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Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 78
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 3:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Y'all!

I'm sorry if this has been covered already. If it has just direct me to the thread.

What would be a good answer to my dear ones when they say that non-SDA churches think/teach an "anything-goes" attitude? As a "never-been", I don't believe anything goes, but I also don't believe in keeping laws in order to hang on to my salvation.


Need some dialog... I'll take anything!

Leigh Anne
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 1427
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 3:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They can't comprehend a moral code that is instilled in our heart and not on stones. I have testified to the truth in my church and how that statement is a fallicy, but it falls on deaf ears. Really, there is nothing a non-SDA can say to an SDA that will really impact them unless they actually have the Holy Spirit living in them. I heard the same lines over and over and over no matter how many times I tried to refute them or by what proofs I offered.

From one never-wasser to another, my skeptical attitude these days is 'save your breath'.
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 79
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 3:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa, I totally agree that I won't be able to convince an SDA or anyone without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And I certainly don't blame you for your skepticism!

I guess what I'm looking for is just an answer. My usual is that the commands are written on our hearts, not in what we physically do. Is that a good enough answer?

Sometimes I have trouble just in sharing my faith with anyone!
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 2694
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 4:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am a "former" and unless the person is honestly seeking the truth and has the Holy Spirit indwelling them, an SDA does not listen. Just go over to CARM, Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry and read the SDA forum there. No matter how one presents the Bible, they have their ways of refuting it, twisting, evading or just not answering.
What I do with those who do that is tell them than we do not believe the same and I leave them to God or something similar to that. It is very frustrating, but it is not my job to convince and convict, that is God's.
The best thing to do is to pray for all the SDAs that you know and ask God to lead you in what to say and how to say it.
God is always awesome.
Diana
Honestwitness
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Username: Honestwitness

Post Number: 98
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 5:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am a former and I've encountered this same brick wall myself. For what it's worth, I've written a tract that can be printed on two sides of one 8.5" x 11" piece of paper. It's designed to be given/sent/mailed to SDAs with whom one must still relate, on one level or another. It's not necessarily designed to change anyone's mind. But it helps me tremendously to know I have something concrete to offer that at least clarifies my position and gives me the appearance of having carefully studied out my beliefs. You are welcome to use it, if you find it appropriate. You'll find it here:

http://www.honestwitness.com/honestwitness_SPOT.htm

Honestwitness
Dd
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Username: Dd

Post Number: 691
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 7:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Grace,
SDAs like to call New Covenant faith "cheap grace". That is the "anything goes" attitude. I really hate that term because grace is FREE. It cost me nothing but it cost Jesus everything. There is nothing cheap about it. Chuck Swindoll said, in his fabulous book "Grace Awakening", to consider it a compliment when someone tells us we are living in "cheap grace" because it means we really do understand grace.

One SDA question that I hear frequently when I tell them I no longer live under the law is: "Oh, so does that mean you can go and have an affair?" I tell them because of the love my husband has for me, I can't even begin to think of being unfaithful. My husband's love for me changes my desire to love another man just as Jesus' love for me and His dying on the cross for me changes my whole life and desire to live for me, me, me.

It's all about Jesus!
Denise
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4362
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 8:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise, it's so good to hear from you again! Leigh Anne, one thing I sometimes say (and frankly I've never had any SDA respond to this as if they even heard me!) is that the entire text of the New Testament outlines the way I am to live as a Christ-follower. The Holy Spirit indwells us and writes God's personal requirements on our hearts, and He confirms these spiritual convictions with the words of the New Testament. Every sin mentioned in the 10 Commandments besides several others including greed, slander, coarse joking, foolish talk, empty words, wrath, malice, abusive speech, and moreóis mentioned specifically in the NT, and Christ-followers are told to put these behaviors away and to learn to live by the Spirit (see Romans 8).

Colleen
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 80
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Those were beautiful answers. Thanks Friends! I appreciate what each of you have said.

