| Author | Message | ||
| Deadmanwalking Registered user Username: Deadmanwalking Post Number: 20 Registered: 4-2006  |
Most, and I do mean MOST, of what passes for Christianity in America today is better described as Moralistic Therapeutic Deism. David Wells new book, ìAbove All Earthly Powersî is excellent! http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802829023/qid=1152571793/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-1386009-4904639?s=books&v=glance&n=283155 Also, If anybody has time Iíd love to met you at the Desiring God fall conference in Minneapolis by the same title. I will be there with several current and former SDAís and a current SDA Pastor. http://www.desiringgod.org/news_events/dgm_national/2006/invitation.html And: http://www.desiringgod.org/news_events/dgm_national/2006/videos.html Soli Deo Gloria, Richard | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4294 Registered: 12-2003  |
U2bSDA, you're probably seeing that those of us who have left Adventism have found nurturing church environments in a variety of denominations and congregational churches. Please don't feel that the opionions expressed here necessarily are prescriptive for you! My personal recommendation is that you immerse yourself in the Bible. When people leave Adventism, the single thing they most lack is a true knowledge of the Bible. All the truth you need for your life is found in the Bible. If you ask God to direct you as you study His word, He will definitely teach you. It is really important to understand that God has revealed His will and His heart to us through the words of Scripture. When you are leaving Adventism, it's really important not to transfer your almost unconcsious dependence upon the church's (and EGW's) Biblical interpretation to other theologians. God Himself is your teacher, and the Bible alone must be your rule for living. Submitting your life to Jesus as He is revealed through Word of God is a stance none of us knew in Adventism. It is, though, the stance of a true Christ-follower. If you are asking God to guide you and are willing to submit yourself to His sovereign leading in your life, you will end up in the church where He wants you to be. Obviously some here are heavily into Reformed theologyóothers are not. Do not let people's personal opinions convince you of where you should be. God has already prepared a place for you in a fellowship where you can grow and become grounded in Jesus, His word, and the body of Christ. The only truth to which you must submit is the truth of Jesus and Him crucified and risen again. He will personally teach you, and the Holy Spirit will subsequently lead you into all truth. You can trust Him. Remember to check any church's theology against the Bible's teaching, and humbly depend on God to teach you and to reveal Himself. He is faithful, and He will not deceive you. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 159 Registered: 10-2002  |
U2bsda--- God is faithful to lead you to Himself, no matter what 'churches' that journey might lead through. For my wife and I, the journey has included a few stops along the way... I officially left Adventism in late summer 2002, I think. My wife left officially sometime later, but really, we'd both truly "left" long before that. While still in California at LSU, I had been part of a prayer group every Thursday night, and sometimes on Sundays went to visit an AOG church. Sometimes friends and I visited other churches later on. Twice, my friends and I visited Harvest Rock in Pasadena (a former Vineyard church that partnered with TACF), and the second time was baptized in the Holy Spirit. When I moved to Japan and began to live with my wife, I went to the local SDA church for awhile and since I was a former missionary, was put into the preaching rotation at the English church. That led to the summer "official exit" from SDA. For awhile my wife and I had a few meetings here at our home, and then later we visited a few churches. We spent time at two... one was non-denominational charismatic, and probably it's still the church I like best in Osaka. Another was in the charismatic "apostolic/prophetic" movement---and it was this one that I have a large caution about, but at the moment I can't take the time to write about it here. Since then, we've visited a small church twice, and I think my wife & her sister will go there more. It's a little difficult for me because it's all Japanese, but, oh well.  Anyway, I have no idea what "affiliation" that church has. There is good and bad in any church... the important thing is to follow God. Some churches immerse themselves in the Bible. Others immerse themselves in the Spirit. Some love the Scriptures and doctrines, but are missing the true life of the Spirit. Some others have asked for the Spirit but have not let the Spirit break out and teach them Truth. So just follow God. He's faithful to be your Teacher and to guide you to Himself, to build you up with everything you need, because in Him we lack nothing. Bless you as you fall into His arms & are carried along by His Spirit! Ramone | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 107 Registered: 4-2006  |
U2bsda, Assembly of God here with former ties to EV Free, Baptist and Church of God. Church of God was very charismatic and THE MOST blessed service I was ever in was after half the church or more was on it's last day of a seven day fast, including me. No one led that Sunday evening service and no one started it. It was the Holy Spirit alone leading us and I will never forget it. Unfortunatly I will also never forget the many services I have been in where that kind of atmosphere was manufactured-or at least the attempt was made to "have church". The Assembly my wife and I are members of could as easily be EV Free or Baptist and we love it. CW | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1868 Registered: 3-2005 |
