| Author |
Message |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 186
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 1:24 am: |     |
Stan---
I don't know how you're getting the idea that I'm willing to accept any wind of doctrine as truth. Let me say it this way: God is protecting me---He's my filter. Please understand that I don't throw out Scriptures by saying this, but ultimately, it's God that keeps me safe. My parents (still Adventist) and my former mission director also see "dangerous trends" in my beliefs, because they don't know that God is willing to teach you Himself and keep you safe and saved.
As an Adventist I was raised in a paranoid environment, constantly on the lookout for "false" things and looking for deceptions rather than looking for Jesus. We sounded alarm after alarm, "beware" after "beware", because we looked at correct knowledge (i.e., correct doctrine) as if it was the thing that was going to save us. We approached salvation and the end of time as if it was an SAT or ACT test examination.
Now I've fallen into the arms of the living God. He's helped me study the Scripture, and I've learned that Martin Luther's quote is true ("Where the Spirit does not open the Scripture, the Scripture is not understood, though it is read"). I don't have to "push" anymore.
I noticed that when people prophesy in the flesh, they "push" through a natural tiredness that comes from doing such things. God usually gives us a natural sense of weariness when we strive without Him. And that striving is meant to lead us to Him, to lead us to dropping our works and resting in Him. (See Isaiah 57:10)
But, you know, the very same thing is possible with studying Scripture! In fact, I knew it with studying Scripture long before I witnessed it with prophesying. People often go to the Scriptures and study without God. It becomes academic instead of relational. When I did this, I kept "pushing" in order to arrive at some "truth"... and often I felt I was nearly there, too! Like if I pushed just a little harder, studied a little harder, then I'd find it. Can I coin a new term? I was "studying Scripture in the flesh" instead of with the Spirit.
I was studying without resting in Him. I wasn't trusting Him to guide me into all truth---instead I was studying to learn all truth. Nothing wrong with studying! But after I've come to know that my salvation is in His hands more than it is in mine, I need to rest in Him and trust Him for understanding and revelation.
I know we don't want to get fooled again. But that the same reason that we intently studied Adventist beliefs and teachings! We wanted to guard ourselves in the end times from being deceived by non-Adventists. Now that we have left the fear of those days behind, should we approach the real truth the same way? I don't think so. And we don't need to be afraid of getting fooled---yes, we don't want to be fooled, but we need to put our security in God's hands more than in our abilities.
*****
As for prophecy, if there were no more need for it then we wouldn't have use for 1st Corinthians 14 and we would need to overlook the times that prophets appeared in the book of Acts, as well as Paul talking to Timothy about the prophecies that were made about him. But in the end, just ask God about "what more there is to say."
We can take a clue from the watershed passage, "The spirit (essence) of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus". All prophecy that came before Christ pointed to Him, and all prophecy that comes after Him also is to point to Him.
I'm not talking about prophecy adding to the canon of Scripture. Read the above reasons and the link again. New Covenant prophecy is different than Old Covenant prophecy. We're not looking for another Moses.
I think it sounds like you're afraid of U2bsda or myself or anyone else becoming a disciple of Benny Hinn or someone else. Yet if you read what we've written, we don't agree with Hinn, but we do allow that God still prophesies through people. But it sounds like you're afraid that the moment we admit anyone has prophesied, that we then open ourselves up to following that person as if he/she is another Moses.
I'd suggest reading through the places in the New Testament where it mentions the prophetic, and then asking God what the difference is between prophecy in the New and in the Old. Prophecy is something that will be around until Jesus comes, according to 1st Corinthians 13. |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 187
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 1:49 am: | |
Honestwitness---
I really appreciated your comments on the last page! Thanks!
All---
I've seen many people "slain in the Spirit"... while I haven't seen any that seemed outright demonic, at the same time I have seen many that were probably of the flesh.
In particular I saw one meeting where the speaker was praying for someone and actually waiting for him to fall so that he could continue. He said all sorts of things about surrendering to God, which were in effect telling the standing person that he needs to surrender to God more. The evidence (to the speaker) that the guy had not fully surrendered to God seemed to be that the guy was still standing. Eeek. It was abusive.
