| Author | Message | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 451 Registered: 2-2001 |
Last night I flipped to a channel that was selling the NEST videos. They started out several years ago and are great Bible videos, but they were now focusing on the K 10 C or Kids Ten Commandments. For 30 minutes I watched in amazement as they went on and on about having your kids memorize the 10 C's. Jesus was spoken of only at first and in a cursury way. They preached of the Sabbath as a day of rest. They then said this project was started by the makers of McGee and Me (I think that was the name). Are these SDA or has another religion gotten on the Sabbath bandwagon? PS Grace was NOT a focus! | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 33 Registered: 11-2004 |
I know some Christians who feel the importance of keeping the Sabbath, but they believe Sabbath is Sunday. I've seen the Kids 10 C show and don't know what the denominational background is, but I do not think they are referring to Saturday as the Sabbath at all. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1885 Registered: 3-2005 |
I see no harm in teaching children the ten commandments. Martin Luther who said in no uncertain terms, that the Decalogue is not for Christians to follow, was adamant about kids learning the Decalogue, and is part of Lutheran catechisms for kids. Stan | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 510 Registered: 7-2004  |
Yes, as Lutherans with kids in Confirmation class, I know the 10 C's are a big part of class, which I have found to be a little uncomfortable. However, I find Luther's answer in his catechism to be the most Biblical as to why we no longer keep a Sabbath day, as opposed to the answer given in confirmation class, that the principle of worshiping God continues. Luther's answer was that Jesus is our Sabbath rest and we are no longer bound to observance of any day (rough paraphrase). | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1400 Registered: 10-2004  |
The problem I see with teaching kids the 10 commandments (or even 9 commandments) is that Jesus fulfilled the entire Law, and we are not under that law. The Law was merely a shadow pointing towards Christ. Also, if kids are taught the 10 Commandments, they are being set up to be deceived by the SDAs when they come along with their guilt-tripping propaganda about the Sabbath commandment. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 14, 2006) | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 511 Registered: 7-2004 |
That's my concern, Jeremy. And yet there are plenty of "commands" in the New Testament both in Jesus' teachings and Paul's writings, including restatement of 9 of the 10 C's. So it must not be inherently "wrong" to teach such prohibitions. I suppose most Christians see the 10 C's as a short simple list of the main prohibitions to make teaching simpler. I would far rather see a focus on teaching Jesus in our heart produces the fruit of the spirit and use that list (if one must be had as way of illustration) and what that looks like in everday life. Also, I wouldn't have a problem if learning the 10 C's were for the purpose of pointing out how lost we are without Jesus, but with care taken that no one mistakes that for meaning the 10 C's are our standard to adhere to so we can be "good" and worth saving. (Message edited by Raven on July 14, 2006) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4318 Registered: 12-2003  |
I believe McGee and Me was developed by Focus on the Family. McGee is currently published by Tyndale House, but the website has a link to Focus where there is a page advertising every McGee video. James Dobson is a member of the Nazarene church, which is rooted in 10 Commandment-keeping. I knew a Nazarene woman a few years ago who with her husband had begun attending Trinity Church. One day she said to me, your experiences and our are very similar. Now, the Nazarenes do not have a prophet, and they do teach the full atonement of Jesusóas far as I know. I also know, however, that their focus on the law sets them up for Adventism. Just a couple of months ago I had a few phone calls from a woman who had been a pastor of a Nazarene church. Without doubt she knew Jesusóbut she was about to join the Adventist church because she liked the Sabbath and felt comfortable with their use of the law. She had serious concerns about the investigative judgment, however, and she was not sure she should join. We had several long talks, and I don't actually know what happened in the end, although she sounded as if she were leaning towards joining. I agree, Jeremy, that there is danger in children's learning the 10 Commandments as a guide to life, as this Nazarene pastor's experience demonstrates. RavenóLuther's explanation is goodóand your kids are blessed to have you and Rick there to teach them this bottom line reality of Sabbath! Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 59 Registered: 6-2006  |
Raven, I just found this online - http://www.ondoctrine.com/2lut0907.htm It's "The Fourth Commandment" by Martin Luther. I think this is what you were paraphrasing; " This commandment, therefore, according to its gross sense, does not concern us Christians; for it is altogether an external matter, like other ordinances of the Old Testament, which were attached to particular customs, persons, times, and places, and now have been made free through Christ."  Leigh Anne | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 36 Registered: 11-2004 |
I have no problem with my children learning about the 10 commandments, but when they learn them they will also learn the purpose for the law and how Jesus fulfilled the law. They are too little to understand all that now, but when they get older that is how I will approach it. I too see danger in stressing the importance of the 10 commandments especially when SDAs come along and the person finds out that Saturday is the Sabbath. From my experience most SDAs (my former self included) seem to think that other Christians are Sundsy keepers and ignorant that Saturday is the Sabbath. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1887 Registered: 3-2005 |
Good points Colleen about the Nazarene church. There is a spectrum of churches from the most Arminian or semi-pelagian, to less Arminian, to those who believe completely in salvation by grace alone. You have RCC as the most, then SDA, then probably Methodist, then Nazarene and some pentecostal. There is little difference between SDA and these churches, because there are several Pentecostal churches who have false prophets as Lynne pointed out on another thread. Leigh Anne, Thanks for the Luther link. Luther was very sensible: "But to grasp a Christian meaning for the simple as to what God requires in this commandment, note that we keep holy days not for the sake of intelligent and learned Christians (for they have no need of it [holy days]), but first of all for bodily causes and necessities, which nature teaches and requires; for the common people, man-servants and maid-servants, who have been attending to their work and trade the whole week, that for a day they may retire in order to rest and be refreshed. Secondly, and most especially, that on such day of rest (since we can get no other opportunity) freedom and time be taken to attend divine service, so that we come together to hear and