Richard wrote: Most, and I do mean MOST, of what passes for Christianity in America today is better described as Moralistic Therapeutic Deism." "David Wells new book, ìAbove All Earthly Powersî is excellent! Also, If anybody has time Iíd love to met you at the Desiring God fall conference in Minneapolis by the same title. I will be there with several current and former SDAís and a current SDA Pastor." Richard, A hearty Amen to the above statements. I would like to read that David Wells book, and I would love to go to John Piper's Desiring God conference. These are some of the genuine prophetic voices in the church today. They give theology that certain clear sound and ring of truth. Stan | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 162 Registered: 10-2002 |
U2bsda--- P.S. on my earlier re-cap of church wanderings. I think I failed to mention the "meetings" with friends at another friend's home, as well as at Starbucks, at my home, walking around places in the city, at cafes, etc. "Church" has begun to take on a much broader (and I believe, Biblical) meaning to us: I believe all of these "meetings" we've had --even with only two of us-- have been "Church". I use quotes ("") for "meetings" because it hardly looks like what most would consider a "church meeting". But God has definitely been there. The moment He is not, that's when we should cease to meet. I wrote about "Church" on my blog last year, and internet author Chip Brogden also said something very profound about it. P.P.S. about the P.S.--- There's this great line about the Aaragorn character in a poem in J.R.R Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings". Aaragorn would one day be king, but to all who saw him, he looked dirty and like he was wandering aimlessly. I think these lines are especially true of those who are following the Lord but who seem "lost" in the eyes of many organized churches: All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2004 |
Thanks for all the posts. Yes, I agree that after coming out of SDAism we cannot rely on any church/person telling us what to believe. All things must be affirmed or confirmed with the Word of God. For me a church that preaches the Word of God and is full of the Holy Spirit is a good fit for me. But I will never put myself in a position again where it is x denomination only for I think most Christians just interpret things differently in the scriptures and are not in "error". | ||
| Segue Registered user Username: Segue Post Number: 1 Registered: 7-2006 |
We moved to this area last year - leaving a pastorate on the west coast. At the moment, we are working with a new church plant in the Raleigh-Durham NC area that is non-denominational. Our intent, Lord willing, is to plant a new 'church' in more of the 'emergent' genre. Anyone know of folks in this triangle area who might be interested in something 'different'? | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2668 Registered: 3-2004  |
Segue, Welcome to FAF. Tell us more of yourself when you can. Diana | ||
| Thomas1 Registered user Username: Thomas1 Post Number: 196 Registered: 4-2002  |
The Bible is an amszing book. I read myself out of belief in the SDA church and into the Southern Baptist Church. In fact, I became a Baptist before I knew what Baptists were. Now am an active member and teacher of a rapidly growing Sunday School class of eager students. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1888 Registered: 3-2005 |
Someone just shared this article from the LA Times about Liberal Christianity, and this is an example of what to stay away from completely. This article is shocking! http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-op-allen9jul09,0,2668973.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions Here is just a short excerpt: "You want to have gay sex? Be a female bishop? Change God's name to Sophia? Go ahead. The just-elected Episcopal presiding bishop, Katharine Jefferts Schori, is a one-woman combination of all these things, having voted for Robinson, blessed same-sex couples in her Nevada diocese, prayed to a female Jesus at the Columbus convention and invited former Newark, N.J., bishop John Shelby Spong, famous for denying Christ's divinity, to address her priests." Where is mainstream Christianity headed? Straight into apostasy. Stan | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 179 Registered: 10-2002 |
Mainstream Christianity (if we mean "Evangelical Protestant Christianity" particularly in America) is actually very upset about liberal Christianity. The line below the article's title clarifies: "Out-of-the-mainstream beliefs about gay marriage and supposedly sexist doctrines are gutting old-line faiths." The main stream of Evangelical Protestant Christianity (particularly in America) is one that is upset about these apostasies. The camp of "Chrisitanity" seems to merely be dividing between those who (mainly) believe or disbelieve certain morals (doctrinal issues are usually traced back to allowing or disallowing a point of morality). As I write this, I notice that the "line" is not Christ---it is morality. Of course people will talk about necessary morals, but I think that things in the old faiths are splintering because of lack of communion with the living Christ... I think many have deteriorated into religion, which is about rules and beliefs instead of relationship with a living Person. As you know that Person, you of course walk in Him. But when you don't know the Person, when all you know is beliefs about Him and morals, well... the best way to sum it up is by quoting something from a book I'm reading: Probably the sad thing, to me, is that by and large mainstream Christianity is answering this apostasy by standing firmly with a bullhorn about morality! In the Gospels, we read that the sinful prostitutes & tax collectors were drawn to Jesus! We (mainstream Christianity), on the other hand, often attract the religious---the same group that had such trouble accepting Jesus and finally crucified Him. Jesus, on the other hand, while standing more firmly "moral" than anyone else in history, at the same time stood up for the sinners---not by excusing their sin, but by looking past it, valuing their hearts and valuing them. In a nutshell He truly loved them. I can't help but think that many of us are more concerned about the "moral slide" than we are with the heart of God---His heart that is beating and breaking for people we often condemn. We decry the apostasies, but Christ wept over Jerusalem. I think it would be awesome to see the Church rise up in God's love, receive God's heart, and weep for people who are in the moral quandry instead of blasting them and getting away from proximity to them as quick as possible. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 796 Registered: 4-2000  |