On the other hand, I've known people who fell under the power of the Spirit and met God. It hasn't happened to me, but there have been a few times where I was unable to get up (I went on my face voluntarily) because of the thickness of His presence-------sorry, I don't know how to describe it any better than to say that the air seemed thick with His presence and all through me.
I don't think that being "slain in the Spirit" should be any kind of doctrine. Like receiving tongues when baptized by the Spirit, I think it happens to some but not to all. A big problem seems to come when people expect it and make it an unspoken rule. I don't think "slain in the Spirit" is necessarily "Biblical" in the way of being a doctrine or regular practice, but I also don't think it is unbiblical, either. The examples of John, Daniel, and particularly King Saul stand out. These examples show, I believe, that it is not outside the realm of God's nature to do such a thing. But they don't make it a rule of practice or regular expectation. However if it happens, well, it happens. Seek God above all. |
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 60
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 7:46 am: | |
Agapetos quote: I don't think that being "slain in the Spirit" should be any kind of doctrine.
I agree Agapetos. Being "slain in the Spirit" is not something you can make happen...it is something that happens to you. If a person does not fall it does not mean that they are not fully surrendered at all. I think some ministers feel that people need to fall so that others will think highly of them - that is wrong. I think a minister should just lay his hands on people and if people fall they fall and if they don't they don't. Being "slain in the Spirit" is not what is important, but changed lives and hearts turned toward Jesus which can result from such an experience. |
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 63
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 8:33 am: | |
Stan,
Just wanted to clarify something. The "little gods" belief is not that Christians are actually little gods, but are people with God living inside of them and empowering them to go and do all that He has commanded them to do. (i.e. Like that song I learned as a child "We are His hands to touch the world around us, we are His feet to go where He may lead....") |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1910
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 9:31 am: | |
Ramone,
On some other threads (such as the one on denominations and "beating Heart") you have either implied or said directly that it doesn't really matter if people believe in the Trinity. You did imply that we can accept T.D. Jakes, Benny Hinn, and Joel Osteen, even if by any evangelical standard, these people are preaching a false gospel.
If a teacher is not clear on even who God is--such as the Triune God of the Bible--there is no way we have any business at all giving these people the benefit of the doubt. These kind of teachers are wolves in sheep's clothing. Christ's words of warning about deception in the last days have absolutely no meaning if you are correct in your evaluation about these teachers who are clearly teaching a false gospel.
So Ramone, a question for you; Is believing in the Triune God an essential of the faith in your mind? I want to clarify this, because I have seen you say or imply this on other threads, so maybe you can clear this up now.
U2,
I was a member of Walter Martin's Bible class for years, and his greatest concern about who is doing the most damage to the body of Christ was these "Word-faith" teachers. Regarding the "little gods" doctrine. Respectfully, you are just incorrect about the dangerous implications of this theology. Kenneth Copeland would say "Dogs beget dogs, and cats beget cats, and God begets "gods". This doctrine of little gods is no better than Mormonism. In fact, I will say that most of these faith teachers are just as bad off as the Mormons.
Folks, we have to stick to some basic essentials of the faith. We cannot accept everyone who says "Lord Lord" Jesus said there will be many at the judgment who will claim to have known Christ, but the Lord will say "I never knew you".
Matthew 7:12,13 is very clear: 'broad is the way that leads to destruction, but narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it'.
J. Vernon Mcgee predicted thirty years ago, that most of the visible church will become apostate before Christ comes. We are seeing that prophecy being fulfilled today when we see today's visible evangelical church openly embracing the Pope, Catholicism, even Mormonism, and people who wer once considered cults--such as oneness pentecostal--now all accepted in this one big umbrella--Let's just all get along!
Stan |
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 65
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 10:21 am: | |
Stan,
You do not believe you are a new creation with Christ living in you? Humans are not gods. It is the Christ living in you that is God. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1912
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 5:03 pm: | |
U2,
That is right. But the Word-faith teachers have said that we are literally "little gods". Here is an excellent article on "word-faith" and why it is such a heretical teaching:
http://www.biblebb.com/files/WRDFAITH.HTM
And just a sample of the type of unbiblical teaching you will find:
AN EXAMINATION OF THE WORD-FAITH MOVEMENT
by
Richard J. Vincent
"You don't have a god in you, you are one."(1)
"Pray to yourself, because I'm in your self and you're in Myself. We are one Spirit, saith the Lord."(2)
"I say this with all respect so that it don't upset you too bad, but I say it anyway. When I read in the Bible where he [Jesus] says, 'I Am,' I just smile and say, 'Yes, I Am, too!'"(3)
What group would say such outrageous things? What group would have the nerve to perpetuate such blasphemous doctrines? Could it be the Jehovah's Witnesses? the Mormons? the Unitarians? the New Agers? Could it beóthe Christians?