treat of God's and then to praise God, to sing and pray. However, this, I say, is not so restricted to any time, as with the Jews, that it must be just on this or that day; for in itself no one day is better than another; but this should indeed be done daily; however, since the masses cannot give such attendance, there must be at least one day in the week set apart. But since from of old Sunday [the Lord's Day] has been appointed for this purpose, we also should continue the same, in order that everything be done in harmonious order, and no one create disorder by unnecessary innovation. Therefore this is the simple meaning of the commandment..." So, I can't possibly understand why it is harmful for kids to memorize and learn the ten C's. I know for a long time after leaving SDA, I had a natural aversion to the decalogue, but after a few more years have past, I no longer have this aversion. Children are not going to understand the nuances of the great New Covenant truths, and Luther believed this as well. The Apostle Paul said the Law was Holy, Just, and Good, and I agree with him--He even mentioned specific ten C's in Romans seven when he made these statements. So I believe there is a right use of the Law, but it certainly isn't for the mature Christian to follow as a checklist--we are agreed on that. Stan | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 39 Registered: 11-2004 |
Stan, While I agree that it isn't harmful to memorize and learn the 10 C's, I feel it would be more beneficial for a child to memorize a different part of scripture. I don't think that the concept of the purpose of the law would be lost on children. They should be able to understand the fall of man and need for a Savior, that God made rules to show people how God wanted them to live and how nobody could follow all the rules because it was too hard, And how Jesus was able to follow the rules and die for us to get us in right standing with God and have the Holy Spirit come and live inside us to guide us. And now we can rest from trying to be good enough at following the rules and live a life of love toward others. I don't think those concepts are beyond the reach of children. Maybe that isn't what you were talking about though | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 40 Registered: 11-2004 |
I forgot to mention that I memorized the Exodus 20 account of the 10 commandments when I was in elementary school and even recited it to the whole church on my own. It helped me practice memory skills, but I can't say that it did much for me in my Christian walk. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1402 Registered: 10-2004 |
I believe that we should not be focusing on the Law, as Christians. If we do that, it's as if we're saying that Christ has not come and all we have still is the shadow (the Law) pointing forward to Him. We should be teaching our children the teachings of Jesus and His apostles, now that He has come! Yes, they can grasp the teachings of Jesus. I'm not saying to ignore part of the Bible--I'm just saying that when teaching people (especially kids) about how we're supposed to live as Christians, we should not be using the Law, but the New Testament (Covenant). Jeremy | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 62 Registered: 6-2006 |
I think this conversation is especially helpful for me in raising our children. I like the way U2bsda put it. "I have no problem with my children learning about the 10 commandments, but when they learn them they will also learn the purpose for the law and how Jesus fulfilled the law." As I was growing up, my Mom used to emphasize Jesus' commandments, and I'm guessing that's why I never felt a need to convert to Adventism. I will certainly pass that on to our babies, but I also want to help them remember 1 Corinthians 15, the basic and purest definition of the Gospel. Also, my Pastor said something Sunday morning that I just loved. He said that "Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath so we wouldn't have to." Thanks Friends! | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 512 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thanks for the link, Leigh Anne. Actually the quote I was paraphrasing I can now post directly from Luther's Small Catechism (p. 66, 67):
I love how "New Covenant Theology" and Biblical those particular answers are! Go Luther! | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 64 Registered: 6-2006 |
Thanks Raven! How much more to the point can you get? It's nice - no drama, no double talk, just simple and to the point. Love it! At your church, how often do you hear Luther's writings? I've rarely visited any other Lutheran church, so I'm not familiar with how the other churches use his writings. I've been at the same church all my life (I'm 39) and really, the only time we hear about old Martin is on Reformation Sunday! I'm impressed with how much you know, and I actually learned something in looking him up online. Thanks Mucho, Leigh Anne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1404 Registered: 10-2004 |
"I love how "New Covenant Theology" and Biblical those particular answers are!" Yes, Raven, I agree--they're great! Jeremy | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 577 Registered: 7-2004  |
Leigh Anne, we don't hear much at all from Luther. The kids go through the catechism and once in a while we will hear something in the adult SS class (but very rarely). I find myself wishing at times that more Lutherans were familiar with his writings. They might appreciate and understand the teachings of the church better. I don't know that his writings on justification have been improved upon over the centuries. And his commentary on Galatians should be required reading (particularly for evangelical and former SDAs!). I had been raised Lutheran before becoming SDA, but I had no idea how "Lutheran" much of more core theology had become after leaving SDAism because I never knew or understood it when I was younger. I knew that my understanding of justification was consistent with Luther, but as I started reading more books and articles relating to the law and to sanctification (particularly), I was rather shocked to learn just how closely the conclusions of my own Bible study matched. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 795 Registered: 4-2000  |
Raven, Excellent quotes from Martin Luther! Dennis Fischer | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 142 Registered: 11-2005 |
Very interesting about the Nazarene Church. My former SDA church often had joint "functions" (like games, church retreats, outings, seminars, etc.) with the local Nazarene Church and Baptist Church. I was always fascinated by this, because I had never seen a SDA church mingle with "outside" churches like this church, but I figured it was because I was in Southern CA now rather than MI. I remember being so impressed by it, and thought it was great that they fellowshipped together. Often enough though, I would wonder what the motive was if there was one. By the way, the joint functions were ALWAYS on Adventist territory. They were always at our church, our camp (Pine Springs), and within our "Sabbath" rules. The SDA church was definitely the host church, because afterwards, the pastors from these other churches would thank them for including them, and providing facilities, etc. |