A special welcome to you, Segue! Dennis Fischer | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 42 Registered: 11-2004 |
Agapetos, I agree. I believe God loves the sinner and wants us to be around sinners to share the light of God with them. I think a church should desire and attract sinners rather than bash them and drive them away. Sinners sin, that is what they are supposed to do. Legislating morality will make no change. Change has to happen from within. If the church of today wants the morality of the nation to change then we need to reach sinners with the Gospel of Jesus. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4324 Registered: 12-2003 |
Segue, welcome to the forum! I'm looking forward to hearing more from you and more of your story. Regarding the "mainline Protestant churches"óI believe you're onto something, Ramone. When Jesus ceases to be the focus, the church eventually dies. Several months ago our pastor said something that really impacted me. He said he believes that the reason so many of the mainline Protestant churches are dying in size and impact is because they have abandoned the true gospel of Jesus. He said he believes their dying away is the realization of Jesus' warnings in Revelation that the churches' candlesticks would be removed if they did not repent and return to honoring and worshiping Jesus. Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1890 Registered: 3-2005 |
Welcome Segue to FAF! What are your impressions so far of the emerging church movement? It looks like you have an interest in this area. Stan | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1891 Registered: 3-2005 |
Colleen, Pastor Gary is correct about his assessment of mainstream Protestantism. Here is a comment from the late Leonard Ravenhill that is worth considering: "Isn't it staggering when you think that one sermon on the day of Pentecost produced 3000 Christian people? And we had some cities yesterday where 3000 sermons were preached and nobody was saved. And it doesn't even faze us. The church used to be a lightning bolt, now it's a cruise ship. We are not marching to Zion - we are sailing there with ease. In the apostolic church it says they were all amazed - And now in our churches everybody wants to be amused. The church began in the upper room with a bunch of men agonizing, and it's ending in the supper room with a bunch of people organizing. We mistake rattle for revival, and commotion for creation, and action for unction. Look, I think this is a critical hour in history, the most critical hour in history; the Middle East is ready to blow up... the prestige of this nation we love has gone down ... As someone said, "We live in a theater of the absurd...When did you last tiptoe out of the sanctuary when you dare not say a word? The church has to rediscover two things. One, the majesty and the Holiness of God, and the other, the sinfulness of sin." Leonard Ravenhill was a remarkable evangelist from Britian who was also a personal friend of A.W. Tozer. Another insightful quote from Ravenhill: "I doubt that more than two percent of professing Christians in the United States are truly born again." Just something to think about on this Saturday afternoon. Stan | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 798 Registered: 4-2000 |
Stan, The quote from the late Leonard Ravenhill is a solemn and accurate characterization of religiosity in our society. For example, it becoming increasingly difficult to hold the attention of children and youth in a religious setting. With all the glitz and entertainment from the modern media, we have a generation of inattentive youngsters in Sunday School. Likewise, as Ravenhill aptly portrayed, adults are entertainment-driven as well. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1895 Registered: 3-2005 |
Here is an interesting piece on the 50 most influential churches in the U.S.: http://theologica.blogspot.com/2006/07/50-most-influential-churches-in-us.html The Church Report has released their latest list of 50 Most Influential Churches in the U.S. It's no surprise that Bill Hybels (Willow Creek: #1) and Rick Warren (Saddleback: #2) again top the list. The list is as interesting s it is depressing. For example, Joel Osteen (Lakewood: #5) preaches a false, feel-good, no-sin, none-gospel, and T.D. Jakes (Potter's House: #8) denies the biblical, orthodox doctrine of the Trinity. But there are some encouragements, like seeing the names of Tim Keller (Redeemer Presbyterian: #16); Mark Driscoll (Mars HIll: #22); John MacArthur (Grace Community: #31); Harry Reeder (Briarwood Presbyterian: #35); Kent Hughes (College Church: #37); John Piper (Bethlehem Baptist: #42); and Tony Evans (Oak Cliff: #44). Stan | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 180 Registered: 10-2002 |
If we look at doctrinal pollution in the Body, of course things are going to look terrible. Call me crazy, though, I have this strong idea that God does not look at things the way we do. We look at doctrines, but God looks to the heart. We decry one another and stand back as soon as anyone gets close to error. But again, I don't think God acts like we do. Remember the difference in Christ's treatment toward the doctrinally-correct Jews and the doctrinally-incorrect Samaritans? God looks to the heart. We are aghast at the apparent pollution of pure truth in the Body. We can shake our heads at it, but how many of us will be on our faces before God for these people we look at as apostates? How many of us will intercede on their behalf? How many of us will pour out our hearts for them? How many of us will do this--and so receive God's heart? We think God's heart is about correct beliefs, but while we were still sinners in all sorts of incorrect beliefs and sins, God loved us and poured out Himself for us. Isn't He calling us to do the same for those who don't know Him? |
