He was talking about what their "official position" is. Mary, Thanks for that link to Mark Finley's study. I found the following quote to be amazing:
So making the decision to accept Christ's sacrifice on the Cross for your sins is not enough to save you (in Christian terms, make you a "Christian")! You have to make a decision to follow the Sabbath also, or else you are a non-Christian. WOW! And notice that instead of "decision night" being a decision to trust Jesus' blood to save you, it is instead a decision to make a commitment to keep the seventh-day Sabbath to save yourself!! This is not Christian in any sense of the word! Jeremy |