The Word-Faith Teachers
The Word-Faith Teachers. This is the group that would seek to convince us that Jesus and His disciples were rich, that to be poor is a sin, to be sick is a sin, and that faith is a creative force that we can use to shape our world just like God supposedly created this world and universe that we live in through His "faith"!
Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Paul Crouch, John Avanzini, Robert Tilton, Fred Price, and Benny Hinn (who at the time of this writing has authored the number one best selling Christian book in America, "Good Morning, Holy Spirit") are just a few that spew out this theological vomit.
A Sampling of Error
To name just a few of the more outrageous things that have been said by these so-called teachers will stagger the senses:
John Avanzini is convinced that "Jesus had a nice big house",(4) "Jesus wore designer clothes",(5) and "Jesus was handling big money".(6)
Fred Price also claims that Jesus was rich and that He left us with an example to follow. That is why Fred drives a Rolls Royce; he is following Jesus' example!
Mr. Price also communicates one of the more sickening beliefs of the Word-Faith teachers which shocks even those with a mild amount of common sense. He says, "How can you glorify God in your body, when it doesn't function right?....What makes you think the Holy Ghost wants to live inside of a body where He can't see out through the windows, and He can't hear out the ears?"(7) This insulting and insensitive comment regarding the handicapped and crippled among us stirs up anger in even the most hardened of consciences. Yet this statement by Mr. Price is followed by exuberant applause and approval from his congregation (I would like to hear Mr. Price say this to Joni Eareckson, or Tony Melendez).
These kind of statements boggle our minds and stagger our senses. It would seem that most people would see the error in these teachings, yet millions follow these men with a militant passion."
Doesn't that kind of teaching produce outrage? These are the most blatant deceptions of these teachers, and there are more subtle ones as well.
Stan
|
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 67
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 6:14 pm: | |
Stan,
I realize you have strong opinions about this issue. One must also realize these articles are written from a biased point of view. BTW, Benny Hinn is not considered Word of Faith. He may associate with them, but he is not considered Word of Faith. A sentence taken from here and there with over 15 years of preaching does not equal contextual support. Perhaps, a person would have a better idea of what the sentence is referring to if they heard the whole sermon or at least a paragraph of the sermon. For instance, I'm pretty sure the "Jesus wore designer clothes" was talking about Jesus's robe that the Roman soldiers at the cross wanted. It was desirable enough to them that they didn't want to tear it, but cast lots for it. I am not naive about this. Since Ken Copeland was referred to I am pasting a copy of his statement of beliefs and mission statement.
Statement of Faith
*
We believe in one God-Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Creator of all things.
*
We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, died, was buried, was resurrected, ascended into heaven, and is now seated at the right hand of God the Father and is true God and true man.
*
We believe the Bible in its entirety to be the inspired Word of God and the infallible rule of faith and conduct.
*
We believe in the resurrection of the dead, the eternal happiness of the saved, and the eternal punishment of the lost.
*
We believe in personal salvation of believers through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
*
We believe in sanctification through the Word of God and by the Holy Spirit, and we believe in personal holiness, purity of heart and life.
*
We believe in divine healing, through faith in the Name of Jesus Christ, and that healing is included in the Redemption.
*
We believe in water baptism, in the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as distinct from the New Birth, in speaking with tongues as the Spirit of God gives utterance (Acts 2:4), in the gifts of the Spirit, and the evidence of the fruit of the Spirit. We believe that all of these are available to believers.
*
We believe in the Christian's hope-the soon-coming, personal return of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Mission Statement
*
The mission of Kenneth Copeland Ministries and Eagle Mountain International Church is to teach Christians worldwide who they are in Christ Jesus and how to live a victorious life in their covenant rights and privileges. The fulfillment of that mission takes place when those believers become rooted and grounded enough in God's Word to reach out and teach others these same principles.
