| Author | Message | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 105 Registered: 4-2006  |
Hello everybody! I just got a book from my SDA friend, called "1844 Hecho Simple" (1844 Made Simple) by Clifford Goldstein. I have read the first two chapters. The first chapter is reflected on on Gilbert Jorgensen's blog here: http://blogs.ellenwhitenews.org/gjorgensen/2006/07/20/1844-made-simple/ and here http://blogs.ellenwhitenews.org/gjorgensen/2006/07/21/the-gospel-1844-and-judgment/ I have some comments on the second chapter, basicly Goldstein is laying the foundation that there will be a judgement, but it seems like he confuses the "judgment seat of Christ" (Rom 14:10-12 / 2 Cor 5:10) with the great white throne rev 20:11 and the Investigative Judgement. Like the IJ is supposed to be the "judgment seat of Christ" http://www.gotquestions.org/judgment-seat-Christ.html Which practically destroys the foundation of the book entirely. It realy seems like Goldstein does not know what he is talking about. Another thing I noticed about the book is that it does not list which version of the bible that is used for the biblie quotations. Futhermore each chapter does not have a title, they are just named chapter 1, chapter 2 ... which realy makes it obscure, in the sence that its quite hard to get an overview of the teachings of the book. If you have read the book please give me your opinions and also if you know a site which deals with the book let me know. Also I'm wondering who Clifford Goldstein is, his background etc. I seem to remember his name in connection with if the bible contains contradictions and errores ... Anyone know his view of the bible? If he belives that its inerrant or not? May God comfort you always! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4369 Registered: 12-2003  |
Mwh, Clifford Goldstein is a Jew who converted to Adventism. He is the principle contributor and editor of this quarter's Sabbath School Quarterly which is about the investigative judgment. As I've been reading through the quarterly, I also see exactly what you are describing. Goldstein does not distinguish between judgment for salvation and judgment for rewards. Adventism does not teach a judgment for rewards. As Adventists, we all believed the Bible texts re: God judging us and our subsequently receiving our rewards were referring to SALVATION. Adventists never teach 1 Corinthians 3, where Paul says that if a believer builds upon the foundation of Christ with works made of wood, hay, and stubble, those works will be burned up, but the person will be saved as one escaping through the flames. Further, Adventists never distinguish between judgment for REWARDS and SALVATION because they imply (or outright interpret) the rewards God gives as being salvation. This is unbiblical, as salvation is not a reward; it is a GIFT. Yet I and all the Adventists I know always believed that in the passages about rewards, the Bible was referring to salvation. This lack of distinction between rewards and salvation is probably inevitable since no matter how they try to explain it away, they still believe that one's works are part of one's qualification for salvation. So yes, I agreeóGoldstein does not know what he is talking about in this instance. He also interprets "rewards" to mean "salvation"óand he ignores the troublesome passage in 1 Corinthians 3. Goldstein also wrote the book "Graffitti in the Holy of Holies", a refutation of Dale Ratzlaff's book "Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventists". Goldstein's book is convoluted, condescending, and hard to follow. He defends the investigative judgment and uses, as part of his persuasion, the technique of subtly mocking or ridiculing Ratzlaff in his references to his book. Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 81 Registered: 6-2006  |
Mwh and Colleen, What are some good "rewards" passages? The one way my husband and I agree about Heaven is that you're present with God which is a reward on it's own. I'd love to share some good scriptures with him and the kids regarding rewards. Thanks! Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4372 Registered: 12-2003 |
The best passage is 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. Also, 1 Cor. 4:5 corroborates this idea as does 2 Cor. 5:10. Also, see Matthew 16:27, Romans 2:14-16, 14:10 (notice this passage is addressed to believers), Ephesians 6:7-8. Hope this helps! Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 82 Registered: 6-2006 |
Thanks Colleen! Those were good ones. I especially liked 2 Cor. 5:10... "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." I can see where some would take the word "Judgement" and automatically put it in the negative condemning context. Instead, I see it as a decision.  Blessings to you today! | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2247 Registered: 11-2002 |
Colleen, I think I remember from Cradel Roll that the SDA church does teach a rewards system. We were taught that for every person that we wittnessed the truth to who became a member of God's true church we'd get another stone in our crown. At the same time we were taught that wearing jewlery was a sin. Kind of a sinful rewards system? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4376 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh, Susanóyou're right! We'd get stars in our crowns. I was taught we'd have one star for every person we led into the kingdom. I don't remember learning that living by the Spirit and doing what God places before us as an offering to Him would bring rewards, though. I believe that our star-rewards depended upon our leading people to Christóer, into the Adventist church. Colleen | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 307 Registered: 6-2001  |