Initially when I was asked that "Anything goes" question, I was taken aback, mainly because I had taken for granted that "Anything does not go" all my life. It's one of those things - you know how to get there, but you may not remember all the street names. A Jewish friend asked me the same question "You mean you can do anything and if you ask forgiveness God will forgive you? Like anything goes??!" My answer was so lame that I didn't believe it myself.

I'm a little slow.

Perhaps this whole situation I'm in, the series of events with my in-laws, is God's gentle way of sstrengthening my faith.

Thank you all for your Christian love and support!
Jorgfe
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Username: Jorgfe

Post Number: 242
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 1:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Honestwitness -- what a great website! I really enjoyed it and can relate to your story.

Gilbert Jorgensen
Violet
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Username: Violet

Post Number: 454
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 10:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is one area of being a New Covenant Christian that amazes me very day. The Holy Spirit really does convict you every day and leads you in the right direction.

This is sort of off the wall, but have you ever taken a drug that made you loose your appatite? No matter what food was put before you, you could not choke it down. That is how it is with the Holy Spirit. Sin become repulsive to you and you see no temptation. Remember the standard--Turn your eyes upon Jesus---the things of earth will grow strangly dim--in the light of His glory and grace.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4370
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Violet, I have marvelled at the same thing. While God doesn't address all my sins and temptations at once, I am definitely finding that my taste for many things has decidedly disappeared, and my desires are different in many ways.

I am in awe of God's faithfulness to complete His work in us!

Colleen
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 2257
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I honestly, truly believe there are people who need external rules to abide by. To let those folks have charge of their own actions whold be disastrous. Now, with Jesus in their hearts then it would be good because Jesus said the law of His was to love one another, to love ones enemy as ones self. But, for folks who have a religion that isn't based in Jesus then all those external rules keeps them living honest and moral lives. This is why I think the SDA and the JW and to some extent some other denominations get so many members, because in a free and open society like we have here in the United States the temptation of living a sinful life can be very overpowering and without Jesus a person who wants to live a decent life could need the structure that a rules oriented church offers.
Of course, there are athesists and others eho live a decent and forthright life but I am not addressing them. I am addressing the ones that need that external control to life right.
Peperpat
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Username: Peperpat

Post Number: 14
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 5:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A rules oriented church also affords a certain 'freedom' from so much decision making. One only has to follow the leader to feel they are saved, and perhaps, holier than the next person.
Violet
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Username: Violet

Post Number: 462
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 6:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think you are right Peperpat, rules allow you not to think. The problem that lies within is you are allowing others to think for you.
Susan_2 I also agree that some need external rules to live by, but it should be only as a training period until they can decern right from wrong. (This is all about the spiritual part of your life) Isn't that what Paul tells us? That the law was given as a tutor so that we might know we are sinful.

I use to get so sick of hearing that anyone who did not follow the Sabbath, dietary laws etc. "correctly" were just baby Christians. Now I can see clearly that the ones who had to have the law are babies, as they are led by the tutor and not by the Holy Spirit.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4386
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 9:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree, Violet and Patti. Interestingly, when people accuse us of throwing out the law when we accept Jesus as our Sabbath rest, they fail to recognize that the entire text of the New Testament clearly spells out the kinds of behavior God expects His people to embrace.

If anyone needs a "list" in order to begin to understand how to live as a Christ-follower, the NT is even more detailed than the Decalogue regarding Christ-like behavior. It includes greed, slander, malice, abusive speech, lying, unresolved anger, empty talk, and coarse joking in the multiple lists of behavior which will NOT characterize those who are in the kingdom of God.

The only "bevahior" the NT does not list as being expected of Christ-followers is Saturday worship. It clearly admonishes us not to forsake meeting together; it cleary speaks against immorality, impurity, lust, homosexuality, arguing unproductively about law and geneaologies. It clearly identifies prohibitions against food and marriage as being doctrines of deceiving spirits.

The argument Adventists use when we talk about the New Covenant and Jesus being our Sabbath restóthat if we toss the 4th commandment we're tossing all moral behavioróis clearly a straw-man argument.