*
We are called to lead people, primarily born-again believers, to the place where they operate proficiently in the biblical principles of faith, love, healing, prosperity, redemption and righteousness, and to the place where they can share those principles with others.
*
We are called to assist believers in becoming rooted, grounded and established in the Word of God by teaching them to give God's Word first place in their lives (Colossians 1:23, Psalm 112).
*
We are called to reveal the mysteries, the victorious revelations of God's Word, that have been hidden from the ages (Colossians 1:25-28).
*
We are called to build an army of mature believers, bringing them from milk to meat, from religion to reality. We are called to train them to become skillful in the word of righteousness, to stand firm in the spiritual warfare against the kingdom of darkness (Hebrews 5:12-14, Ephesians 6:10-18).
*
We are called to proclaim that "Jesus Is Lord" from the top of the world to the bottom and all the way around.The vision is being accomplished through the ministry efforts of Kenneth Copeland Ministries, Eagle Mountain International Church and staff on a worldwide scale through the local church and the use of television, campaigns, conventions, books, tapes, recordings and personal correspondence and is multiplied through the financial support of other ministries of like purpose.
I'm glad you do believe that you are a new creation with Jesus living in you. So do I  I don't feel it is fruitful to argue with you about this. Let's just agree to disagree |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 193
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 7:39 pm: | |
Hi Stan,
You know, the thing about the Trinity problems you've focused on is this: in the little I've heard of T.D. Jakes (the book, "Naked and Not Ashamed", as well as a sermon from "Woman, Thou Art Loosed"), in that little bit, I haven't heard him preach against the Trinity. Further, his heart for people was crying out. I don't know the man, I don't get to watch him (we don't have TBN in Japan), but I clearly heard God's heart especially in the book I read. I don't think it's impossible that Jakes knew God. Yes, he may have an incorrect belief about him, but the fruit of what he was teaching in the book I read was something that cannot come from a bad root.
Ironically, if people like Jakes and Tenney are anti-trinitarian, they yet seem to have more of a relationship with the Holy Spirit than many Evangelicals. I always found it puzzling how some pentecostal denominations didn't acknowledge the Holy Spirit as God, yet knew Him clearly in a way that many Evangelicals would be fearful of or even hostile toward.
About the Trinity, I believe in it. Yet I can see some texts which some people might cling to and get the idea that the Trinity isn't as solid as it is for you & I. So I allow that there might be some debate about it. I believe in the Trinity, yet I admit that it's not clearly spelled out in the Bible (this is why the church felt the need to add that little text in 1st John 5).
Anyway, if someone is vehemently preaching against the Trinity, then I might have a problem. But if they're not, and if their ministry is full of love and good fruit, then I think I'm not going to cry out "false gospel" even if they have a couple incorrect beliefs. If I get a chance to talk to them about it and the Spirit leads, I'll share. But if not, I'll wait on God's timing. And more than anything, I would want to do this in love.
Especially for someone like Mother Teresa, because the love of God just oozed out of that woman. Yes, I'd disagree with things, but I want to approach those in love, especially because that is a language that these people understand very, very well---often better than we do.
Finally, about Christ's words of deception in the last days, don't forget that He said many would leave the faith because their agape love grew cold, but that if we stood firm in it, we would be saved. Agape love is something the church knows. If we're not showing agape love, we don't belong to Him. The world will know us by His love.
P.S. About "little Gods"---many 'watchers' hang onto things like this, but the real test is what the people listening take away from the message. Do they go around saying they are mini-gods? I don't think so. It's like C.S. Lewis' example in Mere Christianity: he said that Christ's object was to make us like "little Christs". Now, on the other hand, if the people who heard are going around thinking they're divine and saying weird things like the Mormons, it's a different matter. But once you talk to "them", I think you'll find that they're not like this. That is, unless you don't let them speak. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1913
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 8:52 pm: | |
U2,
It doesn't matter that Copeland, like Benny Hinn has a belief statement that appears orthodox. We have to look at the fruit and teahings of his ministry. Here is a man that said that Christ did not claim to be God while on earth!