You gotta love how Adventists name their books. We received "The Sanctuary Made Simple" from David's dad the other day. It's almost as if they (Adventists) are saying. "We are really dumbing down our doctrines for you. If you still can't understand them, it's your fault and not ours." Of course a pretty universal truth is, if you have to tell someone something is simple, it usually means it is not! | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 84 Registered: 6-2006 |
They need to publish "Investigative Judgement for Dummies"... | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2253 Registered: 11-2002 |
About SDA doctrines made simple-several years ago in the Review or the Recorder was an article about a lady who had converted to the SDA religion because she was an account, therefore very good with math. After learning of the 1844 doctrine it just all fit mathmatically in place and viola! she became a SDA. i remember when I was reading that article just thinking, 'Well, I did not major in math and their 1844 doctrine makes no sense to me and Jesus said the gosple should be simple enough for a child to understand so I'll astick with what Jesus said and not pursue a math degree.' | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 229 Registered: 12-2004 |
Ah...Sabbath School memories. I too was taught that there would be a star in my crown for each person I led to the Adventist Church. I often wondered how guys like Eric B. Hare or HMS Richards would ever be able to have neck muscles strong enough to hold their crowns up. I suspect there has to be an Ellen White quote to that effect for us all to have heard the same thing! Now, if my questioning and then leaving Adventism in some small way influences someone else to study and think for themselves and then leave Adventism, would I have a star retracted or taken away? There are just too many questions. Hannah, I suspect "The Sanctuary Made Simple" is probably directed to the SDA layman as most I have questioned, and spoken to lately really do not have a clue about the details of the IJ, and are at a loss as to what to say when presented with the multitude of Salvation Assurance verses, such as John 5:24. Leigh Anne, "Investigative Judgement for Dummies"....Good One! | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 520 Registered: 7-2004  |
Yes, I too was taught about stars in the crown for each person we witnessed to who made it to heaven, and I'm pretty sure that comes from EGW. In fact, this reminds me of an SDA storybook I read as a kid. I can't recall the name of it, but it was a mission story from probably the late 1800's or early 1900's and a lady was asked to sing "Will there by Any Stars in my Crown" at an SDA evangelistic meeting. Her response was she would, but would like to change it to "Will there by Many Stars in my Crown" because "we're told that everyone who makes it to heaven will have brought at least one other person." I can only assume that means EGW said some such thing. These stories sure stick in one's brain! That's why I'd be especially careful of allowing SDA propaganda in my home. It is woven in and through every book published by SDA's, even if it's not obvious. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1424 Registered: 10-2004  |
Yep, EGW says both of those things, Raven!
So according to the above quote, we can't make it to heaven unless someone else that we influenced makes it to heaven also. That means that in order to make it to heaven, not only do we have to become perfect but we have to count on someone else that we've influenced becoming perfect, too!! Salvation is even out of our own hands, and in the hands of another person (not God)! How absolutely terrifying. On another, lighter note, EGW even says that angels are employed in the crown-making business! I'm serious, I'm not making this up! Look:
And EGW says that jewelry is idolatry, so I guess angels are employed in the idol-making business!! Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on July 25, 2006) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4381 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh, Jeremyóthat would be downright funny if it weren't so pathetic! Yes, I remember hearing that everyone in heaven would have at least one star in their crown. I don't remember the part about angels making the crowns, though!! Colleen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 243 Registered: 11-2005 |
Colleen said
I remember being taught that as well. The children's song however goes, "Precious jewels. Precious jewels." and then something about a crown. My wife had a question. "What happens when more than one person is involved in leading another person into the Adventist Church? Do they split the star?" Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 575 Registered: 8-2004  |
yes, I remember worrying about this - you see if you're the last one reachable before the close of probation who do you reach so that you can get your obligatory star? I'm so thankful that it's between God and me now! Blessings, Mary | ||
| Windmotion Registered user Username: Windmotion Post Number: 308 Registered: 6-2001 |
