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Archive through August 08, 2006Susan_220 8-08-06  10:34 pm
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Belvalew
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Username: Belvalew

Post Number: 1057
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 11:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Susan. It has been a while. I've been expending my internet addiction on CARM for a while. There are times when you think you might be getting through to people, but the best way I've been able to see that at all is when nobody even bothers to answer you back.

I don't worry a whole lot about that because when I had my aha moment I was unable to answer back myself--I was simply struck dumb, but God used that inability to respond to bring Elder Ratzlaff's books into my life and I finally found the full assurance of the Gospel.

As I mentioned, we got off on a tangent talking about the IJ and its need for there to be soul-sleep in order for it to work. I have learned that even the Adventist ministers cannot come up with a consistent motif when it comes to this doctrine. I am so grateful to be free of that confusion. At any rate, we started speculating about the people that Jesus had raised from the dead (Jairus's daughter, the widow's son, and Lazarus). We were wondering if those people died again, or were they members of the wave sheaf that Jesus took with him to Heaven upon his assention. In the legends about Lazarus, someone pointed out that it was rumored that a town was named after him as "The Man Who Died Twice." I'm sure there are even more sources on the internet regarding Lazarus, Mary and Martha. Some of it has to be carefully extracted from myths and legends of the sort that gave rise to DaVinci Code types of nonsense.

God bless you Susan. I'm living on the bitter edge of collapse myself, and I'm having to constantly fight the battle to stay on Disability. I'd love to go back to work, but my lower spine is flakey, with two bulging disks. Had an epidural last week to inject the area with cortizone, but either it hasn't taken effect yet, or it won't. My history with cortizone has not been good. I'm still experiencing about the same degree of pain, and my left side still goes numb when I'm on my feet for too long (five minutes it starts to feel tingly, and by the time a half hour rolls around my left foot feels like a brick I'm dragging around).

I pray for you, your sons, and your grandchildren. I'm unclear--are you still in Hawaii?
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4448
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 6:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, BelvaóI am so sorry. Praying for you...

Colleen
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2

Post Number: 2288
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 9:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Belva, I have your mailing address so I will send you a pretty picture postcard soon. Yes, I am homeless, living in my car in Hawaii. I just pray and pray and pray that my daughter-in-laws heart with soften and she will let me be with the children. I was blessed that I had the money for a car and then I was more blessed that I got a job only a few days later. Pray, please that my 20 year old soon lands employment. I will pray for and about your physical limataons, Belva. One thing sure is true. It's sure pretty over here and the weather is nice.
Wolfgang
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Username: Wolfgang

Post Number: 91
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ok I'm playing devils advocate here,but if Lazarus was in heaven wasnt it kinda cruel to bring him back?( a famous SDA argument)I mean if I die tomorrow I'd kinda like to stay in heaven with the Lord then come back and suffer through life.As an former it really did bring me comfort to think that my mom was sleeping until the Lord woke her up so she didnt see my dad spiral into alcolism,and other struggles in her family.
Belva I would like to correspond with you via email,my husband suffer with back issues has had L3-5 fused and now 1 and 2 are bulging,like you the one thing he wants to do is work and he doesnt know from one day to the next what kind of a day he's going to have standing or sitting is hard for him too,right now he's having a bad flare up. His uncle has offered to pay for a procedue called Rolfing,he went yesterday I'll let you know if that is helping him it's either this works or another surgery. :-( The rolfer is a christian and prayed with my hubby and my hubby was honest with him and told him he's been angry with God,because he more than anything just wants to work,the rolfer suggested that he change his prayer life and already claim the healing,instead of asking God to heal him,claim the healing,I'm praying that hubby will just get back in pursuit of God throught this.
Sorry fourm I went off subject at hand. anyway belva my email is wolfgang@mei.net
Dawn
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1449
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Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 3:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dawn,

Lazarus was not in heaven, since this was before Jesus' death, resurrection and ascension. He was in Hades in the center of the earth--in a place of comfort called Abraham's Bosom. (Of course, with Dorcas it was after Jesus' ascension--and so the argument could be made with her.)

But that same argument could be used for the man in 2 Corinthians 12 who was caught up to heaven. Wasn't it "cruel" for God to make him come back? In fact, since Paul says that it is "very much better" to die than to live--isn't it "cruel" that God makes any of us keep living?

It's funny that the SDAs use this "Lazarus argument," when their own Ellen White claimed to have gone to heaven in vision and was upset when God made her come back to earth! (Although, ironically, I believe it was Ellen that used the Lazarus argument in her writings.)

The bottom line though, is that God is Sovereign--He does whatever He pleases to accomplish His purposes. Even if it seems "cruel" to us.

As for the dead who are in heaven, even if they could see what was going on on earth, wouldn't it be less suffering than what we go through when we are actually on earth--especially since they are with Jesus Himself? Certainly being with Jesus is better than being non-existent. In fact, Paul even says that it is "very much better" "to depart and be with Christ" than to "live on in the flesh" (Philippians 1:21-24).

Jeremy

(Message edited by jeremy on August 11, 2006)
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 121
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 5:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy, I have a question...

What are the differences of Sheol/Hades/Abrahams Bosom? What happened to these places? Also, do you know some good passages about them? From what I understand, Sheol was actually a prison.

:-)Thanks
Leigh Anne
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 1453
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leigh Anne, my pastor did a sermon on hell on June 9 and 10. If you'd like to listen online you can here. www.lcc.org/resources/sermons/ You can also download it as a podcast if you have itunes or some other such software.