Here are some more outright heretical quotes from Kenneth Copeland:
Copeland is perhaps the best known proponent of the charismatic's "little gods" teaching (see below). He says Jesus told him:
"Don't be disturbed when people accuse you of thinking you are God ... They crucified Me for claiming I was God. I didn't claim that I was God; I just claimed that I walked with Him and that He was in Me. Hallelujah! That's what you're doing ..." ("Take Time to Pray," Believer's Voice of Victory, 2/87, p. 9).
Copeland thus denies the uniqueness of Christ, saying that Christ was not God, only that He walked closely with God. And as Copeland says, so does he! Copeland, thereby, places himself on the same level as Jesus Christ, willing to blur the distinction between the will of God and the will of Copeland. Copeland seems to think that he and Jesus have about the same authority for the believer, and sounds like New Ager Shirley MacClaine when he says:
"You're all God. You don't have a God living in you; you are one! ... When I read in the Bible where God tells Moses, 'I AM,' I say, 'Yah, I am too!'" ("The Force of Love," Tape BBC-56).
- Copeland teaches that Adam was "created in the god class"; i.e., he was a reproduction of God:
"He was not subordinate to God ... [but] was walking as a god with the authority of a god. ... What he said went. What he did, counted. [And when he] bowed his knee to Satan and put Satan up above him, then there wasn't anything God could do about it, because a god had placed [Satan] there" ("The Force of Love," tape #02-0028).
When Adam committed high treason, according to Copeland, even though "created in the god class," he fell below the god class, but on the cross, Jesus won the right for believers to be born again back into the "god class" (see below). Jesus' deity, according to Copeland, encompasses "healing, deliverance, financial prosperity, mental prosperity, physical prosperity, and family prosperity." And because believers are now back in the "god class," they are guaranteed those blessings here and now (Charismatic Chaos, p. 272).
- Copeland teaches, as do all the Word-Faith teachers, that "Jesus Died Spiritually" (JDS). What makes the Word-Faith teachers' version of JDS, heresy (if not blasphemy), is their teaching that our redemption comes not from Christ's death upon the cross, but from His being tortured by Satan in hell for three days and nights! Copeland has, thus, embraced a heresy known as the "Ransom theory of the atonement." It is the view that Christ's death was a ransom paid to Satan to settle the legal claim the devil had on the human race because of Adam's sin. But that view contradicts the clear Biblical teaching that Christ's death was a sacrifice offered to God, not to Satan (Eph. 5:2) (Charismatic Chaos, p. 278). Copeland, for example, says:
"He allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell as if He were the most wicked sinner who ever lived ... Every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him ... [They] tortured Him beyond anything that anybody has ever conceived ... In a thunder of spiritual force, the voice of God spoke to the death-whipped, broken, punished spirit of Jesus ... [in] the pit of destruction, and charged the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life ... He was literally being reborn before the devil's very eyes. He began to flex His spiritual muscles ... Jesus Christ dragged Satan up and down the halls of hell ... Jesus ... was raised up a born-again man ... The day I realized that a born-again man had defeated Satan, hell, and death, I got so excited ... !" ("The Price of it All," Believerís Voice of Victory, September 1991, p. 4).
It is both fanciful nonsense and heretical to teach that our redemption comes through Satan torturing Jesus in hell. That would make Satan our co-redeemer. If he didn't torture Jesus enough, we wouldn't be saved -- and if he did, do we thank Satan? Incredible! Moreover, Satan isn't even the proprietor of hell. He hasn't even been there yet. Nor will Satan torture the damned but will himself be tortured with "everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41) when death and hell have been "cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:14).
Before He died, Jesus cried in triumph, "It is finished" (Jn. 19:30), indicating that our redemption has been accomplished on the Cross. Christ told the thief on the cross who believed in Him, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Lk. 23:43), not in hell! He said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" (Lk. 23:46). Yet Hagin, Copeland, et al., say He ended up, instead, in the hands of Satan in the depths of hell! What blasphemy! (5/93, Berean Call).
- Word-Faith teachers owe their ancestry to groups like Christian Science, Swedenborgianism, Theosophy, Science of Mind, and New Thought..."
So, U2, do you believe Christ had to go to hell after the cross, be tortured in hell, and become born again in hell? This kind of teaching is blasphemous. This is a different gospel.