The Holy Spirit teaches us God's morality personally. If there is any doubt what that looks like, the entire New Testament describes a godly life in more detail than the Mosaic covenant did. The entire text of the New Testament is the written rule of faith and practice in the New Covenantóand in addition, we have the indwelling Holy SpiritóGod Himselfówho is teaching us and making us holy, set apart for His glory.

Colleen
Nicole
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Username: Nicole

Post Number: 14
Registered: 4-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

my husband's cousin (who is a very liberal sda)agrues that if you are saved through grace alone why do the gospels and NT go through certain behaviors and morals a christian should keep if it doesn't really matter (since we are expected to sin). he feels it is permission for some christians to do what they want because their faith alone will save them.
he is very logical when he explains things so his interpretation makes sense to my husband.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4388
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 1:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You know, the argument your husband's cousin uses, Nicole, is very persuasive only before someone actually knows Jesus. Once you know Him, the issue is no longer, primarily, fighting SIN. The issue now is submitting to Jesus. It's completely different to struggle with sin than it is to surrender one's temptations to Jesus the Person and say Yes to Him. It's not about will power anymore!

It's a difference impossible to logically explain to one who doesn't know the power of a relationship with Jesus.

Colleen
Doggy
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Username: Doggy

Post Number: 15
Registered: 3-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 12:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bless you all. I've been working at my new job and it's been long hours with little sleep. It's good to post again. I've since had a face to face talk with my dad which was sad but illuminating and my sister has returned from New Mexico from her latest affair. On top of all that I have wrestled with my flesh for the last two weeks.

I'm a simple man now. I don't try to become tangled in the details. The gospel is blessedly simple to me. I have accepted Christ at his word and the spirit is my guarantee, now I strive to put my life in line with the principles outlined throughout the new testament. Colleen, you are right on in your post July 23, 8:45 PM.

Wrestling with my flesh shouldn't imply much, I just went through some time where my faith needed testing. It was easy for me to be discouraged and angry recently. My prayers felt cold and reading the bible was boring. Quite frankly I haven't felt much connection to Jesus in the last couple weeks. During that time I confess I fought with Hannah a bit and I even took the Lords name in vain a couple times. I could go on beating myself here but I don't want to give the wrong impression. I didn't turn away from God. The split second I sinned I repented. The one thing I did almost constantly was to pray. So many days went by without feeling God yet I always knew he was there. My faith in Christ carried me through this short time and I feel a little bit more mature. I never doubted salvation or forgiveness and towards the end I suspected this was a teaching moment.

Hannah read me some of her archived posts here from years ago. Wow. God is so good. Looking back I see how much sicker I was then. The closer I get to Christ the more I see how far I fall short of his glory. This last couple weeks, without much detail, has brought me even closer to Jesus.

I had hoped my dad had doubts about adventism but after talking to him it appears he is very twisted yet solid in his position. I don't believe I can reach him. It's pretty obvious to me his intent is to bring me back for the sake of my own salvation. Nothing more is to be gained with debate. I just need to pray for him and continue growing in Christ. My greatest testimony must be the quiet witness of my life transformed.

My sister is a different front. She just returned from New Mexico. She went down for about six days to cheat on her husband. Neither of them are close to saved and it's to long of a story to tell. Suffice it to say she supports him and he is somewhat aware of her affairs and they both go in and out of meth use. Three messed up little girls are involved and their only emotional rock is my adventist mom who keeps shoving it at everyone.

My sister is making shadowy references to suicide based upon disobeying God, again. Once again I have told her it's because she doesn't really know who God is. Ahhh, my heart goes out for you all, and especially for you Colleen. I can't wait to hug you in heaven. Your ministry goes beyond words. Just like Hannah over all those years I am weeping for people I love.

David
Mwh
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Username: Mwh

Post Number: 114
Registered: 4-2006


Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 2:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I so liked your frase "God is good" Yes, amen!

I pray for you and your family, may the will of God be done.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4398
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 3:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Paul has a wonderful passage in Colossians 3 which I see as His will and blessing for this forum community:

"Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clother yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

"Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him" (Col 3:12-17).

Praying for you, David, and praising God for what He has already done in and for you.

Colleen
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 2265
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

David, I will keep your families special needs in my prayers.

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