Then scroll down and find the date above. It's not an exhaustive study, but it is good, I think. It actually talks about this passage.
Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1450
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 6:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leigh Anne,

Sheol and Hades are the same place. Sheol is the Hebrew word (Old Testament) and Hades is the Greek word (New Testament). Abraham's Bosom (aka Paradise) was the section of Sheol/Hades where the righteous went when they died (before Christ's resurrection), and was a place of comfort (Luke 16). The other section of Sheol/Hades is what we call "hell" (at least the current temporary hell, before the Great White Throne Judgment and eternal hell/lake of fire), and is a place of torment where the wicked go when they die. These two sections of Sheol/Hades were separated by a great chasm (Luke 16:26).

Jeremy

(Message edited by jeremy on August 11, 2006)
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 122
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Melissa - I'll definitely check that out. I listen to a lot of audio on my morning walks, so that will be one I'd like to hear.

Jeremy, thank you as well. That's pretty much what I thought, (although I didn't realize that one was Hebrew and one was Greek, duh!) but it's been about 10 years since I've done a good Bible study on it. It's very helpful since we say the Apostle's Creed at my church once every few weeks. I've always wanted to explain better "He decended into Hell" to my SDA husband and my kids.

By the way, I'll be attending Sabbath services with my family tomorrow - first time in a reeeeally looooooong time. I'm a little nervous for my kids, although I love our family and I don't want to appear that I'm nervous. I don't even know how to pray about that...

Or if I even should?

:-)

Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1451
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 10:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leigh Anne,

Definitely pray for your kids, that they'll be protected from deception and false teaching. But I'll be honest: if it was me, there is no way I would ever take my kids to SDA services--too dangerous. Are they going to "Sabbath school"? If so they are bound to pick up some false teaching--and maybe believe it. Who knows what they will be taught.

Jeremy

(Message edited by jeremy on August 11, 2006)
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4451
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 12:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leigh Anne, I'm praying now for you and your kids. Do your kids normally go to Sabbath services? It seems they don'tóand neither does your husband. Am I remembering right?

God can protect them even there, and I'm praying that they will sense the difference between that church and your own. I know that when our boys were young, they were actually very sensitive to spiritual overtones, and there were certain SDA churches that they felt were uncomfortable. I remember one day when our older son was 9 years old, he casually mentioned to us in the car one day, "I think Elder ______plays with evil."

It took me off guard, but actually I had a similar feeling....

God can portect and impress them, and that's what I'm praying.

Colleen
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 123
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 8:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen and Jeremy, thank you so much. That means a lot to me!

My husband has 4 siblings, two of whom live out of town and out of state. Needless to say, it's not very often when we're all together at the same time. This weekend everyone is together and today, all the brothers and sisters and grandkids will be visiting the SDA church with Grandma and Grandpa.

Colleen, everyone is SDA except for me and our two children, and yes, my husband hasn't been an active SDA since we married 12+ years ago. He still considers himself SDA but has come with me to our Lutheran church for the last 3 years.

At this age, our kids are still little and may not realize that it's Saturday, but they may wonder why everyone keeps saying "Happy Sabbath". Jeremy, I didn't want to take them to Sabbath School, and thankfully my husband didn't argue with me.

I do want to honor my in-laws, and show them our love in worshipping with them. I've always tried to be sensitive to them and their faith. But now that I understand so much more about the SDA church and all of my earlier suspicions have been realized, I'm scared!

Which is why I was a little confused as how to pray about it...

One thing of comfort, I know the Pastor and his wife, and many members, just from family functions. They all know me, know I'm not SDA, and have been very respectful through the years.

Thank you again so much for the prayers. I will pray too for the kids' protection and discernment.

Leigh Anne
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 124
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 8:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry - one last thing. Will you please pray for my husband Wayne as well? My prayer is that he'll be able to see through the false teachings and be set free from them. I worry that he'll be drawn back into it.

Thanks :-)
Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 125
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 7:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen and Jeremy -

thanks for your prayers! The service yesterday was non-eventful and thankfully EGW was never mentioned. Our daughter stayed busy drawing (she's 7) and our little boy (he just turned 5)slept the whole time. :-)

The pastor actually read from scripture a lot, starting at John 6:25, "29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." Ironic. Of course the sermon was not about that, but it sure got my attention!

I underlined that verse in the pew Bible...

Anyway, thanks again for your supportive prayers. You bless me

Leigh Anne
Melissa
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Username: Melissa

Post Number: 1457
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 8:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doesn't the term 'the work' mean something different in SDA circles than non? I heard B's dad preach a sermon talking about "the work" and thought it was an SDA thing.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4455
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Sunday, August 13, 2006 - 10:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Meslisa, the term "the work" normally refers, within Adventism (but not in reference to the text in John to which Leigh Anne referred), to the Adventist "work" which includes its medical and educational and conference administrative facilities (including pastors). If a person says proudly of one's son or daughter, "He's been in 'the work' since he graduated from college," the hearer will understand that to mean the person in question is employed by the church is some capacity. The appropriate follow-up question for that statement would be, "Oh, what does he do?"

The answer would then identify said person's venue of SDA employment.

Leigh Anne, I pray daily for Wayne. You're concern re: his possible temptation to being sucked back in is not trivial. As long as he is still Adventist, there is always the possibility that given the right circumstances, he may feel guilt-stricken or manipulated into going back.

I pray he will come to know Jesus fully and without reservationóso that he will be willing to lay all beliefs aside in favor of knowing and belonging to Him.

Colleen

Grace_alone
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Username: Grace_alone

Post Number: 127
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 9:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, thank you so much! I don't know what I'd do without the support and comfort of you and FAF.

*((HUG))*

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