Stan
|
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4340
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 8:56 pm: | |
Most of us on this forum left Adventism, at least in part, because of false doctrines and a false prophet. We really must take false doctrine about the nature of God and Christ and salvation and the Scriptures seriously; Paul took it so seriously he wrote a small tirade against legalism to the Galations and against gnositicism to the Colossians.
Knowing Jesus is absolutely centralóbut false doctrines take the power out of the corporate church and out of the personal lives of believers.
The issue of who Jesus isówho God isóreally does make a huge difference in whether or not a person is experiencing and/or teaching truth. Ultimately, it makes a difference in whether or not people are saved. Sometimes a teacher will be a saved person who knows Jesus but doesn't teach Him or the basics of salvation clearly. He himself is not necessarily lostóbut those under his influence may be lost if they are not taught the truth about Jesus and salvation.
I agree that a truly God-fearing person will bear the fruit of the Spirit. He/she will be compassionate, responsive, and loving with the heart of Jesus. But he/she will also uphold the core Biblical doctrines of God, Jesus, and salvation.
Conversely, a person may have impeccable doctrines but still not know Jesusóor live a life of compassion and love. This is equally damaging to both believers and unbelievers.
We need to be true to the Bible and true to Jesusóand it's our responsibility to ask God to teach us truth, to reveal to us what He wants us to know about Him, and to deepen us in spiritual maturity.
Colleen |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1914
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 9:08 pm: | |
Ramone wrote:
"Ironically, if people like Jakes and Tenney are anti-trinitarian, they yet seem to have more of a relationship with the Holy Spirit than many Evangelicals. I always found it puzzling how some pentecostal denominations didn't acknowledge the Holy Spirit as God, yet knew Him clearly in a way that many Evangelicals would be fearful of or even hostile toward."
Ramone,
If there are pentecostals who deny that the Holy Spirit is God, how in the world can you possibly call them Christians? It is a plain and simple fact--if a person denies the doctrine of the Triune God, they are not truly born again. If a person doesn't even know who God is, they can't possibly know Him.
If these "pentecostals" don't believe that the Holy Spirit is God, then the spirit they supposedly know is a different spirit and is part of the doctrine of demons.
I am sorry Ramone, but we must be clear about heresy. Would you then accept a Mormon or a JW as your brother in Christ? After all, he is only wrong about who Christ is--but is that no big deal?
Stan
|
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 68
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 9:51 pm: | |
Stan,
My earlier quote "I don't feel it is fruitful to argue with you about this. Let's just agree to disagree :-)"
The determiner of false doctrine for me is the Bible and the Bible alone. |
Lynne
Registered user
Username: Lynne
Post Number: 474
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 9:59 pm: | |
Stan,
Curiously, I was wondering what the problem is with Joel Osteen. I don't know much about him. I heard on a Christian radio station the other day him talking about how his grandparents raised him Baptist. I looked at one of his books and didn't see anything troublesome to me in it, though I didn't read it completely. I was just wondering what insight you have on him or knowledge that you have that I don't.
Thanks..
|
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4342
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 10:49 pm: | |
I believe it's really important to examine doctrine and to stay grounded in the Bible.
This forum, however, is for supporting people who are struggling with Adventism and searching for a home in the Christian community. While I don't have a problem with recommending churches, etc., it is beyond the scope of this forum to dissect personalities and their beliefs here. This is not a forum for discussing various leaders' possible heresies; it is a place for support, prayer, and pointing people to Jesus.
People with many different "theologies" are alive in Christ, and we can trust the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth, as Jesus promised, when we submit to Him to learn truth.
When we ask God to direct us to a place where we can worship and fellowship, when we ask Him to reveal truth to us and to teach us with His SpiritóHe will be faithful to do these things. The bottom line for us must be that we immerse ourselves in the Bible, praying for His teaching. Other books are often helpfulóbut nothing can substitute for personally studying Scripture.
Scripture is where God has revealed His will and His heart; His Spirit will enlighten us as we submit ourselves to His word in willingness to learn. The internal consistency, the amazing centrality of Jesus just grows and deepens with increasing Bible study. He is all we needóand His Word is sufficient for us.
If you want to know truth, don't depend on theologians. Go to the Bible.
Colleen
[This thread is closed]
(Message edited by admin on July 17, 2006) |
|
