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Peperpat
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Username: Peperpat

Post Number: 6
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 1:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have gotten alot of wonderful website resources from many of you and am reading my bible and praying for guidance regarding the Saturday Sabbath. My new question is, if we are not under the law anymore, are Christians required to tithe 10% to the church? Every time I make a little headway, something else trips me up!
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 4336
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Peperpat, tithing is never required in the New Testament. Generosity is a NT principleóbut an amount is never mentioned. The reason, I believe, is that when we belong to Christ, all we have and are belongs to Him. He asks us to surrender to Him everything He gives us, and He convicts us of what He wants us to give and to whom. (Remember the widow's two mites?)

When Jesus nailed the law to the cross as the Living Torah or Living Word, all those speicifc demands israel was given were fulfilled in Him. As Christ-followers we are to respond to Himónot to an external rule.

I'm sure others will have even more detailed resources; I know that Dennis Fischer has made a detailed study of tithing and can give a rich background of information regarding this subject.

Colleen
Peperpat
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Username: Peperpat

Post Number: 7
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Colleen. At least that makes sense to me. The trouble is, Christian churches I have attended in the past have used "tithing" as a principle and to pressure people into giving...but then the question is, if you keep one law, why not all.
Flyinglady
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Post Number: 2676
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 4:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My pastor believes in tithing. When I took him some books about adventism last Sept, I talked to him about tithing also. Although he knew what I was talking about he said he tithes. What I told him is that God loves a cheerful giver. I told him my history of adventism and that I cringe every time I hear the word tithe. He is aware of what the New Covenant says and he does not preach that all members should tithe. He was very gracious, as he he had preached a sermon about 2 weeks before on stewardship and mentioned tithing.
I give as God impresses me to give and at times I have given more than I would if I tithed.
So, I do not listen when tithing is mentioned.
Diana
U2bsda
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Post Number: 66
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 4:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe as a new covenant believer all we have belongs to God, not just 10%. We should never love anything we have so much that we cannot give it where God leads. Giving and generosity are encouraged in the New Testament. I do believe we should follow God's leading regarding giving and regarding stewardship of all our possessions.
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 71
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 6:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We have a "cheerful giver" sermon every year, and I know that some members of my Lutheran church tithe, my parents included. However, it's never been a "command" to give 10%. I've always understood (probably from my parents) that tithing helps the business part of the church. Pays the utilities, our wonderful pastor and secretary, and most importantly supports the charities we are connected with. It's never been a pressure thing.

On the other hand, a friend of mine when to a Presbyterian church where the pastor didn't believe in having offering. They had a box in the back of the church for anyone who felt compelled to give. I often wondered how they were able to handle the finances, but they seemed to be a prosperous church.

I suppose this is a church to church decision?
Peperpat
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Post Number: 8
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 6:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, it probably is. The church we had attended for several years made it a point to preach regarding tithing several times a year. It was almost to the point where you would not be blessed by God if you failed to do so. We were told we were 'robbing God' if we did not tithe. Now that I am studying the old law vs New Covenant, it didnt seem to fit.
Raven
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Post Number: 515
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Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 6:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Churches that promote tithing will always be a sore point with me. That was the catalyst that opened my eyes to the doctrinal problems with the SDA church.

The way I see it, the New Covenant completely replaced the Old Covenant. Tithing was a part of the Old Covenant. The original tithing commands were a way to give a tithe from the land increase and animal increase to those who did not own land or animals (including the poor and widows). By the way, it wasn't even the first tenth that was given, but every tenth. So if you only had 9 of something, you kept all 9 and didn't give a tithe. Fishermen, carpenters, merchants, etc. didn't have to pay any tithe at all. What gives a church the right to "principalize" God's Old Covenant commands and make them monetary requirements for all today, even the poor? It just confuses people. Out with the old and in with the new. In the New Covenant system, it's all freewill offerings as each believer is led by the Holy Spirit. That's it.

Our church also has a "cheerful giver" sermon every year (thankfully it's only once a year). In the latest one of those the pastor said people can give whatever they want and can tithe if they want, but no particular amount is necessary and that all giving decisions are between the individual and God including even IF anything is given to this particular church. However, he still used the Malachi 3:10 verse for that week and I didn't like that because that verse does not apply to Christians!
Peperpat
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Post Number: 9
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 7:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Can someone explain what 'prooftexting' is?
Raven
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Username: Raven

Post Number: 516
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Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 7:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Basically "prooftexting" means lifting single verses out of their context to prove a position. SDA's are pretty good at this. Our SDA Bible Doctrines class in academy (high school) spent a great deal of time learning all the classic verses that "prove" the various SDA doctrines. I don't recall EVER reading an entire chapter at a time in any Bible class, or Sabbath School class. We would sometimes read whole paragraphs of Ellen White, but when it came to the Bible, only the specific verses that addressed the topic were read. But when they're read on their own and removed from the chapter they sit in, it can put an entirely different slant on things.
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 72
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 8:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven, that's unbelievable! Indoctrinate and protect. That just makes me so mad. I think I could understand that whacky teaching in Sabbath School, but to actually do that in day school makes me sick.
Flyinglady
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Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 2678
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 8:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven,
I remember doing the "proof texts" in my Bible also.
In college at LaSierra, we used the DoA for our Bible class on the life of Jesus. The Bible was only incidental.
Glad those are memories now.
Diana
Raven
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Username: Raven

Post Number: 517
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Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 8:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As a reminder of those days, I have hung on to my academy days KJV Bible that is literally falling apart from much use (my own use, not so much from school). In the front and back blank pages, we were required to write down the doctrine, list the texts that support it, put a brief explanation as to how it's arrived at, and we also were to include a brief explanation as to why mainstream beliefs in these areas were wrong. I don't know that we covered every single doctrine, but the main ones are in there.
Lynne
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Username: Lynne

Post Number: 473
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Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is my understanding that prooftexting is when someone takes something like a sentence out of a full paragraph and defines the meaning of that sentence without taking into account the whole paragraph.