Mary, I think I have said before on this forum that this doctrine "there will be no one saved in heaven with a starless crown. If you enter, there will be some soul in the courts of glory that has found an entrance there through your instrumentality" is like a Ponzi or pyramid scheme. The people on the bottom of the pyramid when Jesus comes back will be bumped because they didn't get a chance to witness to someone. But then I was wondering. If those people get bumped, then do the people above them get bumped as well, since they will now be bringing no one to heaven with them. It would be a giant chain reaction! Molecularly, Hannah | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 100 Registered: 7-2005  |
You're all so hilarious!!! I'm sitting here about to fall out of my chair for laughing so hard! It is SOOOOO nice to have people I can laugh with about these crazy doctrines that have bothered me for so many years. Have a Wonderful Wednesday! Honestwitness | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1425 Registered: 10-2004 |
I think you're right, Hannah. That quote from EGW means that there is a 100% chance that absolutely no one will be in heaven! So, what's the point of following such a hopeless religion as that?? Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on July 26, 2006) | ||
| Insideoutsider Registered user Username: Insideoutsider Post Number: 37 Registered: 6-2002 |
Listen you all, you have missed the point - There aren't jewels in that crown. Haven't you heard the joke that when an SDA gets to the pearly gates, St.Peter has a special crown with a "Big Ben" in the center for them. Or am I the only one old enough to remember that when you got engaged, you wore a new watch on your right hand in lieu of an engagement ring? I am joining you in giggling, Honestwitness | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 231 Registered: 12-2004 |
In 1980 my wife got a watch when we became engaged. It took 24 and a half years, but she now happily wears that engagement ring she would have preferred way back then. | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 91 Registered: 11-2004 |
My mom did the engagement watch thing, but my siblings and I have used rings. Funny joke insideoutsider How about a brooch or tie tack? Funny thing about jewelry - SDAs say that they only wear useful items like watches, etc. But a tie has no other purpose than adornment. Put a tie tack on top of that and then you are using adornment to hold onto adornment | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2699 Registered: 3-2004  |
I received a beautiful Omega white gold watch in Dec 1964 and it is still running. When we divorced, I kept it because it is such a nice watch. A jeweler looked it over and it is worth a lot at this time. Haven't met anyone to give me an engagement ring, but that is okay. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4382 Registered: 12-2003 |
I received a watch for my first engagementóand Richard got me a watch, too. A few years later, though, as we were exiting the church, he bought me a wedding set for our 11th anniversary. I loved itómy dad was still alive at the time, and he smiled indulgently while my mom positively drooled! My sister and I subsequently got her a mother's ring for her birthday. We had it custom made with our birthstones, and she wears it now with her wedding ring. I remember hearing someone jokingly summarize the Adventist jewelry "rule" this way: if the jewelry touches the skin, it's taboo. If it's worn on the clothes, like a pin or tie tack, it's permissable. As for those often elaborate watchesówhy, they're not jewelry, of course! They're functional necessities, don't you know. Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 577 Registered: 8-2004 |
A well dressed SDA friend of mine once moaned to me that it would be so much easier to just use jewelry. She found it frustrating to and more costly to get a variety of watches to coordinate with her outfits instead of smaller, less expensive, rings, necklaces, or earrings. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 340 Registered: 5-2004 |
A creative member of the Andrews administration wears a beautiful gold necklace, which she slips a pen onto so that she's never with out a pen...which has instigated the coining of the term around campus "stick a pen on it" | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 464 Registered: 2-2001 |
Ok my day is made. You guys are a hoot! I sat through a sermon once from a lay pastor who said he would not put adornment on himself, but wait for heaven and let Jesus give him his jewels. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2701 Registered: 3-2004 |
I have had to admit, since becoming a Christ follower that I LIKE JEWELRY. I could not admit it as an SDA because wearing/liking it was a sin. I look at it like this: God put those beautiful stones and metals on this earth for us to enjoy, so I enjoy them. I adorn myself, tastefully and enjoy it so much. Diana | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2260 Registered: 11-2002 |
I watched an interview awhile back with Elizabeth Taylor. It may have been with Larry King, I'm not sure who did the interview. Anyway, the person doing the interview asked her about her love of beautiful jewlery. She commented that of all the beautiful things God's given people to enjoy she enjoys the jewels the most, how they are taken in a rough and dirty form and polished and made so pretty and she enjoys their beauty so much. And, I really was struck with that and immediatelly thought, "Yes, Mrs. Taylor is right. God gave us those pretty stones to enjoy." And, I once again realized how bent my religious upbringing uas in that rather focusing on Christ and the beautiful giftss God has given us the religion focused on what we cannot have, do or be part of or enjoy. |