For instance, have you ever said something to somebody and they stopped you short of what you were saying and misunderstood your point because you didn't finish what you were saying in context?

When tithing is spoken of in the bible, it is taken out of context when just a sentence is used here and there in the OT to make a point. Like the Sabbath and many other things in the bible, if we just start taking sentences out of the bible all over the place, we can make up a lot of things (anything for that matter). And unfortunately, that is what some leaders do.

They sometimes use proof texts to make points in their favor, like tithing. If I'm looking for justification of a sin, can't I find a sentence somewhere in the bible that will tell me I am forgiven, that God loves me anyway? So, what is wrong with adultery if there is somewhere in the bible where somebody did it like David? Nevermind the consequence, just look at the fact that he committed adultery, look at a sentence or two about David committing adultery. Does this make adultry a Christian, biblical practice?

Unfortunately, there are some churches out there where the leadership uses tithes more for their own benefit. Not so much, or honestly enough, to benefit the church, the widows, the poor, etc. But rather, they tell the poor and the widows that in order to be blessed, that in order to be loved or in order to be a Christian, they need to tithe. Because this sentence says tithe in the OT.. We must tithe..

It leaves some guilt riden poor, making ever greater the burdens of people already oppressed who, for example, may have little to give their own children, while the pastor might justify his opulant lifestyle because he is an optimist and Christ wants more for Him!

I'm not saying an accountable minister shouldn't make a comfortable living. I'm speaking about people like Benny Hinn and Joyce Meyer. I understand they may have some very good things in their ministry that they have done, however, they call the money they get a blessing from God. But where did that money come from anyway? A poor person gives money, tithes, and then God turns around and gives the poor persons money to Joyce Meyer. Okay, that makes sense. Perhaps I'm a bit off the point here, but as a Christian, I do get disgusted with Christians who deceptively prooftext to make a point for their own benefit. Even to the point where they no longer just justify having a Mercedes, but they justify having a $500,000 Mercedes. But a poor person cannot justify not tithing. 1 Peter 5-10, Psalm 50:18.

If teachers, parents or ministers, people in power, misuse their power to oppress, which in some cases, I believe tithing does, it is my belief that they are sinning.

So, for all those people out there whose finances cannot support the tithing message, I don't believe they are guilty of doing anything wrong like they have been told by many ministers. No. It is the ministers proof texting, teaching tithing who are wrong. How many times have we heard this from the pulpit?

However, there are some people who don't know better, especially if they have been taught certain things by the proof text method, as many of us have.



Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 800
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Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 6:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Gospel breeds generosity wherever it takes root. Instead of law-based giving, let us practice Spirit-led giving (grace giving) to finance the Great Commission. Christians have successfully accomplished (by being legally "in Christ") all the duties that God ever gave in a ritualistic sense for people to observe on earth. Christians now reckoned by the Father to be his very own Family (Col. 3:1,2).

We are no longer accounted as physical Israelites, physical Jews or even physical Gentiles (Col. 3:10,11). Christians are now reckoned as a part of the divine Family of God (I John 3:1,2) and we are already "in Christ" reigning in the heavens in the eyes of the Father. Sabbaths, holy days, and rituals are not necessary for members of that divine Family to which we belong--and that includes no more tithing to Levites and no more tithing to Christian ministers (John 5:17,18).

Dennis Fischer
Esther
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Username: Esther

Post Number: 338
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 6:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis, our resident expert on the topic of tithing has several posts you should check out, and the article in proclamation from last year is most excellent

http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/1624.html#POST22199

http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/discus/messages/11/2255.html#POST28891

http://formeradventist.com/proclamationBack.html (and then click on the May/June 2004 issue.
Esther
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Username: Esther

Post Number: 339
Registered: 5-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 7:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ah, thanks Dennis for chiming in. You must have been posting while I was searching for your past comments. Your insights into tithing have been so valuable to me :-)
Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 801
Registered: 4-2000


Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 9:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CORRECTION: Click on the March/April 2004 issue.
Mwh
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Username: Mwh

Post Number: 93
Registered: 4-2006


Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 1:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another good link on tithing is:

http://www.shouldthechurchteachtithing.com/

On it are a good essay which summaries a free book on the topic which also is available there:
http://prayershack.freeservers.com/download_russkellybook.html

Its a free download, but if you would like to you can also buy the book on amazon.com

I have read the essay and some of the book and it has put my mind to ease on this subject.

God doesn't want you money he wants you!
Belvalew
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Username: Belvalew

Post Number: 1053
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 1:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Are we still talking about proof-texting as well as tithing? My favorite way of talking about proof-texting is to use two disparate texts to make a single point. I know I've mentioned it here before, but it's kinda like:

"and Judas went out and hanged himself."
"go thou and do likewise."

With some of the wild proof-texting that can take place, the results are very nearly the same! Particularly if you add in some juicy bit from the SOP.

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